Transit Fantasies

[Migrant_Coconut]

Also, the Canada's at the wrong grade to go under Burrard Inlet. Perhaps the Expo could go to Lynn Valley instead.

Interesting alignment for the Surrey SkyTrain.

[Unregistered User]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I've got some suggestions (and pesky facts). It's easier to have a Hastings Line travel to Stanley Park and across to the North Shore. We can't have a rail line go up Burnaby Mountain to SFU as the grade is too steep - it's why they're proposing a gondola. Also any more stations in Richmond would have to be a separate surface rail line (the last section of Canada Line is single tracked because of Richmond Nimby-ism).

I don't dispute the facts about SFU and Richmond: I envisioned this as a very expensive bored tunnel + express elevator a la Beacon Hill Station in Seattle. And in Richmond: an equally expensive rebuild of the last section of track (at at least build an additional single track on the west side of No 3 Rd) to leave open the possibility of an extension west down Granville Ave and south on Railway Ave.

I'm curious though about your comment about it being easier for a line down Hastings to go up to Stanley Park. The Expo Line between Stadium and Burrard runs in a straight line up Dunsmuir; I imagined simply extending it further northwest up Dunsmuir/Pender/Georgia/the Causeway, replacing the 240/250/253 routes. A track will still split off for the turn back to Waterfront (so the Expo and purple lines can share OMCs). With the Purple Line I was think of a line that north of Broadway would take over the routes covered by the 4/14/16/44 (and 95, of course). I am not aware any bus route that ever went down Hastings and then up Georgia and over the Lion's Gate. I assumed it wasn't a route that was useful to that many commuters.

[Unregistered User]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Also, the Canada's at the wrong grade to go under Burrard Inlet. Perhaps the Expo could go to Lynn Valley instead.

Interesting alignment for the Surrey SkyTrain.

I concede that. Realistically, there would be no Canada Line north of Waterfront (but it really looks good on a map!). Besides, there isn't need for 3 rapid transit lines to the north shore. It was purely for aesthetic reasons.

To explain Surrey, I envision 3 termini for the Expo Line: Production Way, Newton, and 160 St. The route down to Newton is straightforward, but 160 St is slightly more complex: southbound Expo line trains terminating at 160 St make a stop at Surrey Central on the eastern track, then reverse and turn onto the eastern extension toward 160 St. Waterfront/Park Royal northbound trains departing from 160 St also stop at Surrey Central before proceeding to Gateway.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Unregistered User

And in Richmond: an equally expensive rebuild of the last section of track (at at least build an additional single track on the west side of No 3 Rd) to leave open the possibility of an extension west down Granville Ave and south on Railway Ave.

I'm curious though about your comment about it being easier for a line down Hastings to go up to Stanley Park. The Expo Line between Stadium and Burrard runs in a straight line up Dunsmuir; I imagined simply extending it further northwest up Dunsmuir/Pender/Georgia/the Causeway, replacing the 240/250/253 routes. A track will still split off for the turn back to Waterfront (so the Expo and purple lines can share OMCs). With the Purple Line I was think of a line that north of Broadway would take over the routes covered by the 4/14/16/44 (and 95, of course). I am not aware any bus route that ever went down Hastings and then up Georgia and over the Lion's Gate. I assumed it wasn't a route that was useful to that many commuters.

If you're interested, waves did a concept of a Brighouse station upgrade last year.

I think Sheba's observing that a line over the First Narrows could likely use the Lions Gate, while it'd have to be tunneled under False Creek.

Probably because there's frequent jams on Hastings and on the Lions Gate - separate bus routes means that anybody just wanting to get downtown is still safe, instead of being an hour late.

Originally Posted by Unregistered User

To explain Surrey, I envision 3 termini for the Expo Line: Production Way, Newton, and 160 St. The route down to Newton is straightforward, but 160 St is slightly more complex: southbound Expo line trains terminating at 160 St make a stop at Surrey Central on the eastern track, then reverse and turn onto the eastern extension toward 160 St. Waterfront/Park Royal northbound trains departing from 160 St also stop at Surrey Central before proceeding to Gateway.

Points for creativity. Though maybe just put an OMC at Newton and make it a separate line?

