National Defence HQ (Carling) | 60 Moodie Drive [former Nortel campus]

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I don't want to add any more to our off topic discussion but I think my point is actually related. There is an epidemic of people thinking their organization their government etc are incompetants. Every organization is broken. Every management structure is bent on making up pernicious rules for their own amusment.

DND has been at about this level of staffing in Ottawa for decades. And this is despite adding more and more capabilities and units in the NCR.

Also, troops bitching about HQ is not new. Every private always things he can run the military better than the CDS. Humility is understanding that you may not have the same perspective as those above you.

Originally Posted by FactaNV

I know everyone isn't in uniform, I never said that.

You said more bodies could be used at the bases. Is your manning problem in a Sapper platoon going to get solved by moving out policy analysts from ADM(Pol) to your platoon?

Originally Posted by FactaNV

I also know there is a section for every administrator. 23,000 work at the Pentagon, do we really warrant that much bureaucracy?

Have you ever been to the Pentagon? I have. They don't cover half the stuff we do in Ottawa. Each of their services has the equivalent of ADM(Mat) for example. None of which are based in DC.

Apparently, if we just move several large support organizations out of Ottawa it will help simpletons who don't understand how militaries work think NDHQ is more efficient.

Indeed, the criticism that many of us actually serving have, is that not enough is centralized, and hence becomes inefficient. And it's usually thanks to political sensitivity of ignorant opinions like yours. Consider the air force's expeditionary capability. The expeditionary wing is in Bagotville. Their engineering assets are in Cold Lake. Their deployable airfield is in Trenton. Strategic Air mobility is in Trenton. And the CAF's theatre activation group is in Kingston. Does this sound like a recipe for efficiency to you? We've had units like the Aerospace Engineering Test Establishment move to Ottawa when TD expense and recruiting problems finally forced them to admit being two timezones from Ottawa was a waste.

Originally Posted by FactaNV

I will grant the operational units at NDHQ, I didn't consider that. That said, my point stands.

Not sure how a point based on demonstrated ignorance of the subject stands.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Consider the air force's expeditionary capability. The expeditionary wing is in Bagotville. Their engineering assets are in Cold Lake. Their deployable airfield is in Trenton. Strategic Air mobility is in Trenton. And the CAF's theatre activation group is in Kingston. Does this sound like a recipe for efficiency to you? We've had units like the Aerospace Engineering Test Establishment move to Ottawa when TD expense and recruiting problems finally forced them to admit being two timezones from Ottawa was a waste.

Shall I get on my hobby horse about Canadian Forces College in Toronto and the costs of posting folks from Ottawa to Toronto for the year and then move (most) them back again?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Shall I get on my hobby horse about Canadian Forces College in Toronto and the costs of posting folks from Ottawa to Toronto for the year and then move (most) them back again?

It's a target rich environment when we start discussing geographic posture that results from political decisions made to pander to regional voters or the ignorant.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's a target rich environment when we start discussing geographic posture that results from political decisions made to pander to regional voters or the ignorant.

I mean we live in a democracy so spreading out the economic activity that DND brings is entirely fair. It shouldn't do so at the detriment of the mission of course. Having the college in Toronto gives access to a lot of academics who wouldn't live in a lot of places though Ottawa seems like one of those places which could support it. Doesn't seem like Toronto needs the jobs either.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I mean we live in a democracy so spreading out the economic activity that DND brings is entirely fair. It shouldn't do so at the detriment of the mission of course. Having the college in Toronto gives access to a lot of academics who wouldn't live in a lot of places though Ottawa seems like one of those places which could support it. Doesn't seem like Toronto needs the jobs either.

I don't think UofT or York have a Defence or Foreign Policy focus. Not to the likes of Carleton or UofOttawa.

