Confederation Line West LRT Extension (Stage 2) [Tunney's to Baseline/Moodie] | U/C

[Kitchissippi]

I suspect the curves are there because of hydrology issues connected to Pinecrest Creek. They basically had to realign the creek in that area and daylight portions of it that were concealed in culverts.

That said, I really wished they had pushed both Iris and Algonquin stations about a hundred metres northward. I also think they should have not given up on the bus platforms on the Queensway, they might prove to be useful in the future. Had the station been completely north or Iris those stairs and elevators would be within easy walking distance.

When the Baseline Transitway becomes a reality, the detour to Algonquin station will result in a big loss in time and energy.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Yup, that whole area is a mess.

It went from a plan to have the buses run on Navaho (which is why that overpass is so wide, and oddly configured) to moving the buses to the south (to, apparently, free up Ottawa-owned developable land along Woodroffe, between Navaho and Baseline roads for TOD, and keep the P&R). That forced Algonquin to flip its building design (which is why there is such an awkward entrance to the loading area that requires a U-turn on Navaho). But even after such a drastic change, the City didn’t re-evaluate other components.

The tunnel, for instance was designed to have trains in the inside tubes stopping at a central platform – which, it seems, is what is still going to happen. And the outside tubes were to carry buses from the south to a turning loop around the headhouse, north of Navaho. Once it became clear that the buses would be stopping south of College Ave., those outer tubes could have been deleted – reducing the price of the tunnel, and making it more compact.

Alas, because there was so little actual understanding of what the City wanted in the first place, meaning that major decisions were now being made on the fly, it was too late to put the tunnel on a diet. An excuse was created that the extra tubes would be used for train storage. Apparently, that was just spin. They are not even laying tracks for the trains to get to those tubes. (But, of course, it is a future possibility – like the additional station east of Blair, near Gloucester High School.)

Now, look at the bus loop that we are getting at the future Algonquin Station. (Yes, J.OT13, it is so far away from Baseline Road, that they are changing the name to drop the road reference.) The idea for the north loop was a tight loop that dropped people right at the headhouse. The new loop is HUGE. Like Hurdman, and Tunney’s Pasture, it will involve lots of unsheltered walking to bus stops.

I remember the enormous cost of building those tunnels and all the design work put into the station plan. Oh well, just like the 2006 plan, easy come, easy go. What's many, many millions of our tax money spent for nothing useful.

There will never be a station at Gloucester High School.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I suspect the curves are there because of hydrology issues connected to Pinecrest Creek. They basically had to realign the creek in that area and daylight portions of it that were concealed in culverts.

Yeah, environmentally and economically, that route is about as straight as it could have been drawn.

That said, I really wished they had pushed both Iris and Algonquin stations about a hundred metres northward. I also think they should have not given up on the bus platforms on the Queensway, they might prove to be useful in the future.

Very hard same – it would also provide flexibility for detour or replacement routings when the train or other bus routes need to be upended from time to time.

When the Baseline Transitway becomes a reality, the detour to Algonquin station will result in a big loss in time and energy.

Or, more accurately, prolong the waste of time and energy that already exists. I wish these things were better accounted for during planning phases. The amount of person-hours unnecessarily lost by these bad decisions starts to add up after a while.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Or, more accurately, prolong the waste of time and energy that already exists. I wish these things were better accounted for during planning phases. The amount of person-hours unnecessarily lost by these bad decisions starts to add up after a while.

As with everything else in this City, I think they exclusively thought of Barrhaven riders transferring at Algonquin. Got to make it as quick and easy for them as possible, inner Greenbelt riders using Baseline BRT be damned.

[Richard Eade]

It might be useful for some people to use the GeoOttawa map to view the older satellite images to see where the Pinecrest Creek actually flowed, naturally. It ran through the Ryan’s farm, crossed under Baseline Road, roughly between, what is now, College Square, and the Home Depot. In the ‘olden days’, the gully ran along the east side of Shoppers’ City West, and I remember that there were always shopping carts from Steinberg’s and Towers down in the ravine.

(And, can you believe, Algonquin College students had to walk ALL THE WAY from the bus stops on Baseline Road, through the passageway in the Shoppers’ City to the college? Absolutely crazy. Of course, as the Baseline/Woodroffe intersection got busier, there was a reason to shift the buses onto Navaho – and what was to become Wajashk. It by-passed the delays of the intersection, and moved the buses closer to a large ridership-generator. Shifting the buses further south along the Nigig and Adjidjack, is harder for me to justify.)

That section of the Pinecrest Creek was – and still is – well east of Woodroffe, and had no bearing on where the Baseline tunnel was cut, or its orientation. The tunnel was simply laid out to fit a rectilinear configuration, roughly parallel to Woodroffe Ave.; the same way the original Baseline Transitway Station had been. The difference is, however, that buses are much more capable of plying curves.

As for the section of the Pinecrest Creek that flowed between Baseline Road and Iris, it naturally ran more on the west side of the corridor for the southern 2/3. It was moved to the east to make way for the Transitway. The Transitway was slotted into the center of the available greenspace to minimize complaints from the neighbouring homes. The owners were happier getting a creek and trees to buffer the Transitway noise.

