National Defence HQ (Carling) | 60 Moodie Drive [former Nortel campus]

[Kitchissippi]

It seems rather obvious that they should be building more parkades rather than paving over more fields. Heck they could very well quadruple the amount of parking on that campus using half the space, plus people would end up not walking too far to and from their car.

[urbanforest]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

It seems rather obvious that they should be building more parkades rather than paving over more fields. Heck they could very well quadruple the amount of parking on that campus using half the space, plus people would end up not walking too far to and from their car.

Usually I’m the last person to defend surface parking but I don’t think it’s actually so black and white here.

The first issue is that parkades are exorbitantly expensive, much more so than surface parking. Because they have ample space, why not pave out rather than up? The counter argument is that paving green space has a negative effect on the local environment. But an environmental argument can also be made against a parkade for the enormous carbon emissions associated with concrete.

The other problem, well noted by Truenorth, is that there is an urgent need for more parking immediately, so whether or not they decide to begin the process of building another parkade, they need more parking onsite, now—only the grass field can fulfill that urgent need.

I’d love to see a cost/benefit analysis on this, but more reports is the last thing our government needs.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by urbanforest

Usually I’m the last person to defend surface parking but I don’t think it’s actually so black and white here.

The first issue is that parkades are exorbitantly expensive, much more so than surface parking. Because they have ample space, why not pave out rather than up? The counter argument is that paving green space has a negative effect on the local environment. But an environmental argument can also be made against a parkade for the enormous carbon emissions associated with concrete.

The other problem, well noted by Truenorth, is that there is an urgent need for more parking immediately, so whether or not they decide to begin the process of building another parkade, they need more parking onsite, now—only the grass field can fulfill that urgent need.

I’d love to see a cost/benefit analysis on this, but more reports is the last thing our government needs.

If the cash strapped Civic Hospital and Carleton University can afford building multi-level parking garages, surely DND who spent a billion dollars just renovating the Nortel Campus would do less balking at the cost. Parkades can literally be done with a lot of pre-fab elements and put up very quickly, you also save a lot on snow clearing.

[urbanforest]

Obviously cost is not a barrier, especially now. It’s more a matter of value for money and whether taxpayers want DND spending money on parking garages or submarines. But I also recognize that it’s a tiny amount of money in the context of goverment (and 2% of GDP!) and it’s entirely inconsequential for anyone who doesn’t work there.

[Truenorth00]

Planning for another parkade was under way. It was paused during. COVID I believe. It's been resumed. The field parking is supposed to be temporary.

On construction time, the field parking can be done very quickly. And I mean in days to 1-2 weeks. They are going to use a reserve combat engineer regiment to resurface the field as soon as permission is given. They can do this in a weekend if they go all out and weather cooperates.

And again, you won't find a single person sympathetic to retaining those fields on campus. People are fed up they can't get to work. If you're upset about losing those fields tell the city to meet its transit obligations.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And again, you won't find a single person sympathetic to retaining those fields on campus. People are fed up they can't get to work. If you're upset about losing those fields tell the city to meet its transit obligations.

Again, I find myself asking: Why are so few DND employees willing to share rides?

[Marshsparrow]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Again, I find myself asking: Why are so few DND employees willing to share rides?

Employees come from all across the region - hard to connect with ppl who might be in your general vicinity.
The hybrid days are often different - so you may not have the same schedule.
Different before or after work obligations - i.e. daycare.
Perhaps biased observation - ppl don't seem interested in shared spaces - the car being one of them, they want to listen to their own podcasts, avoid conversations and not compromise with other people.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

Employees come from all across the region - hard to connect with ppl who might be in your general vicinity.
The hybrid days are often different - so you may not have the same schedule.
Different before or after work obligations - i.e. daycare.
Perhaps biased observation - ppl don't seem interested in shared spaces - the car being one of them, they want to listen to their own podcasts, avoid conversations and not compromise with other people.

He doesn't care. Typical entitled Ottawa attitude towards Public Servants who are supposed to be cash cows for the city to milk.

This won't end till fed growth starts being redirected elsewhere and the City understands that they have an obligation to facilitate federal employment, not the other way around.

