National Defence HQ (Carling) | 60 Moodie Drive [former Nortel campus]

[DubberDom]

It looks like PWGSC is buying up the Nortel Campus and will likely consolidate various DND groups into the location.

I find it quite surprising that all the "urban intensification" advocates on this board are not all up in arms. I often get accused of being some sort of pro-sprawl advocate (which is not true), and here is a prime example, once again, of the Federal Government buying up land and moving jobs away from the core into areas not currently accessible through direct rapid transit from all parts or the city.

I often accuse the Urban Intensification people of being misguided in their approach, and here is yet again a perfect example of what is really wrong. The Federal Government should not be moving or build any new Government structures that are not on existing or future Rapid Transit routes. If the Feds want to own that campus, they must pay 100% of the cost for transit station into the facility.

Imagine people who currently work for DND and live in Gatineau? Imagine those who worked from RCMP before they moved to FarrHaven?

Funny, I have not heard a peep from any of you on this? The Feds are once again moving 5000 to as much as 10000 jobs away from the core. This is on top of the RCMP's move to JDS, and Agriculture's move to Skyline (while still in core, it is not effectively serviced by rapid transit).

Furthermore, PWGSC is building a new DND site in Hull on de la Carriere with barely any rapid transit access available from the Ottawa side.

If the Feds are moving out to the suburbs or away from the Transitway lines, should they not be responsible to ensure proper transportation infrastructure is in place?

If I were mayor, I would insist that all new Federal Government buildings should be located within 400m (give or take) of a transitway station.

[reidjr]

Its a 5 minute walk from a heavy rail line.This may be the right time to look at running a heavy rail train from the valley to the east end.

[Ottawan]

Well, to assuage your annoyance at the 'intensification' group, of which I suppose I am a member, I do highly disagree with this move. Jobs are more accessible in the core, and if we are going to spend money on a transit tunnel, and indeed an entirely core-centric transit system, then to take advantage of that investment, that is where the jobs should be. Someone working out of the Nortel Campus, or down in the new RCMP campus is undoubtedly going to be much more likely to commute by car.

This is not the type of city we want to be building, and this will undoubtedly encourage sprawl. I really hope that these moves outwards by the Federal Government are one-time deals reflecting extremely lucrative real estate prices for these particular campuses, and does not reflect a broader policy.

In my mind, the correct choice for DND would have been to build themselves sufficient office space at either Tunney's or Confederation Heights. There is more than enough room (and a corresponding need for intensification and thoughtful development) at either location.

[reidjr]

Some one would have bought this site so its not like its the gov or nothing.When nortel was in its hayday alot of people did travel by bus i beleave oc even offered a special bus service.I have been on this site and for dnd or what every dept it is perfect there is 11 office buildings that includes gyms and cafes etc.I think there would have been alot of massive backlash if the gov came out and said were going to build 11 new office buildings downtown with gyms etc.That would cost double if not more then what they paud for this site.

[McC]

Originally Posted by Ottawan

There is more than enough room (and a corresponding need for intensification and thoughtful development) at either location.

Heck, there should be more than enough room at the current NDHQ site!
http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_...75.688553&spn=0.001657,0.003396&t=h&z=18
e.g. you could easily fill-in the northeast corner with a building at least the size of Place de Ville Tower C, which houses a good 2500 employees, I think.

[Cre47]

Originally Posted by DubberDom

It looks like PWGSC is buying up the Nortel Campus and will likely consolidate various DND groups into the location.

I find it quite surprising that all the "urban intensification" advocates on this board are not all up in arms. I often get accused of being some sort of pro-sprawl advocate (which is not true), and here is a prime example, once again, of the Federal Government buying up land and moving jobs away from the core into areas not currently accessible through direct rapid transit from all parts or the city.

I often accuse the Urban Intensification people of being misguided in their approach, and here is yet again a perfect example of what is really wrong. The Federal Government should not be moving or build any new Government structures that are not on existing or future Rapid Transit routes. If the Feds want to own that campus, they must pay 100% of the cost for transit station into the facility.

Imagine people who currently work for DND and live in Gatineau? Imagine those who worked from RCMP before they moved to FarrHaven?

