Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[lrt's friend]

A new track on rail

The Ottawa Citizen


Wednesday, November 19, 2008


For years, the light-rail issue operated in a vacuum.

Debate after debate occurred in committee at Ottawa City Hall but the public didn't care. When the citizenry finally became interested during the last election, long after the original north-south project had passed council, people did so with very little knowledge of the plan or its alternatives. The result was the plan was struck down by a new council so Ottawa was left with an even more dated transit system.

Credit where credit is due. Councillors Christine Leadman and Clive Doucet have generated interest in an alternative rail plan. They packed the Gladstone Theatre to unveil the plan and got a large response from the media. That's good for the debate, choice and democracy.

The plan raises some interesting points. It suggests an environmental assessment to choose between the Ottawa River Parkway and Carling Avenue for the main east-west line. Not a bad idea.

And it suggests starting rail sooner than the staff plan suggests. It's hard to argue with that as well. The Leadman-Doucet plan has generated interest. Good on those two councillors.

© The Ottawa Citizen 2008

The above was an Ottawa Citizen editorial today.

We will see today whether the Transit Committee takes the Doucet-Leadman plan at all seriously. I have my doubts and I think that will be too bad.

[c_speed3108]

Just as an FYI, the first double decker bus has arrived at OC...

[lrt's friend]

Make this the final discussion

By KERRY THOMPSON


if city council's going to sit down and discuss staff's latest transit plan, they might as well discuss the one proposed by councillors Christine Leadman and Clive Doucet yesterday. and any others that anyone wants to pull out of their back pocket.

But then, that's it. We need to get this new transit system built.

If city staff want council to approve a plan that's different from the one that got the thumbs up last spring, there's no reason other plans (ones for which specifics and costs are provided) can't be considered.

Leadman and Doucet's plan does address a problem with the scenario currently before council -- namely city staff's plan to take light rail along the Ottawa River Parkway, land owned by the National Capital Commission and for which the city still has to negotiate its use. The plan introduced yesterday would take light rail along Carling Ave. instead.

The duo's plan, however, with the assertion that light rail can be built to Baseline Rd. from Blair Rd. in five years, and that there be no new funding for buses, sounds over ambitious.

Yesterday, Doucet said, "The harsh reality of the present plan is that most of the councillors on council will have passed away before there's a city-wide electric service." In fact, that could very well happen with his plan, too, or with any plan.

While Leadman and Doucet yesterday said their plan has a lower overall cost, it still includes a downtown tunnel, the one piece of this puzzle that poses the biggest challenge, both in an engineering sense and in terms of cost overruns.

And it will still irk councillors in the wards furthest from the downtown, where new transit is not expected for years.

Doucet and Leadman have a plan on paper. If anyone else wants to come forward with one they should do it now -- committee discussions on the transit system begin this week; council tackles it next week.

And this time, the decisions that are made need to be final. Councillors need to figure out what's best for the citizens of this city, and stick with it.

Yes, it is time to get beyond lines on paper.

[Deez]

Originally Posted by Franky

How can there be 7 minutes difference with a grade-separated route? Someone obviously made some assumptions others did not or there is a mistake. Who is right? Do you have a link to the report?

Edit: staff report: http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/public_co...ft_plan/images/final_staff_report_en.pdf
This Delcan report http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/trc/2008/11-10/Document%204%20-%20Carling%20Avenue.pdf
says "Travel time: The following is a comparison of the estimated travel times using these two corridors:
�� Western Parkway – between Lincoln Fields and Bayview Stations (7.6km): 13 minutes
�� Carling Avenue – between Lincoln Fields and Bayview Stations (8.7km): 15 minutes
"
Where did staff get 20 minutes?

Good question. I'm not sure if that's a typo or if there's something more to it. The Carling Tech Memo assumes the average operating speeds are roughly the same...Suzie pointed out this is unlikely because Doucet/Leadman planned more stops along Carling. Plus you've got two awkward 90 degree turns.

Speaking of which, Morrison Renfrew conveniently didn't cost that very complicated junction...it would require a significant amount of excavation and/or tunneling.

[Deez]

Originally Posted by Doucet/Leadman/Citizen

Proposals calls for Carling route within 5 years

Impossible. Or at very least, improbable. The tunnel is not slated for completion for at least 7 years; their proposal could not have a first phase operational any faster than what is currently on the table because of that restriction.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Regarding the 5 year time line, Christine pointed out that while the tunnel is being planned and constructed, the Carling plan could be advancing as well and construction also taking place. Because the Western Transitway is not being interfered with, there are fewer complications or disruptions. Eventhough the tunnel may take 8 to 10 years to complete, it is quite possible that a Carling route (and others) could be operational sooner.