Put it this way. If this wasn't government, but a large private sector employer, nobody would asking questions like, "Why don't they just carpool?" They would be moving heaven and earth to keep those jobs here.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

Employees come from all across the region - hard to connect with ppl who might be in your general vicinity.
The hybrid days are often different - so you may not have the same schedule.
Different before or after work obligations - i.e. daycare.

If any of those circumstances are deal-breakers that prevent you from sharing a ride, sure.

But honest to dog, listening to some of the parking complaints, you'd think that NO ONE is living life circumstances that allow them to share a ride. And that simply is not the case.

Perhaps biased observation - ppl don't seem interested in shared spaces - the car being one of them, they want to listen to their own podcasts, avoid conversations and not compromise with other people.

This is precisely it.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

He doesn't care. Typical entitled Ottawa attitude towards Public Servants who are supposed to be cash cows for the city to milk.

Who doesn't care?

Put it this way. If this wasn't government, but a large private sector employer, nobody would asking questions like, "Why don't they just carpool?" They would be moving heaven and earth to keep those jobs here.

If there was a similar case of a large private-sector employer located in a transit-unsupportive location and a shortage of parking, yes, I absolutely would be asking why more people don't share rides, just like I used to when I worked in terrible suburban locations, and in offices with far fewer employees that made it harder, statistically speaking, to find a ride to share.

This is not the case at DND Carling.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

But honest to dog, listening to some of the parking complaints, you'd think that NO ONE is living life circumstances that allow them to share a ride. And that simply is not the case.

Unlike most people, those of us in uniform move jobs every 2-3 years and cities every 3-5 years. I've worked at four different locations in the last three years across different parts of the city. Carling, Gatineau, Star Top and Coventry. I've walked when I can. Carpooled when I can. I drive to Carling cause the other options genuinely suck. The idea that people are just not trying hard enough to car pool is beyond offensive to me.

They can't pave that field fast enough.

[dougvdh]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Supply and demand; $72 isn't quite enough. OC should try to open the Moodie bus loop as soon as possible and DND should buy shuttle buses to just go back and forth between the station and campus.

If they charged an appropriate amount for parking, they could easily fund that shuttle service as well. 5,000 spaces at $150/m would give them an extra $375,000 a month to pay for shuttles.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Unlike most people, those of us in uniform move jobs every 2-3 years and cities every 3-5 years. I've worked at four different locations in the last three years across different parts of the city. Carling, Gatineau, Star Top and Coventry. I've walked when I can. Carpooled when I can. I drive to Carling cause the other options genuinely suck. The idea that people are just not trying hard enough to car pool is beyond offensive to me.

They can't pave that field fast enough.

Even if you have no respect for the uniform and just lump them in with the rest of the civil servants the idea they should carpool is kind of silly.

This is a very suburban location and of course it's far more convenient to drive. Classic Ottawa do as I say not as I'd do by everyone making decisions.

Originally Posted by dougvdh

If they charged an appropriate amount for parking, they could easily fund that shuttle service as well. 5,000 spaces at $150/m would give them an extra $375,000 a month to pay for shuttles.

There is logic to this. It's suburban parking so the market price is theoretically low but doing it but raising the price and using the revenue to expand parking (I'd do that instead of a shuttle) makes sense in the normal non-government world but isn't going to happen here.

[Marshsparrow]

One of the most annoying things for public servants is that some get to work in spots where there is no charge for parking and some who work downtown are paying upwards of $280 a month - even downtown Gatineau is running $200+ a month...

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by dougvdh

If they charged an appropriate amount for parking, they could easily fund that shuttle service as well. 5,000 spaces at $150/m would give them an extra $375,000 a month to pay for shuttles.

You're making a great case to reduce the footprint in Ottawa. As it stands, it's a standing complaint in the CAF that you have no parking charges at bases and at operational buildings in Ottawa (say Leitrim or Dwyer Hill or Uplands) but then are effectively forced to pay $75/mo parking at Carling because the other options suck. People understand this where transit options. I didn't hear too many complaints about parking charges at 455 Blvd de la Carriere. It was understood that with transit out front, there was a reasonable alternative.