Funny, I have not heard a peep from any of you on this? The Feds are once again moving 5000 to as much as 10000 jobs away from the core. This is on top of the RCMP's move to JDS, and Agriculture's move to Skyline (while still in core, it is not effectively serviced by rapid transit).

Furthermore, PWGSC is building a new DND site in Hull on de la Carriere with barely any rapid transit access available from the Ottawa side.

If the Feds are moving out to the suburbs or away from the Transitway lines, should they not be responsible to ensure proper transportation infrastructure is in place?

If I were mayor, I would insist that all new Federal Government buildings should be located within 400m (give or take) of a transitway station.

By the time the move will be done, the Bayshore-Moodie segment should be built already though it is a good 5-minute walk though from the 417, it would probably still need routes like the 116, 166, 169 and 182 to serve the Nortel roads. The 181 would probably also have to be reinstated west of Bayshore and it could act as the western terminus of the 101 for non-Kanata trips.

Route 96 would have to be extended to Orleans (hey if they are planning to extend the 94 Barrhaven they can certainly extend the 96 to Orleans) and running more then the current 15-minute frequency in the westbound direction in the AM peak and eastbound during the PM peak. Route 97 would probably have to be extended to end there as well.

Probably no need for the 2 and the 85 to go there or any routes that ends at Lincoln Fields.

However, it would still be a good 45-minute from Orleans and that is from Place d'Orleans I'm talking. By car, it would be a good hour or so, considering it will take probably 45 minutes to get rid of the 174 gridlock.

[DubberDom]

Originally Posted by Cre47

However, it would still be a good 45-minute from Orleans and that is from Place d'Orleans I'm talking. By car, it would be a good hour or so, considering it will take probably 45 minutes to get rid of the 174 gridlock.

45 minutes by bus??? Think 90 minutes to total commute time from home to office from Orleans, probably even worse from Gatineau. My commute by car is approximately the same (Cumberland area to Maitland area) and takes me 45-50 minutes in traffic door to door (except when in snows of course). It will be worse when LRT is implemented. Joe DND will have to take the following routes:
- Local route to Orleans Transit Huib
- "95" to Blair
- LRT to Tunney's
- "96" to Bayshore
- Local route to Nortel Campus


Yikes!!!

The idea that "since the campus was there anyway, somebody would have bought it" is not accurate, since they will be simply moving up to 10,000 jobs away from the Core (they occupy approx 150 buildings scattered across Ottawa/Gatineau) into this campus.

If the city wants intensification, they need to stop their focus on restricting housing developments, and instead focus on driving more intensified commercial office & retail development around the core/transitway.

[reidjr]

Originally Posted by DubberDom

45 minutes by bus??? Think 90 minutes to total commute time from home to office from Orleans, probably even worse from Gatineau. My commute by car is approximately the same (Cumberland area to Maitland area) and takes me 45-50 minutes in traffic door to door (except when in snows of course). It will be worse when LRT is implemented. Joe DND will have to take the following routes:
- Local route to Orleans Transit Huib
- "95" to Blair
- LRT to Tunney's
- "96" to Bayshore
- Local route to Nortel Campus


Yikes!!!

The idea that "since the campus was there anyway, somebody would have bought it" is not accurate, since they will be simply moving up to 10,000 jobs away from the Core (they occupy approx 150 buildings scattered across Ottawa/Gatineau) into this campus.

If the city wants intensification, they need to stop their focus on restricting housing developments, and instead focus on driving more intensified commercial office & retail development around the core/transitway.

You do understand the complex is already built.

[Acajack]

I would say that the largest single area of residence for NDHQ staff is Orleans, with the vast majority of these people commuting by bus.

Most of these people settled in Orleans when arriving in the region because of the good Transitway connection from that community to NDHQ on the east side of downtown.

If DND does move to the Nortel campus, it will be based on the same logic (illogic?) as the RCMP move, which was done in spite of the fact that 70% of RCMP HQ staff live in Gatineau and Orleans. Although RCMP HQ on Vanier Pkwy. was far from being as transit-friendly as NDHQ is, it was nonetheless a good exemple of transportation options driving place of residence choices. Vanier Parkway is accessible via the 174-417 coming in from Orleans, and the Macdonald-Cartier-St. Patrick-Vanier route coming in from Gatineau.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by DubberDom

If the city wants intensification, they need to stop their focus on restricting housing developments, and instead focus on driving more intensified commercial office & retail development around the core/transitway.

