Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[Franky]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

I was talking about the plan presented in early 2007, not the 2003 one. My bad for the understanding.

I will say it, we lost two years of LRT, but to finally end up with Transitway conversion, which was OBVIOUSLY, the cheapest way to get rapid transit accross the city. The only part that isn't agreed on, is the part that has no plan for Transitway to be built on, the Parkway and Carling. Millions of dollars for that simple conclusion. And Deez, by city staff number, the Carling route is 1 minute slower than the Parkway one, so it's not really an issue.

You can always stop the LRT at Dominion, plus add an airport spur, that way, your system would still be equalized to 3-3.

An airport spur? That looks like a waste of money in both capital and O&M.

It still has the tunnel in the first phase? Why? If these LRV trains have such high capacity, why not use it? If you build a tunnel, might as well use buses everywhere.

The plan is different because it doesn't build a whole bus transit network to nowhere. The 2007 plan plugs up the city core with a tunnel and rail system and then tries to bring "rapid buses" to transfer points. Silly.

BAE Systems Delivers Hybrid-electric Double-Deck Bus

http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=19645

[waterloowarrior]

Councillors pitch quicker rail remedy
Breaking ranks over new concept rankles transit committee chair

Patrick Dare
Ottawa Citizen

Monday, November 17, 2008

OTTAWA - Two city councillors proposing an alternative public transit plan got an enthusiastic reception Monday from supporters who want more trains and fewer buses in Ottawa's transportation future.

Close to 200 people filled the Gladstone Theatre as Capital Councillor Clive Doucet and Kitchissippi Councillor Christine Leadman unveiled their plan, which would cut out the proposed expansion of the bus system and make rail transit the priority.

The councillors hope to build an east-west rail system by running electric light rail along Carling Avenue, rather than the Ottawa River Parkway, as the city has proposed. Ms. Leadman said a Carling service would build new development and generate additional revenue for the city, compared with the parkway route. Service from Lincoln Fields to downtown would take 17 minutes.

They also propose building electric light rail along the southeast Transitway to Leitrim and along the Transitway to Blair Station within the next five years. In the second phase, rail would be built along Carling Avenue farther west to Kanata and from Blair Station east to Orléans.

Building light rail along Carling from Lincoln Fields to a link with the north-south O-Train corridor would involve seven stops and cost about $378 million, according to rail consultant Morrison Renfrew. The Ottawa River Parkway rail corridor has been estimated to cost $135 million.

Audience members cheered a proposal to extend the existing north-south diesel O-Train across the Prince of Wales Bridge to Gatineau.

Dieter Hollweck said he was pleased that Ottawa politicians are debating the transportation system because rail transit can shape urban development. He said city officials need to understand how successful European transit systems are integrated into new buildings to such an extent that people need only public transit to move around.

"This is very important. This is the future of Ottawa," said Mr. Hollweck.

Paul MacNeil, another citizen who attended, said Ottawa has an important role to play as a capital and he is proud two city councillors made it an important part of their plan to quickly get rail service across the Ottawa River to Gatineau.

Longtime transportation observer David Gladstone said the alternative plan is a welcome breaking of city council ranks. He said the city needs to build rail capacity quickly because the bus system is deteriorating under the burden of too many vehicles and riders, coupled with tight finances that are prompting service cuts.

Gloucester-Southgate Councillor Diane Deans said the strong public turnout for the alternative plan suggests the staff-written plan hasn't quite got it right and that people want a system that brings on more commuter rail faster. She said people want rail because it is cleaner and she thinks Carling Avenue has merit as a possible western rail route.

Ms. Leadman said the city's current plan, which contains a lot of bus transitway projects, is not going to win funding from the provincial and federal governments because there is too much old bus technology in it.

Mr. Doucet said he sometimes wonders why city staff are so attached to bus technology.

"The city has to become serious about doing rail now," said Mr. Doucet.

The Doucet-Leadman plan earned criticism from Bay Councillor Alex Cullen, who chairs council's transit committee. Mr. Cullen said council is not about to revisit its route-alignment decisions taken in the spring, after many hard months of study and debate. He said it's not clear how the existing O-Train would work along with the new electrified LRT train that is to head down Carling into downtown.