This, is all just the cherry on top of housing prices. And it's leading personnel to actively refuse postings to Ottawa. Heck, we have people openly asking in town halls if Ottawa is so expensive that it's a national security threat to post members here:

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/...a-because-of-regions-high-cost-of-living

And you want to tack on $150/mo on top? Go for it. You will actively see mass refusals to move here and units simply pushing to leave Ottawa because they can't get staff.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

One of the most annoying things for public servants is that some get to work in spots where there is no charge for parking and some who work downtown are paying upwards of $280 a month - even downtown Gatineau is running $200+ a month...

20 years ago I worked at Pearkes (101 Colonel By). Never heard anybody complaining about taking transit to get there. Was just understood this is the norm for a downtown office. And even today, we tend to look at people who drive to those offices as oddballs who must have money to burn. Carling is just unusual for how bad it is.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

There is logic to this. It's suburban parking so the market price is theoretically low but doing it but raising the price and using the revenue to expand parking (I'd do that instead of a shuttle) makes sense in the normal non-government world but isn't going to happen here.

What other employer in Kanata or Bell's Corners or Nepean charges their employees $75/mo to park? And then doesn't guarantee a parking spot? Any private sector employee would find this kind of charge ridiculously laughable. It's only acceptable because we are government employees and have no other alternative.

[phil235]

I think that while you make some good points, in particular that article sounds like pretty run of the mill public servant griping. Complaints about paying $75 for a non-guaranteed parking spot are not going to elicit a lot of sympathy in the wider world, public sector or private sector. Also, if the cost of living in Ottawa is a national security issue, then we can't post military people in pretty much any major city in Canada, let alone Toronto or Vancouver.

And I'm not convinced that people are universally preferring to be posted elsewhere. I know lots of members of the service who have Ottawa at the top of their list of postings and have done everything in their power to stay here. Not one of them listed parking as a significant factor in their decision-making process.

I'd also note that you only reference military members, when a big portion of the staff at Carling is civilian, and they aren't being posted anywhere.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by phil235

Also, if the cost of living in Ottawa is a national security issue, then we can't post military people in pretty much any major city in Canada, let alone Toronto or Vancouver.

We don't? Our footprint in those cities is disproportionately small and higher ranking (well paid).

Originally Posted by phil235

And I'm not convinced that people are universally preferring to be posted elsewhere. I know lots of members of the service who have Ottawa at the top of their list of postings and have done everything in their power to stay here. Not one of them listed parking as a significant factor in their decision-making process.

Sure. But that preference has absolutely changed over time. Especially as housing has gone up in time. Your 40 and 50 something friends who are higher up in the CAF absolutely do not have the same experience as 20 and 30 somethings new to the CAF posted here on their first or second tour.

Also, as the CAF grows this is absolutely a consideration. We moved the air forces highest skilled unit (AETE) to Ottawa to attract and retain people a few years back. And then the air force decided that the intellectual horsepower of the force would reside in Trenton. In some part because the AETE move showed up with the downsides of Ottawa.

The absolute disdain y'all have is only going to grow this trend. Keep treating complaints like this one as simply just that of ignorant plebes. You don't think this is going to impact you. But I'll take that bet. Today's angry LT is tomorrow's angry LCOL who will be remembering how bad that experience when he/she is tasked to set up a new unit or capability as a project director.

Originally Posted by phil235

I'd also note that you only reference military members, when a big portion of the staff at Carling is civilian, and they aren't being posted anywhere.

Correct. But it's the military who always gets the short end of the stick because when we show up at a building, we go to to the bottom of the pile for things like parking because "seniority". You could have 25 years in the CAF. But you don't have 25 days at the building as far as parking is concerned. Which is exactly why it's the military folks that are most vocal on this.

And you can think this an idle threat. Whatever. We literally now have internal policies that literally require extra justification to set up in Ottawa. We even have a nice excuse and term for it. "Aggregation risk". Growth is absolutely being directed away from the NCR. If you're happy to encourage that, so be it.

[Dengler Avenue]

^ Meanwhile the Town of Petawawa will probably welcome that growth, but I digress.