Although I think housing intensification is good, I agree 100% that densifying office and retail development is the most critical aspect of this.

I don't think think that the City of Ottawa approving large estate housing lots in Greely or Carlsbad Springs is a good idea, but most of the development in Orleans and Kanata that is being built these days is at a density that can be serviced by transit reasonably effectively. As evidenced by the fact that as suburban a place like Orleans can have a transit modal share that is equivalent or higher than that of many, many central parts of Toronto. It is not so much about where people live as it about where people are going to work. Much of the employment for Orleans residents is downtown or located along the Transitway corridor (Blair, St-Laurent, etc.), a fact which drives transit usage. Kanata has lower transit modal shares than Orleans because more of its employment is local and in low-density office parks that people have to drive to.

[flar]

I wouldn't want to work there...terrible location. However, if the feds didn't buy this huge campus, it would probably have sat empty forever.

[reidjr]

Originally Posted by flar

I wouldn't want to work there...terrible location. However, if the feds didn't buy this huge campus, it would probably have sat empty forever.

No i doubt it would have been empty.Its not that bad of a location at all.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by flar

I wouldn't want to work there...terrible location. However, if the feds didn't buy this huge campus, it would probably have sat empty forever.

I once worked in a place like this and hated it. You had drive 10 minutes to get a sandwich for your lunch.

I see your point about the need to occupy vacant buildings, but I would prefer to see the feds use it as a less staff-intensive facility (warehousing, etc.).

[Richard Eade]

I would have rather seen the $200M go into developing the Tremblay Road campus, directly south of St. Laurent Centre. (The other $8M could have built a nice pedestrian crossing to the mall and transit.)

[flar]

Originally Posted by reidjr

No i doubt it would have been empty.Its not that bad of a location at all.

Putting aside the location for a moment, who exactly would fill such a large space (other than the feds)?

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I once worked in a place like this and hated it. You had drive 10 minutes to get a sandwich for your lunch.

I see your point about the need to occupy vacant buildings, but I would prefer to see the feds use it as a less staff-intensive facility (warehousing, etc.).

The Carling Campus had a better food court than most malls - no need to drive anywhere.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by reidjr

Some one would have bought this site so its not like its the gov or nothing.When nortel was in its hayday alot of people did travel by bus i beleave oc even offered a special bus service.I have been on this site and for dnd or what every dept it is perfect there is 11 office buildings that includes gyms and cafes etc.I think there would have been alot of massive backlash if the gov came out and said were going to build 11 new office buildings downtown with gyms etc.That would cost double if not more then what they paud for this site.

At its peak, the Carling Campus had something like 12,000 employees. The road and transit systems seemed to handle the load back then (around 2000), so what is different now?

[reidjr]

Originally Posted by flar

Putting aside the location for a moment, who exactly would fill such a large space (other than the feds)?

Ericksson
I could have seen them buy it and make its north american hq.

Bell/Rogers
Could have bought it and made it hq.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by flar

Putting aside the location for a moment, who exactly would fill such a large space (other than the feds)?

Probably nobody. Carling was never designed for multi-tenant occupation so it would extremely difficult to divide up and lease. For eaxmple, some of the bulidngs (known as Labs back in the Nortel days) can only be accessed from other buildings. The federal government is probably the only single tenant that would need such a large amount of space.

Carling grew in fits and spurts from the 1950's through late 1990's, so the the layout of the building is very disjointed. It is exceptionally high quality office space, but too customized to be all that marketable. The Feds got a great deal on it.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by reidjr

Ericksson
I could have seen them buy it and make its north american hq.

Bell/Rogers
Could have bought it and made it hq.

Ericsson's NA HQ is in Texas, not all that far away from Nortel's former Richardson Campus, which was even larger than Carling. Ericsson has far too many employees in the North Dallas Telecom corridor to even consider relocating.

Roger's bought the former Nortel Bramalea Campus in Brampton. Bell's HQ is in Montreal.