Transit Fantasies

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by greenturnedblue

Except for all the students coming from surrey going to SFU Burnaby

Yeah not everyone SoF takes the Expo Line into Vancouver. A lot of people take it across the water to Columbia Station and then switch trains to head towards Lougheed.

[officedweller]

That's why Lougheed Station was originally envisaged with a north-south orientation which allowed Coquitlam-Surrey trips with only 1 transfer at Columbia.

The Braid-Sapperton leg (the "Brunette Line") of the "T-Line" was supposed to be the middle part of a "crosstown" link between the 2 big suburban downtowns - Coquitlam (north of Fraser) and Surrey (south of Fraser).
The as-built configuration at Lougheed still allows through running trains from Coquitlam to Columbia (with turnbacks).
(Likewise, Canada Line trains can be through-routed from YVR to Richmond Brighouse, which was a system requirement.)

m

[greenturnedblue]

Got any more info on this?

Originally Posted by officedweller

That's why Lougheed Station was originally envisaged with a north-south orientation which allowed Coquitlam-Surrey trips with only 1 transfer at Columbia.

The Braid-Sapperton leg (the "Brunette Line") of the "T-Line" was supposed to be the middle part of a "crosstown" link between the 2 big suburban downtowns - Coquitlam (north of Fraser) and Surrey (south of Fraser).
The as-built configuration at Lougheed still allows through running trains from Coquitlam to Columbia (with turnbacks).
(Likewise, Canada Line trains can be through-routed from YVR to Richmond Brighouse, which was a system requirement.)

m

[officedweller]

That's the "T-Line" that was in the 1996 Livable region Strategic Plan.

All the background information at the time talked about 3 separate lines - Burnaby lake / Brunette and Coquitlam.

The Millennium Line only combined the Burnaby Lake and Brunette Lines to facilitate the transfer of SkyTrain cars from the Edmonds yard.
Before that, the T-Line was envisaged as at-grade LRT, but the NDP government of Glen Clark switched to SkyTrain on the grounds that the "enhanced LRT" (municipalities were demanding many underpasses, etc.) approached the cost of SkyTrain.

I've posted his before regarding Lougheed Station - buried in the transit thread.
Originally, Lougheed Station was to be oriented north-south on the Lougheed Mall parking lot.
The project went for a cheaper location with an east-west orientation.

Originally Posted by officedweller

Planning for the Millennium Line

Here's the reference to the Connectivity Report with diagrams.
It was to be north-south - probably in the Lougheed parking lot - maybe on North Road(?).


http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=4492482&postcount=849


http://www.llbc.leg.bc.ca/public/Pub...rainReview.pdf


http://www.llbc.leg.bc.ca/public/Pub...rainReview.pdf


http://www.llbc.leg.bc.ca/public/Pub...rainReview.pdf


http://www.llbc.leg.bc.ca/public/Pub...rainReview.pdf


RTPO 2000 - Millennium Line

Here's the final RTPO 2000 plan for Lougheed with the east-west station and the basketweave.

The basketweave was to facilitate a terminus at VCC (or beyond) for both Expo Line and Millennium Line trains,
allowing both lines' VCC-bound trains to stop at the same platform (marked "Vancouver" on the first diagram).
That avoided the problem that Toronto's TTC had at Bay Station & St. George Station during their brief interlining project when the
Bloor-Danforth Line was first opened, where trains with the same destination were split between 2 platforms and passengers
at the wrong platform would miss the "next" train.

With the Expo Line terminating at Production Way Station, the problem would affect fewer passengers,
hence the current decision to split the westbound platforms.
















Evergreen Extension

And the Evergreen Extension (as SkyTrain) Operations diagram from the Partnerships BC website (?) without the basket weave.

Originally Posted by dpogue

And just for completeness, here's the current routing at Lougheed (from October 22nd, 2016 until June 25th, 2018):


Here's the routing after the June 25th, 2018 change:

[officedweller]

This GVRD Report from 1993 (medium term projected to 2006)
shows the strong desire to build the New Westminster to Coquitlam line to "shape growth".

[cganuelas1995]

Hey, we can't forget about the documentation about the Commercial Broadway configurations, now can we?

[officedweller]

Here you go...

From "Beyond the B-Line", which used to be on the CoV's website.
Note in the conclusion that the decision to keep the lines separate (and not merge them) was predicated on
the western extension to the future north-south RAV Line materializing within a decade after 1999.
If it were to be more than a decade, then merging would make sense.

[greenturnedblue]

Wow, this is great info, thanks!

However, I am having a hard time understanding the difference between options A and D for the merge options, they appear to be identical. Maybe someone can explain this a bit more?

[officedweller]

The "merge" spur is the dotted line.
Option A is what was built - no merge - just a parallel line in the Grandview Cut.
Option D presents a parallel line in the Grandview Cut, plus a spur that rises out of the Cut and would have merged with the Expo Line.

Option C would have created a bottleneck with both Expo Line and Millennium Line trains using common track.

You can imagine where the spur would have been on this aerial photo -either along 11th Ave or 12th Ave.
It probably would have required the demolition of an entire block of houses.


http://old.globalairphotos.com/large/BC/Vancouver/East/2002/036/2

[Migrant_Coconut]

Take nname's North Van alignment, mix with one of waves' Burrard crossings, add copious amounts of scope creep. Enjoy.

[waves]

Well, this certainly sent me down a rabbit hole. It was a good rabbit hole though.

I was contemplating the idea of a twist and turn to get up Lonsdale with Skytrain and I wondered, well, how much can I shorten that twist and turn and at the same time stay below 6% grade? I plotted out a route and then created a profile. I assumed the line would stay 20m below the ocean floor and then planned it outwards from there trying to keep the stations as close to the ground as possible and the slope at 5.8% or less.