If the train tracks had been laid in a straight line, from the 417 underpass to the Baseline underpass, the creek could have been returned to closer to its original path. Indeed, the northern third was moved west. That left only the central third still displaced to the east. Moving it back would have removed the need for two bridges over the creek, as it was moved east for that middle portion and then returned to the west.

Yes, the train would have been closer to the east-side homes, but an electric train, traveling on a straight track, makes much less noise than diesel buses running at speed along the Transitway.

Again, just crying over spilled milk. Nothing about this bad configuration is going to be changed. I just hope that some amount of common sense can sneak into future City transit planning.

[ponyboycurtis]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

At every conceivable juncture in the LRT saga, the designers have shown a consistent inability to think like a passenger.

Holy smokes brother that is uncomfortably true.

[Kitchissippi]

Pinecrest Creek was a major factor in the design of the ROW between Baseline and Iris. In fact the construction of the large storm water ponds east of Woodroffe and north of Baseline was rolled into the LRT contracts. The ponds flow into the creek, technically functioning as its headwaters now.

[Richard Eade]

So, magical ponds that generate water? I think that you will find, kitchissippi, that the water that runs in the Pinecrest Creek comes from where it has always come from, further south. The ponds are simply a wide bow added to the creek in hopes of slowing large flows.

Jump onto Google Maps/Earth and take a look. Between Royal Paan and Dulux Pain there is a diversion of the creek. Where the creek used to flow west (along the dry-ish looking bed), it now turns north into the deeper half of the pond. I believe that there is still an overflow out to the west bed. Once in the pond, the creek flows through metered openings around the big bend. If flow is too high, it backs up into the ‘holding areas’ of the pond. This structure is only a buffer so that high flows do not go further downstream. (The addition of this pond is another reason that moving the LRT away from the ‘flood zone’ near Lincoln Fields was only spin.) Just as a lake behind a hydroelectric dam does not become the headwater of a river, this pond has not become the headwater of Pinecrest Creek.

And, yes, the creek was a major factor during the selection of the train’s alignment between Baseline Road and Iris. In the early stages, the ‘plan’ was to have the tracks go OVER the creek as it crossed diagonally under Iris. This was one of the reasons for Iris being built up so high to go over the train. Eventually, it was decided to move the creek west. That removed some restrictions in the Train/Iris crossing. Unfortunately, not all of the restrictions were removed, since they kept the mid-section of the creek crossing to the east and then back.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

So, magical ponds that generate water? I think that you will find, kitchissippi, that the water that runs in the Pinecrest Creek comes from where it has always come from, further south. The ponds are simply a wide bow added to the creek in hopes of slowing large flows.

WTF? Where did I say that the ponds generated water? They were designed to collect runoff and storm water from the surrounding community. Whatever vestiges of Pinecrest Creek beyond the ponds have been reduced to culverts and storm sewers, some of which run invisibly beneath College Square and Algonquin, and ergo, can no longer really be considered a "creek". My statement that "The ponds flow into the creek, technically functioning as its headwaters now" is not statement from a naive child who credits things to magic.

The point here is that the reconfiguration of Pinecrest Creek was done partly for the hydrological stability of the O-Train ROW between Baseline and Lincoln Fields, and even dictated the use of the flyover towards Queensview.

OC Transpo has a page dedicated to this subject: https://www.octranspo.com/en/news/article/pinecrest-creek-stormwater-pond-o-train-extension

[Richard Eade]

Sorry, kitchissippi. I thought that the magical pond comment was flippant enough that you would recognize it as just a silly flourish.

Yes, the southern portion of the Pinecrest Creek is a culverted creek, but it still exists – just as the northern section that runs through a culvert, from the grate between the LRT flyover and Carling to the Ottawa River, is still the Pinecrest Creek. A creek does not materialize and then cease to exist just because only a portion is visible. A creek can be put into a culvert, but it still exists.

The problem with calling the Pinecrest Pond (or Stormwater Retention Pond) the ‘HEADWATERS’ – even with the modifier ‘technically’ – is that it tags the pond as THE SOURCE of the creek – which it is not. The pond is predominantly a BUFFER to regulate downstream flow rates. (I say predominantly because it also has a minor contribution from stormwater that collects in the damp areas to the south-east of the pond. Look on an areal view, and you will see the riprap paths.)

Once the Pinecrest Pond is holding its normal volume of water (which it likely is now), the volume of water flowing through the culverted south portion of the creek into the pond and the volume flowing out of the pond, into the visible section of the creek, will be roughly equal. So, when you stand on the Pinecrest Creek Pathway Bridge over the creek, on a sunny summer day, the volume of water flowing beneath you is the same as the volume of water that is flowing through the culverted creek into the pond.

I apologize, kitchissippi, for offending you with my flip remark.

[J.OT13]

Sherbourne Station last weekend. The headhouse seems quite spacious. Plenty of fare gates, double elevators. A very nice addition to the area.





At the back is the multi level park feature that hides the ventilation system.

[Kitchissippi]

They've been busy all week installing the catenary wires in the trench all the way into Tunneys Pasture. I hope it's not too long before we see test trains running through.