In an absolute monarchy with me as king, there would be HS rail between Ottawa and Kingston. RMC becomes the CAF War College and Centre of Policy Excellence. The cadets are sent to Civilian Universities to break them from the ring knocker mentality.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

I don't think UofT or York have a Defence or Foreign Policy focus. Not to the likes of Carleton or UofOttawa.

In an absolute monarchy with me as king, there would be HS rail between Ottawa and Kingston. RMC becomes the CAF War College and Centre of Policy Excellence. The cadets are sent to Civilian Universities to break them from the ring knocker mentality.

U of T is the top academic program in Interanational Affairs. Also importantly it has more of an outside the beltway perspective. Now I am sure that it is inertia more than anything that keeps the college in Toronto but I think there is value in having academics there.

What's the ring knocker mentality?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I mean we live in a democracy so spreading out the economic activity that DND brings is entirely fair.

That's fine. The problem that we have is when people start pretending this doesn't impact efficiency or the ultimate ignorance shown here with the assumption that all centralization in Ottawa is inefficiency.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Having the college in Toronto gives access to a lot of academics who wouldn't live in a lot of places though Ottawa seems like one of those places which could support it. Doesn't seem like Toronto needs the jobs either.

It's not about contact with other academics. They can be brought to the college to teach or dialed in from anywhere. And on our staff courses elsewhere, this is usually the case. There's a simple reason the College is in one of the toniest parts of Toronto: Diplomacy. It's there so that foreigners who come to study there get exposure to the most vibrant part of the country and it's easy for them to travel around from there to other important parts of the country. They'll usually get organized trips to Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City, Halifax, Kingston, etc. Not saying there isn't value in this. But it's questionable whether the return is defensible for the CAF itself.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

U of T is the top academic program in Interanational Affairs. Also importantly it has more of an outside the beltway perspective. Now I am sure that it is inertia more than anything that keeps the college in Toronto but I think there is value in having academics there.

What's the ring knocker mentality?

Thanks for the info.

Ring Knocker is a term given to RMC Grads from Non RMC Grads (like me). There is a perception a whiff of arrogance from RMC alumni that breeds an idea of "Don't Get Caught" as they rise through the ranks.

If our junior officers all went to Civilian Universities across the country we'd have much more diversity of thought and outlook within the officer corps.

Finally if you are going to have toddlers (second to fourth year cadets) having oversight over babies (first year cadets) then you'd better have the adults (Lt(N) and Capts) have a very tight grip on their actions.

Caveat - I never went to RMC but my opinions are based on many conversations with RMC Alumni.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Thanks for the info.

Ring Knocker is a term given to RMC Grads from Non RMC Grads (like me). There is a perception a whiff of arrogance from RMC alumni that breeds an idea of "Don't Get Caught" as they rise through the ranks.

If our junior officers all went to Civilian Universities across the country we'd have much more diversity of thought and outlook within the officer corps.

Finally if you are going to have toddlers (second to fourth year cadets) having oversight over babies (first year cadets) then you'd better have the adults (Lt(N) and Capts) have a very tight grip on their actions.

Caveat - I never went to RMC but my opinions are based on many conversations with RMC Alumni.

What's the best practice worldwide? In my experience almost every group accused of being arrogant are so because they in fact are better than the rest. Now that's not great for leadership perhaps as being the best doesn't help if your men frag you. I guess being able to relate to everyone would improve in your view? Do officers who go to civilian and especially non elite universities like Lakehead or something have better realtions with their subordinates? Anecdotal evidence accepted.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

What's the best practice worldwide? In my experience almost every group accused of being arrogant are so because they in fact are better than the rest. Now that's not great for leadership perhaps as being the best doesn't help if your men frag you. I guess being able to relate to everyone would improve in your view? Do officers who go to civilian and especially non elite universities like Lakehead or something have better realtions with their subordinates? Anecdotal evidence accepted.

Well I went to the Number 1 Liberal Arts University in Western Manitoba and I haven't been fragged yet! LOL!

I just think that the amount of money we spend per student at RMC and CMR (St Jean QC) could be more efficiently spent at Civilian University.