Last time our bankrollers were presented with a rail line that ended before downtown (which was when staff tried to save the NS line by chopping out the downtown portion), they took their money and ran. It didn't fly then and it won't fly with this either...the downtown has to be part of the first phase.

[Deez]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

Jane is one of them. 1300 in peak hour.

The Jane corridor's 2021 ridership is pegged at 19 million, which is about a fifth of OC Transpo's entire system ridership for last year....

Jeopardize what? It was supposed to be a NEW plan.

Millions of dollars? Years of planning? All to have two politicians peddling easy answers take over? I hope not.

It's a completely new plan from the old 2003 TMP.

[Deez]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

Just as an example, does anyone really believe that the public wants only two stations downtown? I'm willing to bet that the public is almost universally opposed to that; however, apparently due to insurmountable engineering reasons, the core simply cannot have anymore. Nevertheless, most people are well aware that the subway in Toronto operates at very high frequencies through the core with stations spaced very closely together and negotiating extremely tight curves and thus are rather suspicious of the staff assessment.

I'm not very familiar with this issue...what were the engineering problems presented that restricted the number of stations to 2?

[Deez]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

Which is why Carling is so expensive, it won't be a streetcar in any way, there will be underpasses for streets, but will still be at grade. It won't be different from the Parkway. It's 3x the price that city puts for a streetcar. Start reading the reports and posts before complaining about a streetcar, you know I would be the first one to do so!

The city plan is based on a glorified streetcar technology, so be mad at the staff plan instead. The Carling route in the official plan is a streetcar, it isn't in Doucet's plan. The consultant that Clive hired even said that building a streetcar in this day an age is sending money through a rat's hole..

The only difference between Doucet/Leadman's Carling LRT and staff's streetcar (aside from the number of stops) is the provision of 3 grade separated intersections.

I'm also unclear on how they propose to run LRT down the O-train trench without impacting the operation of the O-train during construction. All costing that I've seen for N-S includes widening of the trench and relocating tracks...

I'd love to hear what Dado thinks of all this...

[Deez]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Cut transit plan to 'realistic' level, city told

Stittsville-Kanata West Councillor Shad Qadri said the current financial problems of governments don't negate the need for transit and the city cannot start to cut out parts of its plan to fit trimmed budgets. He said there's no point in building a downtown tunnel unless you have trains running from Blair Station to Tunney's Pasture.

Arguing that the federal government will benefit from rail transit that delivers loads of workers to government offices, Mr. Qadri said that if the federal and provincial governments can't give Ottawa the money, the city should borrow it from them.

"The time has come for the city to put its foot down and say we need public transit," Mr. Qadri said.

© Ottawa Citizen 2008

Despite his exurban location and past screw-ups, Qadri is quickly becoming one of my favourite councillors.

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by Deez

Millions of dollars? Years of planning? All to have two politicians peddling easy answers take over? I hope not.

Are you talking about this new Doucet/Leadman plan or the 2003 plan (Baird/O'Brien)

[Franky]

Originally Posted by Deez

Good question. I'm not sure if that's a typo or if there's something more to it. The Carling Tech Memo assumes the average operating speeds are roughly the same...Suzie pointed out this is unlikely because Doucet/Leadman planned more stops along Carling. Plus you've got two awkward 90 degree turns.

Speaking of which, Morrison Renfrew conveniently didn't cost that very complicated junction...it would require a significant amount of excavation and/or tunneling.

Turns are negated by having stations at those curves - train must stop anyway.

Actually, I'm pretty sure they did, also a Queensway underpass. To answer another question, they use synchronized traffic lights to get rapid transit speed. Committee refuses to even study the rapid Carling route - something smells rotten.

[lrt's friend]

$7.2B transit plan a step closer to approval

Mayor predicts 'overwhelming support' for deal at next week's meeting

Patrick Dare and Jake Rupert
Ottawa Citizen


Wednesday, November 19, 2008


OTTAWA-The city's new $7.2-billion transportation plan, including the first phase of a city-wide, light rail-based public transit plan, appears headed to approval at city council next week after opposition crumbled at a municipal committee Wednesday.

The transportation plan will shape the way people and goods get around the municipality until 2031, and along with a new land-use plan to be debated in coming months, is designed to create a more compact, environmentally and financially sustainable city that limits sprawl and sees people move from private vehicles to public transit.