[waves]

I love fantasy maps and picking them apart and everything. So Thanks! However, some things don't quite make sense in this map:

1. Green Line: Going from Victoria to Kingsway to Patterson to Moscrop would be a big giant mess for anything other than a bored tunnel. Also it doesn't really make sense to travel south to Patterson and then go back north towards BCIT. Yeah it could work but it's not a very cost effective or useful design.
2. Pink Line: Kootenay, Burnaby Heights and Willingdon Stations are too close together. Eliminate Burnaby Heights.
3. Pink Line: For SFU a super fast elevator could work, but it's not very elegant. If you put the line at an 8% grade starting at Dalla-Tina Ave you could get a station depth of 10m at the current bus loop or an 18 sec escalator ride. 8% is really pushing the grade to the max though. With all that said, putting a second station at Univercity is not practical since you have to immediately begin descending if you want to connect back to the evergreen line at the same max grade.
4. Pink Line: From Waterfront to Burrard, you seem to want to send it down Thurlow. If thats the case it doesn't make sense to use the existing Burrard Station which already struggles to meet passenger demands. You would have to build a new station, in which case, Robson Street makes more sense as a station location. Also Bored Tunnel is pretty much the only option from Thurlow and Beach to Arbutus and 8th.
5. Pink Line: Marine-Knight is not a very useful termination point. If you are going to bother going out that way, you may as well connect to either Metrotown or 22nd Street Station. Also, I question the usefulness of such a spur that has a river beside it and runs through an area that is not very dense and doesn't really go anywhere useful other than to connect to the Canada Line.
6. Pink Line: The road is East Blvd and West Blvd and not Arbutus once you go past 37th Ave (your stations need re-naming).
7. Red Line: It's hardly worth extending the Canada Line just for one station, let alone Minoru, which doesn't really need a station (nor does Steveston). The only logical way the Canada Line becomes a priority, or is even worth it to extend, is if it crosses the Fraser.
8. Red Line: The Canada Line Waterfront Station butts up against the Expo Line Waterfront Station so you can't really extend the Canada Line without rebuilding everything between Yaletown and Waterfront so although a floating tunnel is a cool idea that I too have pondered, it's a non-starter.
9. Red Line: From Lonsdale Quay to 13th is way too steep for even a LIM Skytrain let alone the Rotem Cars so this route is also a non-starter even though it is pretty geometrically
10. Blue Line: The first narrows is the shallowest and shortest route across Burrard Inlet so it makes sense to take advantage of this a go straight to Park Royal rather than to Cap Road first. This would also give you the advantage of connecting it through to the Green Line rather than making it a terminus station.
11. Yellow Line: "Wesbrook" not "Westbrook". Also not sure if you mean Wesbrook Village or not. Going south-west-ish from 10th to 16th to have a station for Wesbrook Village before turning on to East Mall and terminating at University Blvd would make sense. Going straight from 10th along University Blvd and terminating immediatley at the new bus loop there probably makes more sense though.

Suggestions in general:

• Connecting the North Shore: For every Seabus trip that goes one way, Translink can run 6 buses round trip between the North Shore and Downtown. Any Skytrain investment would need to reduce the Seabus frequency down to tourist attraction levels (Say, one Seabus every 40 min). With this in mind, the most cost effective and connective route that one could build to the North Shore would be from Lonsdale Quay to Commercial Broadway Station. From there you would have direct access to Metrotown, Surrey, Coquitlam, UBC and Downtown. Ideally you would have a line down Hastings first (your pink line) so that the transfer to Downtown could be made sooner. The next line worthy of being built would be the expo line extension to Park Royal.
• Arbutus Line: I think that a more worthy route for the Arbutus Line is to travel to Templeton Station on Sea Island. You could terminate there or continue by crossing the middle arm of the Fraser to Cambie Street with a station beside Aberdeen Station then you have two options: 1) continue across Richmond, across the North Arm of the Fraser on to Bryne Avenue and Southridge Drive and terminating at 22nd Street Station, or, 2) continue Richmond but cross the Fraser to intersect River District then go into a Bored tunnel and continue in a straight line to Metrotown, then along Willingdon to BCIT and Brentwood.
• 41st Ave Skytrain: I don't really think this should be a priority for a Skytrain Line, I think other extensions are more important, ie Canada Line to Tsawwassen Ferry Terminal, SNG BRT (hopefully) extension from Newton to White Rock, Lonsdale Quay to Commercial Broadway.