Mr. Cullen said the proposed Carling service, costing $378 million by itself, would be almost three times the cost of running trains along the Ottawa River Parkway and he said it's "not credible" to say that commuter rail can be built along the Transitway inside the Greenbelt within five years. He said that adding electric light rail to the southeast Transitway would cost $143 million more.

"They add to costs. We're at the breaking point (for costs)," said Mr. Cullen. "We just don't have that money to throw around."

The Doucet-Leadman plan counts on lower costs by not building more bus transitway.

Discussion of the city's transit plan begins formally Wednesday with committee hearings, to be followed next week by council debate.

Mr. Doucet says there are almost enough members of council onside to have the current plan changed to bring rail faster.

© Ottawa Citizen 2008

[lrt's friend]

Mr. Cullen said council is not about to revisit its route-alignment decisions taken in the spring, after many hard months of study and debate. He said it's not clear how the existing O-Train would work along with the new electrified LRT train that is to head down Carling into downtown.

Ha! There really wasn't that much of a debate. As we saw the 4 options, all the routes were predetermined. When I attended public meetings, nobody was listening to the public, the consultants were telling the public that this was the way it had to be. Bah! And remember the mayor telling the councillors to shut up and quit questioning the plan. Just vote for it! No wonder councillors are now rebelling and producing an alternative that public is anxious to embrace.

Regarding the O-Train and Carling LRT sharing the same corridor, electrifying the O-Train will solve the problem as the track could be shared.

Regarding the O-Train extension to Gatineau, this is for Ottawa residents travelling to downtown Hull, not for Gatineau residents travelling to downtown Ottawa.

Regarding Tunney's Pasture and Westboro, that portion of the Transitway could also be converted to LRT at a low cost, and in the longer-term this could be extended possibly via Byron. All possibilities still remain, even if Carling were to be chosen as the primary route.

We are now seeing Doucet and Leadman stealing Cullen's thunder on the eve of voting through the transit plan he was leading. Was Alex Cullen the right person to be leading the Transit Committee?

[Deez]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

Who do you want to believe? There were many good points brought by the transit review committee, none of them were addressed, besides puting a streetcar line down Carling, and that was probably there in case the Parkway corridor wasn't approved.

The main recommendations of the peer review panel were:

- Keep suburban BRT at grade
--> My feeling is that political pressure kept this from happening

- Study Carling-Montreal streetcar
--> The peer review did not have time to look at the engineering restrictions associated with running a streetcar down Montreal Rd. Staff considered their recommendation but concluded a bus priority lane would be sufficient at a much lower capital cost.

- "The network should also include a North-South line, replacing the O-Train service to connect Hurdman via the tunnel to Bayview and the Ottawa International Airport. There is also an option to connect Hurdman to Confederation/Heron. It is assumed that the section of LRT alongside the Ottawa River Parkway would be segregated from other traffic."

Was there a reason for the line to go to Riverside South, besides the EA already done? No, it was an excuse by staff. Same thing can be said about the rail yard, and same thing can be said that a tunnel wasn't "supposed" to be needed.

So you don't think the transit-centred CDP would fly in Riverside South? There's also the expense of potentially having to redo the EA (which I believe was in the millions of dollars). Also, getting a yard is no easy task...remember the controversy associated with securing the NS yard?

Remember when there was supposed to be 3 stations in the core? Well the consultants had made a study decades earlier that showed two, they put two in the new plan. Did residents agree to that? Hell no.

Somehow I think there was a little more to it than that...

There were 2 YEARS of consultation, the plan is still the same as it was first presented.

The new network options were first presented on March 3, 2008...8 months ago. There were consultations before that (going back to Fall 2007...1 year ago), but they did not go into the specifics of network design. The plan has not changed much, but how do you judge one person's opinion over another person's conflicting opinion? There are many supposed "experts" out there.

Yes it's a political game, but come on, there is no way for criticism at city hall, I emailed Alex Cullen, and he can't even agree on numbers... that was produced by his own staff. There would have been higher ridership in the SE Transitway conversion, and without duplicating 3km of route (rollercoaster infrastructure), plus the system would have been balanced. The reviewers put that in their review, nothing was changed in the plan. It's been like that for two years.