The plan includes $2.1 billion of spending on roads and $5.1 billion for a rapid transit system. The first phase of the transit plan is an east-west light-rail line from Blair Road to Tunney's Pasture on the current bus transitway, crossing downtown in a tunnel, and improvements to bus transit to the suburbs.

Eventually, the plan would see light rail running south to Riverside South and to the east and west suburbs when the funding to build it is found and when these areas reach population density targets.

Mayor Larry O'Brien and city manager Kent Kirkpatrick were to meet with Ottawa West-Nepean MPP and Municipal Affairs Minister Jim Watson today to talk about funding the new system. The city is counting on the federal and provincial governments to each pay for one-third of the transit plan. The first stage of the city's plan would cost about $1.7 billion.

"When it gets to council next week, we're going to see overwhelming support for the plan," said Mr. O'Brien, who stressed the experts consulted and public meetings held over the last two years. "I'm absolutely excited about it. This is a major step forward."

There were several attempts to change the city's plan at Wednesday's joint meeting of the transit and transportation committees.

Rideau-Vanier Councillor Georges Bédard tried to delay the entire discussion, saying the debate was too important for the city's future to be rushed. Mr. Bédard said he wanted time to study an alternative transit plan proposed by two colleagues, Capital Councillor Clive Doucet and Kitchissippi Councillor Christine Leadman, only this week. His deferral motion failed.

Mr. Doucet tried to have all road projects carved out and and debated separately, but his motion also was defeated.

Mr. Doucet and Ms. Leadman tried and failed in a 7-2 vote to have the committee adopt their plan, which would build commuter rail along Carling Avenue rather than the Ottawa River Parkway, scrap planned bus system expansion and extend rail service into the suburbs via corridors such as the southeast transitway.

At 7 p.m., Mr. Doucet dropped three additional motions on the committee as councillors adjourned for dinner.

"It's very clear we're going to lose," said Mr. Doucet. "We're just going to go down fighting."

Mr. Doucet then delayed the final vote by introducing three motions to have road expansion projects delayed and insisted on each motion being debated separately.

One of his motions, to shelve the planned construction of the Alta Vista Parkway, lost on a tie vote. His other motions lost.

Ms. Leadman said the alternative transit plan she and Mr. Doucet presented on Monday clearly piqued the public's interest so she was disappointed that her fellow councillors were not willing to change the plan, which she says will put much of the city's money into more buses.

© Ottawa Citizen 2008

So, the plan that builds bus Transitways first is approved by the Transit and Transportation Committee. I would like to know which councillors voted in favour.

I now fully expect to not see light rail in this part of the city in my lifetime. Thank you Mayor O'Brien!

[Franky]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

So, the plan that builds bus Transitways first is approved by the Transit and Transportation Committee. I would like to know which councillors voted in favour.

I now fully expect to not see light rail in this part of the city in my lifetime. Thank you Mayor O'Brien!

None of the councillors (other than Doucet and Leedman) voted in favour of the new phasing/plan because staff didn't have enough information on habd for anybody to make a rational decision, but they had previously voted against deferring the vote to have time to study!? I tell you, the place reeked of corruption.

[MalcolmTucker]

Just because someone doesn't want to go back and study every new permutation and combination of routes, technology, and amount of grade desperation doesn't mean they are corrupt. It doesn't mean they are trying to silence other plans, the vote in fact shows that the city is open and democratic.

If another plans was good enough to get the support of a majority of council then it would be adopted.

Just because they actually want to start building, and not wait another couple years doesn't make them corrupt or wrong.

Sometimes you just need to bite the bullet and go forward.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Deez

The Jane corridor's 2021 ridership is pegged at 19 million, which is about a fifth of OC Transpo's entire system ridership for last year....

From the City of Toronto directly:

Q4) What is the projected annual ridership of the route?
In 2021, forecast ridership for the Jane Street LRT is 19 million riders a year. More recent forecasts (premised on expected development levels to 2031) suggest ridership of 1,700 to 2,200 people per hour in a single direction at the busiest point on the line.

Millions of dollars? Years of planning? All to have two politicians peddling easy answers take over? I hope not.

It's a completely new plan from the old 2003 TMP.

I was talking about the plan brought forward by city staff, it's the same that was presented, no modifications except the streetcar.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Deez

The only difference between Doucet/Leadman's Carling LRT and staff's streetcar (aside from the number of stops) is the provision of 3 grade separated intersections.

I'm also unclear on how they propose to run LRT down the O-train trench without impacting the operation of the O-train during construction. All costing that I've seen for N-S includes widening of the trench and relocating tracks...

I'd love to hear what Dado thinks of all this...