I look forward to you next map if you make another one.

Shamless plug for my own Fantasy Map: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1FhwW_oU9MFAOHbpk-cWK6R1tBFo&usp=sharing
Past Relevant Posts: One, Two, Three, Four

[Migrant_Coconut]

If they built SkyTrain crossing at both Narrows, TransLink could probably spread out foot traffic across all three routes. Your guess is as good as mine, but I highly doubt they've spent all that time and money on SeaBus terminal upgrades, just to cut service two decades later.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by waves

I love fantasy maps and picking them apart and everything. So Thanks! However, some things don't quite make sense in this map:


I look forward to you next map if you make another one.

Shamless plug for my own Fantasy Map: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1FhwW_oU9MFAOHbpk-cWK6R1tBFo&usp=sharing
Past Relevant Posts: One, Two, Three, Four

Indeed, some things look pretty on a map but they don't make sense in real life (yeah I know, this is fantasy maps but I think they should have some grounding in reality). For the existing lines, I second what you said about the Red Canada Line. The Blue Expo Line won't be re-tunnelled in downtown Van, and for that matter in Surrey the line travels to King George Station and is pointing directly at Fraser Hwy - I know people really want Guildford to be connected but it won't be via the Expo Line (perhaps a separate tunnelled L Line would work?).

Chopping the Pink line into two parts: the southern section is the Arbutus Greenway, which will be some variety of surface rail. The Hastings section (connecting to the North Shore instead) would be tunnelled Skytrain. They've already stated a maximum 6% grade so up Burnaby Mountain and back down again is a no go, and unless they decided to build a north - south line waaaay east of Willingdon there's no real terminus in Burnaby. We're better off terminating it at an enlarged Kootenay Loop.

For the Green line (primarily in a tunnel) I'd have it travel along 41st to Kingsway and under part of Central Park to have a station near Metrotown. Then up Willingdon (and out of the tunnel - the ground dips down) past BCIT to Brentwood (and back into a tunnel). Then diagonally up Douglas Road to Kootenay Loop and across to the North Shore (that I don't know very well so I'll leave station locations to others).

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Chopping the Pink line into two parts: the southern section is the Arbutus Greenway, which will be some variety of surface rail. The Hastings section (connecting to the North Shore instead) would be tunnelled Skytrain. They've already stated a maximum 6% grade so up Burnaby Mountain and back down again is a no go, and unless they decided to build a north - south line waaaay east of Willingdon there's no real terminus in Burnaby. We're better off terminating it at an enlarged Kootenay Loop.

Don't suppose there's a way to twin the Expo mid-Burnaby and let a Hastings or Willingdon Line take over the Production Way-SFU branch?

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Don't suppose there's a way to twin the Expo mid-Burnaby and let a Hastings or Willingdon Line take over the Production Way-SFU branch?

I can't see it - maybe if you draw it out?

[waves]

Originally Posted by Sheba

They've already stated a maximum 6% grade so up Burnaby Mountain and back down again is a no go.

From what I understand the theoretical maximum of the LIM motors is 10% but because of snow and possibly comfort they limit it to 6%. I wonder however, if an exception would be considered if the grade were to be in a bored tunnel where you don't get snow and rain on the rails and people on the train won't likely notice the steepness of the grade because they lack a horizon outside of the train (similar to how an aircraft without IFR goes VFR into IMC).

I did some calcs on what the escalators would have to be in order for the grade to be 6%:

• 6.0% Skytrain Grade = 62 m station depth at Univercity Plaza = 108 m escalator length = 3.5 min standing on escalator
• 6.5% = 50 m depth = 86 m escalator = 2.9 min
• 7.0% = 37 m depth = 64 m escalator = 2.1 min
• 7.5% = 24 m depth = 41 m escalator = 1.4 min
• 8.0% = 10 m depth = 18 m escalator = 36 sec

The likely cost of going this straight line route alone would be likely be about 2.5 billion so its of course not going to happen anytime soon, or ever, particularly if the Gondola is still an option.