Read the peer review report. They made no such recommendation; although they indicated it would balance tunnel loads, they did not deem it necessary to convert to LRT.

There's LRT being put in place at a much lower ridership level in Toronto than what will for suburbs in Ottawa. If city staff were doing their planning right using the ministry of transportation methods, it would be a subway not LRT for Baseline to Blair.

Which Toronto corridors are these? I wouldn't be surprised if the peak hour loads were higher for Orleans to downtown, but any time outside of peak hour there is nearly no demand. It's simply not worth the investment right now.

I would have also liked to see real rapid transit from Blair to Baseline, but I'm not going to jeopardize the entire plan for something that really will not make an enormous difference.

Do I trust politicians? No, but more than city staff. How many of them work at Delcan now? Too many to count?

By my count there is one that is working on TMP-related stuff.

[Deez]

Originally Posted by AylmerOptimist

There is an abbandoned railroad track that goes from POW bridge to Terrace de Chaudière (across the street from). They could use that historic stone building as a station.

It's a 600m walk to the rest of dt Gatineau...

[Deez]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

And Deez, by city staff number, the Carling route is 1 minute slower than the Parkway one, so it's not really an issue.

Not sure where you're getting that from...could have been something I haven't been over yet:

Originally Posted by staff report

The Western Parkway corridor is the most direct link from Lincoln Fields Station to the downtown. Transit riders from west and southwest would enjoy a faster trip on the Western Parkway corridor than on Carling corridor even if it is built as a grade-separated facility (13 minutes versus 20 minutes). Using surface LRT on Carling would double the travel time between Lincoln Field and Bayview station (13 minutes versus 26 minutes)

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

The projet was not improved in anyway, it's still the same projet as it always was. 2 years were pratically lost. I had been to many open houses. It was basically consultants arguing with citizens on what they need, not the other way around. So if councillors can fight city staff up, good. I would be pissed if it was a bad plan, but it's obviously not the case. Seeing comments on other websites, it has more concensus than the plan presented by staff.

Well when the current plan was presented by staff, there was a lot of enthusiasm and consensus around it as well. I bet you is this "new" Doucet/Leadman plan was adopted, it won't be long until the discord starts. It's only a few hours old and the critics haven't been at it.

Did you expect the plan to change every time there was a public consultation? I doubt there were the same level of public consultations when they originally designed the Montreal Metro or the TTC. The only thing lacking in the current plan is in the speed of implementation which is what any pro-LRT politician should be fighting for so it can get underway, not meddling with the routing.

[Franky]

I went to a couple of "public consultations" and they are a sham.

They ask the group to choose from a bunch of "choices" 3 lame and one "not as lame", then they summarize the table as a group and claim they have "consensus" - everybody likes the plan without addressing the concerns or even counting the dissenting voices, usually from people who refuses to be manipulated by the BOXES. What a joke. And the "consultant" is in no way unbiased. It's just pathetic. It's no wonder turnout for the Doucet-Leadman plan during the day rivalled the turnout to "public consultations" held at accessible times! People know the futility of these meetings.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by staff report
The Western Parkway corridor is the most direct link from Lincoln Fields Station to the downtown. Transit riders from west and southwest would enjoy a faster trip on the Western Parkway corridor than on Carling corridor even if it is built as a grade-separated facility (13 minutes versus 20 minutes). Using surface LRT on Carling would double the travel time between Lincoln Field and Bayview station (13 minutes versus 26 minutes)

This is called a strawman argument. It's when you create a fictitious scenario that supposedly represents your opponent's position, then proceed to destroy it. Problem is, it ISN'T your opponent's position. The Carling route as proposed would have extra measures to speed up transit including grade separated intersections and transit priority methods making the time difference almost insignificant.

Also, the source is questionable - no actual report was referenced.

[lrt's friend]

Don't meddle with the route? The NCC has already told the city to consider other routes.