The difference is also that there are gates for stops, these three were the BUSIEST intersections, the rest would be gated like Calgary and Edmonton, which are still rapid transit. It will probably be the same thing for the N-S leg.

[p_xavier]

OMG, we can't engineer a tunnel properly! We must do only two stations!

Paris:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&geo...pn=0.042957,0.111237&t=h&z=14&iwloc=addr

For those saying stations are too close here in the core, I suggest you look at other cities. I know the density is not the same, but they didn't accept failure as an option.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by kyle_olsen

Just because someone doesn't want to go back and study every new permutation and combination of routes, technology, and amount of grade desperation doesn't mean they are corrupt. It doesn't mean they are trying to silence other plans, the vote in fact shows that the city is open and democratic.

If another plans was good enough to get the support of a majority of council then it would be adopted.

Just because they actually want to start building, and not wait another couple years doesn't make them corrupt or wrong.

Sometimes you just need to bite the bullet and go forward.

We're about to spend over $5 Billion on a rail system, we better study all the options, especially an option that's already been engineered and will work! Many of us here, who have spent crazy amounts of time debating this see the merit in this plan. Why don't councillors see it? Why not (at least) study it?

[lrt's friend]

Plan derailed?
Mayor 'blindsided' when transportation committee chairwoman votes against $5.1B transit staging plan
Patrick Dare, The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Thursday, November 20, 2008
OTTAWA - Ottawa's ambitious new public transit plan is in some doubt after a late Wednesday night vote at the end of a 14-hour meeting that saw the chairwoman of city council's transportation committee come out against the proposed staging of projects.

River Councillor Maria McRae shocked her fellow councillors and political aides at City Hall by casting the vote as the exhausting meeting was coming to a close around 11 p.m. She voted against the proposed staging of road and transit projects set out to bring on $5.1-billion worth of projects in an orderly fashion between now and 2031.

By voting no, she created a 5-5 tie and tie votes lose. Other councillors voting against the proposed staging were Capital Councillor Clive Doucet, Kitchissippi Councillor Christine Leadman, Rideau-Vanier Councillor Georges Bédard and Rideau-Rockcliffe Councillor Jacques Legendre.

After casting the voting and seeing the lost outcome Ms. McRae, who was chairwoman of the committee meeting examining the transportation master plan, looked somewhat startled. Mayor Larry O'Brien and Bay Councillor Alex Cullen, chairman of the transit committee, walked over to speak with her. She then left the council chamber through a door to the parking lot and could not be found by reporters.

Mr. O'Brien, who has pushed hard over the last two years to get a new transportation plan through, was clearly angry as he left the council chamber.

"I feel pretty blindsided by this. I was pretty surprised," he said. "We're going to have to fix that at council." He said he thought the council member who runs the transportation committee would be onside for such a critical issue.

"We didn't expect it," said Mr. Cullen, who said the vote was a setback but a fairly minor one in the wider context of the committee's overall approval of the new transportation master plan. Mr. Cullen said approval of the staging will be done at full city council next Wednesday.

The marathon meeting Wednesday, which began at 9:30 a.m., was a joint proceeding of the transportation and transit committees. It heard from public delegations, then heard a number of motions from councillors Doucet and Leadman aimed at changing the staff-written transit plan. Those councillors, supported by Mr. Bedard, argued that there are too many buses and roads in the transportation plan. But their motions consistently went down to defeat, prompting Mr. O'Brien to predict a "healthy majority" of council will approval the plan next week.

That may still happen but the staging issue, when light-rail transit goes east, south and west, is a crucial question for the city. And Ottawa needs a strong vote of city council in support of the transit plan to convince the provincial and federal governments to each pony up one-third of the cost.

The Wednesday meeting went on past 11 p.m. despite the fact that the city's bylaw calls for meetings to end at 11 p.m. The councillors said they wanted to deal with a second issue, the proposed $185-million Baseline transit station that is a key element of the new transit plan.


© The Ottawa Citizen 2008

Wow! After the Citizen article was written around 11pm last night, the staging plan is defeated.

Notice that all the councillors who voted against represented more central parts of the city.

One has to wonder how you can vote on such a massive complex project on the same day that you are receiving public delegations?

Full city council can override the vote of the Transit and Transportation Committee next week, but this means that there will be at least 5 votes against and I am sure that there will be others.

Not exactly overwhelming support as the mayor suggested.

Now, Alex Cullen is suggesting that Maria McRae voted against as a protest for the last plan being defeated. This is pretty insulting and does not bode well for moving forward in a constructive manner.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Wow! After the Citizen article was written around 11pm last night, the staging plan is defeated.

She said earlier that the public didn't want more buses.