I think a more likely scenario if Skytrain were to ever reach SFU would be for it to follow up the Parkway from Hastings at a 7% grade. Some cut and cover excavation would be needed higher up but it is possible. It would make a nice connection to be able to go up the gondola from Production Way then transfer on to the Hastings Line right at SFU. Also because half of it would be at grade, there isn't much land to expropriate and because cut and cover is significantly simpler, cheaper and faster than bored tunnels, the 3km track up from Hastings could be significantly cheaper. If we assume that the project costs about the same as the Evergreen Line, then the whole 12km from Downtown to SFU would be about 1.5 billion in 2016 dollars which is not totally bonkers.

[cganuelas1995]

I got a single station transit fantasy.

Considering that it would be incredibly expensive to duplicate the tracks between Lansdowne and Brighouse, turn Brighouse into a bay platform, with the "end-cap" made of something that can easily breakaway, or even as an energy absorber, in case of a train runaway, yet strong enough to support foot traffic. On the western platform, there will be a footbridge to the mall.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I can't see it - maybe if you draw it out?

Something like that. On a scale of 1 to "WTF are you smoking," I'm thinking it's at least below a 6 or 7.

Originally Posted by waves

I think a more likely scenario if Skytrain were to ever reach SFU would be for it to follow up the Parkway from Hastings at a 7% grade. Some cut and cover excavation would be needed higher up but it is possible. It would make a nice connection to be able to go up the gondola from Production Way then transfer on to the Hastings Line right at SFU. Also because half of it would be at grade, there isn't much land to expropriate and because cut and cover is significantly simpler, cheaper and faster than bored tunnels, the 3km track up from Hastings could be significantly cheaper. If we assume that the project costs about the same as the Evergreen Line, then the whole 12km from Downtown to SFU would be about 1.5 billion in 2016 dollars which is not totally bonkers.

And on top of that, an 86m-long escalator gets us into the Top 10 in the Guinness Book of World Records. Win-win for everybody!

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Something like that. On a scale of 1 to "WTF are you smoking," I'm thinking it's at least below a 6 or 7.

On a scale of 1 to "WTF are you smoking,"

The problem with that is the section that really needs twinning is Waterfront to Metrotown - maybe then continue it up Willingdon?

I still like my idea of a 41st line connecting near Metrotown and continuing up Willingdon as a separate line instead. Not that TransLink has the money for any of this...

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Sheba

The problem with that is the section that really needs twinning is Waterfront to Metrotown - maybe then continue it up Willingdon?

I still like my idea of a 41st line connecting near Metrotown and continuing up Willingdon as a separate line instead. Not that TransLink has the money for any of this...

No arguments there, just trying to explore separating the branch lines and getting 120s or less for each one.

The Canada Line split at Bridgeport is another one too. On one hand, I can understand that neither branch really needs high frequency; on the other, I've been stuck at both Brighouse and YVR after dark...

[waves]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

And on top of that, an 86m-long escalator gets us into the Top 10 in the Guinness Book of World Records. Win-win for everybody!

If you went up beside the parkway at 7% rather than a straight line bored tunnel the station depth would be 15m and so the escalator would be a more reasonable 27m rather than 64m.


On a different note, would it ever be possible that a train could come off the skybridge and head towards production way?

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by waves

On a different note, would it ever be possible that a train could come off the skybridge and head towards production way?

The bridge ramp would have to be built into a Y-junction and a new tunnel bored under New West. It would get ugly fast.
The better solution because trains are bi-directional is to rebuild Columbia to allow for improved transferring between platforms and rapid track switching.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by MIPS

The better solution because trains are bi-directional is to rebuild Columbia to allow for improved transferring between platforms and rapid track switching.

Another reason for a third platform at Columbia.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Another reason for a third platform at Columbia.

Not to mention that every time you interline you reduce reliability and the ability to run the tightest headways

[cganuelas1995]

I honestly think that the Braid-Sapperton section is useless and they should have gone with having CB a junction station with the Expo going to Surrey and the Millennium Line going between Coquitlam and UBC.

[greenturnedblue]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

I honestly think that the Braid-Sapperton section is useless and they should have gone with having CB a junction station with the Expo going to Surrey and the Millennium Line going between Coquitlam and UBC.

Except for all the students coming from surrey going to SFU Burnaby