The solution I came out with actually seemed to reasonably work and not be overly crazy in terms of cost ($2.53 billion in 2018 Canadian). There are many benefits for going with such an alignment:
- Connects to Commercial-Broadway Station which is like the epi-center of transit in Metro Vancouver.
- Commercial-Broadway now has a third platform which would be easy to tie the new line into
- Lonsdale Quay to Commercial-Broadway in 10min. Surrey Center or Coquitlam Center in 40min. (For both Driving takes 30min without traffic!).
- Delivers transit to the Lonsdale Corridor which has the highest density on the north shore.
- Makes connecting to the Seabus much faster. From 23rd to the Quay in 5min (versus now by bus, 15-20min).
- The "snake" curve alignment up Chesterfield and St. Georges allows for 3rd St to have a station aligned East-West. This would be brilliant for the future where a North Shore East-West Skytrain Line could connect directly to that 3rd St. Station. You could also get on a train at 23rd and continue straight to Park Royal without switching trains, or get on at Commercial Broadway and continue straight through to Phibbs and Dollarton. There are lots of options with this.

[trofirhen]

Cool concept and great thinking, Waves! This is the niftiest thing I've seen here in many moons. Furthermore, although people may not think it necessary now, keep the plans under guard.
One day, city planners and engineers might just want to buy them off you. Really. I think this concept is great. Big bucks, yes, but great .... and necessary in the long term.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Could a Phase 2 extension could get past the Expo and head south down Victoria? Seems like a waste to leave it at Broadway.

[fredinno]

Would it be better to have the North Shore Line use the old Interurban ROW via Strathcona? It wouldn't have to be bored all the way, and there IS a somewhat deep section on the path that might screw things up, but:


This is bascially the proposed change in alignment. Somewhat longer and deeper line in Burrard Inlet and less development opprotunity around line- in exchange for a cheaper alignment through Vancouver, being able to use an abandoned port as the tunnel port, reducing costs, and giving a staging area for the project (the port was originally for BC cruise ships, but was abandoned, I forgot its name) and less severe turns at Lonsdale Quay.

(My Line in purple)

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

This is bascially the proposed change in alignment. Somewhat longer and deeper line in Burrard Inlet and less development opprotunity around line- in exchange for a cheaper alignment through Vancouver, being able to use an abandoned port as the tunnel port, reducing costs, and giving a staging area for the project (the port was originally for BC cruise ships, but was abandoned, I forgot its name) and less severe turns at Lonsdale Quay.

But then you're skipping the most active part of Commercial and most of Grandview-Woodland. The purple alignment has a couple of bars and restaurants, Fujiya, an elementary school and a really good gelato place, and that's about it - the rest is light industrial.

[waves]

You could yes. To complete your alignment below from Victoria to Bridgehouse. So at $114 million per km above grade (11.4km), $270 million per km bridge (1.0km), $30 million per station (8), you result in $1.81 billion (2015 dollars) to complete that southern portion. If you only went to Marine Drive, it would be only $800 million (6km, 3-4 stations).

Most North Shore commuters don't really travel to the Fraserview area, so I guess I am just wondering what the point would be? With that in mind I am imagining that a number of potential projects might get priority namely: Hastings Skytrain Line, 41st/49th Skytrain Line, PoCo Extension, Canada Line Extension. Thoughts?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by waves

Most North Shore commuters don't really travel to the Fraserview area, so I guess I am just wondering what the point would be? With that in mind I am imagining that a number of potential projects might get priority namely: Hastings Skytrain Line, 41st/49th Skytrain Line, PoCo Extension, Canada Line Extension. Thoughts?

Fair point - maybe to 41st/49th only. I was thinking that the Bridgeport switch will bottleneck sometime down the road, and that we need to give each of the branches its own line.

I dunno about that order. The North Shore is practically screaming for the next SkyTrain (understandably so), and TransLink just might give it to them.

[waves]

Fredinno, I have thought about that route too. The issue with it technically is that the inlet is deeper there. For my alignment in green, I have to start the bored tunnel at 1st avenue in order to get it deep enough (supposedly*) under the ocean floor. If we were to go with your route, you would have to do about the same (meaning the majority of that section has to be bored tunnel anyways and can't be at grade). Migrant Coconut also makes good arguments from a planning perspective.

Edit: Also, about the curve at the Quay on to Chesterfield, you might be able to have the line turn eastward sooner and follow that ridge before turning north-east straight up Chesterfield.

*I say supposedly because I am not a geologist and I haven't seen the stratigraphy along the route. This publication has some good information: https://www.gac-cs.ca/publications/JohnArmstrong_VancouverGeology.pdf.

[waves]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I dunno about that order.

Oh the list wasn't complete or in any order. I have no idea what should come next. Right now as far as I can see things politically, in order:

1. Langely Skytrain Extension + SNG-White Rock BRT.
2. UBC Skytrain Extension
3. SFU Gondola
4. Something for the North Shore, idk what
5. Canada Line Reno's and Extension (3 car trains, 50m long platforms, extension to Ladner)

If the line goes to 49th, that would be 4km and 2 stations, so $500 million extra.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by waves

Oh the list wasn't complete or in any order. I have no idea what should come next. Right now as far as I can see things politically, in order:

1. Langely Skytrain Extension + SNG-White Rock BRT.
2. UBC Skytrain Extension
3. SFU Gondola
4. Something for the North Shore, idk what
5. Canada Line Reno's and Extension (3 car trains, 50m long platforms, extension to Ladner)

Good list. I'd guess Newton-Guildford, North Shore Part 2 and Hastings are going to be #6 to #8.