I concur that the whole process has been a sham, a process designed to produce conclusions that support the position of the mayor and transit committee chair. Some reports produced the total opposite conclusions to the reports produced for the 2006 plan without explanation.

I think it speaks volumes that the general public crowds in to see a presentation during business hours, when similar crowds could not be achieved for public consultation meetings in the evening, when much more people should have been available.

[Deez]

Originally Posted by Franky

This is called a strawman argument. It's when you create a fictitious scenario that supposedly represents your opponent's position, then proceed to destroy it. Problem is, it ISN'T your opponent's position. The Carling route as proposed would have extra measures to speed up transit including grade separated intersections and transit priority methods making the time difference almost insignificant.

Also, the source is questionable - no actual report was referenced.

..............? Are you saying that I set up a straw man argument or that he did? I took direct quotes from him and from staff's report to council.

According to staff, there would be a 7 minute difference in travel time even if the Carling route was completely grade separated, not just given signal priority.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by Deez

..............? Are you saying that I set up a straw man argument or that he did? I took direct quotes from him and from staff's report to council.

According to staff, there would be a 7 minute difference in travel time even if the Carling route was completely grade separated, not just given signal priority.

How can there be 7 minutes difference with a grade-separated route? Someone obviously made some assumptions others did not or there is a mistake. Who is right? Do you have a link to the report?

Edit: staff report: http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/public_co...ft_plan/images/final_staff_report_en.pdf
This Delcan report http://ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/trc/2008/11-10/Document%204%20-%20Carling%20Avenue.pdf
says "Travel time: The following is a comparison of the estimated travel times using these two corridors:
������ Western Parkway – between Lincoln Fields and Bayview Stations (7.6km): 13 minutes
������ Carling Avenue – between Lincoln Fields and Bayview Stations (8.7km): 15 minutes
"
Where did staff get 20 minutes?

[lrt's friend]

November 18, 2008

LRT on fast track

Proposals calls for Carling route within 5 years

By DEREK PUDDICOMBE, CITY HALL BUREAU



A transit plan from two city councillors calls for the city to build light rail now.

Councillors Clive Doucet and Christine Leadman say their plan will stretch to the far reaches of the city and cost half of what the city is proposing in the most recent plan devised by staff.

They unveiled their alternative plan -- a focus on light rail with little investment in buses -- in front of about 200 people at The Gladstone Theatre.

Under their plan, commuters will be using light rail in the Greenbelt within five years. The $3.5-billion plan includes:

- LRT to Baseline transit station from the Blair Rd. station in five years;

- Extending the O-Train line into Gatineau;

- Brings LRT to Kanata, Orleans, Barrhaven and Riverside South by 2019.

Rather than take a direct route north to south from Bayview to Riverside South, a double track LRT line would travel through a downtown tunnel to the Hurdman station over to Heron then south to Riverside South.

The plan would keep the single track O-Train line to Carling from South Keys where it would become a double track LRT line to Bayview.

The councillors say their plan takes rapid light rail, not a streetcar, down Carling Ave. to Preston from Lincoln Fields and includes seven transit stops -- not the 22 the city is proposing.

Renfrew Morrison, the consultant hired to look at Carling Ave. as an immediate option, said the corridor would be a "neglected opportunity."

A report he provided explained Carling has more than enough space to accommodate light rail and is a vibrant activity centre to support spending the $378 million it would take to build.

The city's plan to use the Ottawa River Parkway instead of Carling would cost about $135 million.

The report also suggests light rail, as opposed to a streetcar, would get commuters downtown more quickly.

"Streetcars are a waste of money," said Morrison. "It's like pouring money down a rat hole."

Doucet and Leadman are frustrated with the latest transit plan because it will take so long to build.

"Staff doesn't understand the urgency of investing in light rail now," said Doucet.

However, Bay Coun. Alex Cullen, who chairs the city's transit committee, doesn't take the plan seriously.

Cullen said the timeline won't work just based on how long it would take to secure funding from other levels of government.

"It's really a non-starter," said Cullen. "They have really understated the funding. It's not credible to believe we will have rail in five years."

Gloucester-Southgate Coun. Diane Deans likes elements of the plan. Based on public turnout, city staff still have some work to do.