[Norman Bates]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Well I went to the Number 1 Liberal Arts University in Western Manitoba and I haven't been fragged yet! LOL!

I just think that the amount of money we spend per student at RMC and CMR (St Jean QC) could be more efficiently spent at Civilian University.

Yay, Brandon!

[LeadingEdgeBoomer]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Well I went to the Number 1 Liberal Arts University in Western Manitoba and I haven't been fragged yet! LOL!

I just think that the amount of money we spend per student at RMC and CMR (St Jean QC) could be more efficiently spent at Civilian University.

I am a very old guy and I can remember when that was the case. I knew a few of my fellow university students who were paid to go to university and then spent the summers working in a military unit. Upon graduation they were obliged to do a term of duty as junior officers. One of my friends at the time got a Geology degree. He learned deep sea diving in the navy and made a career of it when he got out of the navy.

This type of program was also popular among those doing a MD or a nursing degree. Is this still true?

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by LeadingEdgeBoomer

I am a very old guy and I can remember when that was the case. I knew a few of my fellow university students who were paid to go to university and then spent the summers working in a military unit. Upon graduation they were obliged to do a term of duty as junior officers. One of my friends at the time got a Geology degree. He learned deep sea diving in the navy and made a career of it when he got out of the navy.

This type of program was also popular among those doing a MD or a nursing degree. Is this still the true?

Yes that is still the case.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

What's the best practice worldwide?

There isn't an optimal one. Within NATO, there's basically two dominant models. One model is the military university which combines an undergraduate education with officer development. This is what RMCC is. It's also the model that is heavily favoured by the Americans: West Point, Annapolis, AFA, USCGA, etc. The other model is officer training academy model heavily favoured by the Brits. Think of Sandhurst, Cranwell and Britannia in the UK. Most of continental Europe use either model or blend el the two.

The American service academies produce some of the best leaders I've worked with. But they are a subset of all the officers they produce. And the Americans heavily favour education and will pay for their officers to spend half their time in school. The Brits don't pay for an undergraduate education as often and tend to favour experience, whereas every American General has a PhD or two Master's degrees.

I find the British model produces better officers on average to be honest. But it requires substantial efforts to develop a much more rigorous training program. It's also a bit classist (which is why Canada and the US eschew this model a bit) because the input is entirely those who have the resources to finish university ahead.

Ultimately, it's therefore a question of values, culture and desired end product.

[J.OT13]

DND facing parking crunch at Ottawa’s Carling Campus, encourages staff to work in office on Mondays and Fridays

Josh Pringle, CTV Ottawa
Updated: May 05, 2026

The Department of National Defence (DND) is encouraging employees at its Carling Campus to work in the office on Mondays and Fridays and is looking to lease other parking lots as it deals with a shortage of parking spots on some weekdays.

Staff have complained about a shortage of parking spaces at the Carling Avenue campus in Ottawa’s west end as public servants spend more time in the office.

“If you’re not in by, you know, 7:15 (a.m.), you might be travelling all around the building to go find a spot,” Jennifer said.

Another employee told CTV News Ottawa they arrived at the Carling Campus later than usual due to an appointment and couldn’t find a spot.

“I drove for around 20 to 25 minutes looking for a spot throughout various parking lots,” the employee said. “I did not find anything and so I drove out of the entire complex, out across the street.”

On Tuesday, CTV News Ottawa’s Dylan Dyson found vehicles parked on the grass and on the curb because there were no available parking spaces. When CTV News Ottawa visited the Carling Campus last Thursday, there were several parking spaces available.

The Carling Avenue campus can accommodate approximately 10,000 employees and has 5,000 parking spaces available for military and civilian staff.

In a memo to staff last week, the Department of National Defence encouraged staff to shift in-office attendance to Mondays and Fridays, rather than being in the office Tuesdays through Thursdays, “to support better parking availability and workplace flexibility.”