"We need to craft this to get it right," said Deans. "There are some important elements here to bring to the table."

Doucet and Leadman will present their plan to the transit committee tomorrow.

---

TWO PLANS

From the city

- LRT down Carling Ave. by 2031

- Will go to Riverside South, Kanata and Orleans by 2031

- Uses Ottawa River Parkway as western corridor -- cost $135 million

- No light rail into Gatineau

- Includes a downtown tunnel

- Total cost: $4.7 billion

From Doucet/Leadman

- LRT down Carling in five years

- Will go to Riverside South, Kanata and Orleans in 10 years

- Uses Carling Ave. as western corridor -- cost $378 million.

- Takes light rail into Gatineau

- Includes a downtown tunnel

- Total plan will cost $3.5 billion

- Transit stops along Carling Ave. under the Doucet plan would be: Lincoln Fields, Carlingwood, Maitland, Churchill, Merivale, Civic Hospital, Carling at Preston

As I said, we need Alex Cullen and Clive Doucet on the same page. Is it even possible?

Why is it that we could have had operational light rail next year and 5 years from now is not possible? This is why the public is getting fed up. Plans that call for a wait of 10 years or longer are not acceptable. There is far too much foot dragging going on.

List of Carling stations seem reasonable.

I would think that underpasses are needed at Holland/Island Park, Queensway/Kirkwood, and Woodroffe. This would make stations all at grade, which will be less expensive.

[lrt's friend]

Alex Cullen and Christine Leadman will be interviewed (separately) on CFRA between now and 10:30am.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Deez

Read the peer review report. They made no such recommendation; although they indicated it would balance tunnel loads, they did not deem it necessary to convert to LRT.

Not the peer review for this, but the staff's report of numbering. Numnbers were higher than the O-Train corridor.

Which Toronto corridors are these? I wouldn't be surprised if the peak hour loads were higher for Orleans to downtown, but any time outside of peak hour there is nearly no demand. It's simply not worth the investment right now.

Jane is one of them. 1300 in peak hour.

I would have also liked to see real rapid transit from Blair to Baseline, but I'm not going to jeopardize the entire plan for something that really will not make an enormous difference.


By my count there is one that is working on TMP-related stuff.

Jeopardize what? It was supposed to be a NEW plan.
Actually, I know 2 personally.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

As I said, we need Alex Cullen and Clive Doucet on the same page. Is it even possible?

I would think that underpasses are needed at Holland/Island Park, Queensway/Kirkwood, and Woodroffe. This would make stations all at grade, which will be less expensive.

The problem is that it was all pre-planned. Deez showed the issues with planning. BRT at grade? What political pressure? Councillors were pissed for not having LRT. Besides Hunter, I never heard one councillor being happy about BRT, besides, we can afford it. But afford what, to change it later?

I was aware of the plan nearly 2 years ago, then the MTF plan came, and really pissed off consultants and city staff.

The fact is that Toronto got their act together, and want operational lines in 2012. That is FIVE YEARS from announcement. How can't city hall do the same?

[lrt's friend]

It was just announced on CFRA that the transit planner responsible for the Cleveland's Euchlid Avenue BRT is in town this morning making a presentation to the Downtown Rideau BIA. This sets us up for yet another potential proposal.

[lrt's friend]

There is a big difference between Toronto and Ottawa. Because rapid transit in Toronto covers several municipalities, Metrolinx was set up to provide some degree of autonomy in planning and allows them to develop some expertise in developing rapid transit systems. There may be some merit in following this model in Ottawa.

[Franky]

The difference in cost between the $378 million Carling route and the $135 million Ottawa River Parkway route is about the same amount as what the city is being sued for ($215 million) for cancelling the North-South project!

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

There is a big difference between Toronto and Ottawa. Because rapid transit in Toronto covers several municipalities, Metrolinx was set up to provide some degree of autonomy in planning and allows them to develop some expertise in developing rapid transit systems. There may be some merit in following this model in Ottawa.

Of course, but they still get plan approved (same EAs as Ottawa much faster), plus their lines have lower ridership than suburbs would have here. Toronto or not, it's still the same government.