“Carpooling or using other means to get to Carling is also encouraged,” the memo said.

In response to questions from CTV News Ottawa, a spokesperson for the Department of National Defence said approximately 5,300 employees are on site several days each week, and the number of staff in the office on Fridays is approximately 4,200 people.

“The Department of National Defence (DND) encourages employees to make use of carpooling and other alternative transportation, but we acknowledge that the parking lot is often at or near capacity,” DND said.

“This is compounded by a lack of reliable public transit options, which we hope will improve when the Moodie Station is opened.”

OC Transpo buses currently run to the Carling Campus of the Department of National Defence. The O-Train West Extension, which would extend O-Train service from Tunney’s Pasture to a new station on Moodie Drive, is scheduled to open next year.

The department is “exploring options” to lease parking lots near the Carling Campus and provide shuttle service, according to the spokesperson.

“I’m not hopeful. I don’t think that will happen soon,” Jennifer said.

Parking at the DND Carling Campus is managed by Indigo Canada.

Since February 2025, a Vehicle Towing Procedure has been in effect at the Carling Campus to tow vehicles parked in fire lanes, in accessibility spaces and parking in no-parking zones or unauthorized reserved spaces.

The cost of recovering a towed vehicle is $400.

In-office requirements

While DND is asking employees to work in the office on Mondays and Fridays due to the parking shortage, the department says employees must still follow the in-office requirements of three days a week.

“Employees are encouraged to make use of alternatives, such as shifting their selection of in-office days to a Monday and/or Friday as they are less busy,” a DND spokesperson said.

“Employees who choose this option must still ensure they meet the requirement to work on-site a minimum of three days per week, in accordance with Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat (TBS) directive.”

As of Monday, May 4, all executives in the federal public service, including the Department of National Defence, are required to be in the office five days a week. As of July 6, all other public servants will need to be in the office four days a week.

DND says they will not delay the implementation of the four-day in-office mandate due to the parking space shortage.

“The department is preparing for increased onsite presence and will do so in alignment with Treasury Board direction and operational requirements,” DND said.

“The approach will focus on meeting the prescribed onsite presence while ensuring continued operational effectiveness. Implementation will be managed by managers, taking into account workforce needs, available workspace, and the configuration of departmental facilities. Workspace may be limited in certain areas, including in the national capital region. Physical space restrictions will be assessed on a case-by-case basis, and management will be authorized to recommend temporary exceptions in line with relevant policies.”

https://www.ctvnews.ca/ottawa/article/dn...o-work-in-office-on-mondays-and-fridays/

[J.OT13]

The solution isn't more parking, it's alternatives to driving. Frequent shuttles to the nearest transit station, uPass type deal with OC Transpo, encouraging cycling, encouraging carpooling.

[zzptichka]

I bet parking is free on campus. Yet you have to fork out $140 for the monthly bus pass.

If you can't get over yourself and start charging people for parking, at least compensate those who don't drive. It will be much cheaper than building more parking lots or leasing them elsewhere.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

I bet parking is free on campus. Yet you have to fork out $140 for the monthly bus pass.

If you can't get over yourself and start charging people for parking, at least compensate those who don't drive. It will be much cheaper than building more parking lots or leasing them elsewhere.

72.00 a month for parking but a spot is not guaranteed. Moodie station is about 1.3 km short of where it should be. While the trail from the station to the closest pedestrian gate is nice walk in the summer and fall, it is wide open to wind, rain and snow in the late fall, winter and early spring. Maybe an autonomous shuttle service? But not having a station at NDHQ where thousands of people work is a massive fail IMO.

[skyscraperaccount]

Moodie NDHQ was aquired when it was shit bus service to this area...not sure they gave employee experience much thought.

[J.OT13]

Supply and demand; $72 isn't quite enough. OC should try to open the Moodie bus loop as soon as possible and DND should buy shuttle buses to just go back and forth between the station and campus.