Ottawa Bypass Corridor

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Or go to a single lane and have people pull over onto the shoulder to let oncoming traffic pass?

There are significant safety benefits to going from 2 lanes to 4 on heavily used roads, beyond 4 lanes the only benefit is a small increase in capacity, and induced demand means that increased capacity will quickly be eaten up.

For this reason, I have been opposed to the current widening of the 417 from 6 to 8 lanes. It could be more easily justified if they were designed as HOV or bus lanes, but the plan is to make them open to all motor vehicles.

Based on the design plans, and what has been implemented so far from Carling west, I understood the 'widening' is mostly extensions of on-ramps into the next off-ramps. To fix the capacity issues at several of our local streets causing backups and dangerous accidents (Bronson off-ramp eastbound? remember that?). Will the 'new' highway truly be 8 lanes each way, PLUS on/off ramps? Doesn't seem like there's enough space for that, even with the new bridges.

[lrt's friend]

Frankly, a bypass highway would be a sprawl and car inducing project at enormous cost, yet we dismiss an express train across the city on an existing and almost unused rail line, mainly because we would have to build a new bridge across the Rideau River to separate it from Via Rail trains. Definitely (sarcasm), it would be cheaper to build an expressway bridge further south and a grade separated highway with numerous interchanges and a bridge across Ottawa River that would not support transit in any way. I shake my head that a 'ring road' would be a good city building project in the 21st century. It says to me that we have given up on transit and that the Confed Line is an utter failure as a step towards an efficient transit network.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is a very different proposition than the bypass being discussed. At best, this speaks to the need to upgrade the 17 and maybe extend the 417 further. These numbers in no way show substantial demand for bypassing Ottawa.

Yea my apologies: I’ve digressed substantially from the topic at hand.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Harley613

I can't tell you how many times Google Maps has taken me to the airport via Bronson from Kanata and Orleans. Hunt Club can be a real shit show.

Even right now, post traffic, Google Maps suggests 417/Riverside/Bronson/Airport Parkway as taking the exact same amount of time as Hunt Club from Place d'Orleans. It suggest 22 minutes from Kanata Centrum to the Airport via Bronson as opposed to 29 minutes by Hunt Club.

In other words, Bronson is your best bet out of traffic and often during traffic hours. That's because Hunt Club is not a real ring road.

If there isn't much congestion on the Queensway and Bronson, that is the faster route to the airport, mostly because the speed limits are higher for longer and there are fewer traffic lights. During rush hour, Hunt Club is the faster route (though it too can have bad congestion), especially on either side of the Michael J. E. Sheflin Bridge and at Woodroffe. If you primary objective is to relive pressure on Bronson, upgrading Hunt Club would likely be a more affordable and effective option than building a new bypass.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by acottawa

There is a difference between arguing for replacing worn out equipment and building silly vanity projects with no reasonable benefit compared to the needed costs.

The military is one big vanity project. Anyone who wants to argue that is either blind to how our military is, or does not want to admit it. We are there to look pretty and not make the government look bad.

Originally Posted by acottawa

Everything west of the 7 is renfrew county which has a population of about 100 k.

I estimated the population of the catchment at 2 million, Ottawa, Gatineau, neighbouring counties and maybe Brockville and Cornwall.

This is not about the people living close to Ottawa. I already said west of North Bay and east of Montreal. That is more like 20 million... But,no not that many people will actually use the highway.... It is part of the trans Canada highway system. So, unless cross Canada traffic that goes through Ottawa actually stops in Ottawa, the bypass would serve them.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Frankly, a bypass highway would be a sprawl and car inducing project at enormous cost, yet we dismiss an express train across the city on an existing and almost unused rail line, mainly because we would have to build a new bridge across the Rideau River to separate it from Via Rail trains. Definitely (sarcasm), it would be cheaper to build an expressway bridge further south and a grade separated highway with numerous interchanges and a bridge across Ottawa River that would not support transit in any way. I shake my head that a 'ring road' would be a good city building project in the 21st century. It says to me that we have given up on transit and that the Confed Line is an utter failure as a step towards an efficient transit network.

Both should be done. I am even for a GO train style system in the Ottawa area

[phil235]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Frankly, a bypass highway would be a sprawl and car inducing project at enormous cost, yet we dismiss an express train across the city on an existing and almost unused rail line, mainly because we would have to build a new bridge across the Rideau River to separate it from Via Rail trains. Definitely (sarcasm), it would be cheaper to build an expressway bridge further south and a grade separated highway with numerous interchanges and a bridge across Ottawa River that would not support transit in any way. I shake my head that a 'ring road' would be a good city building project in the 21st century. It says to me that we have given up on transit and that the Confed Line is an utter failure as a step towards an efficient transit network.

Fully agree with your comment on the bypass. There is no way that a ring road is good policy or a wise investment in this day and age. I can't think of a single new highway that hasn't induced massive sprawl and more car use. As a tool to ease congestion, a ring road would be a very short term proposition at best.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by phil235

Fully agree with your comment on the bypass. There is no way that a ring road is good policy or a wise investment in this day and age. I can't think of a single new highway that hasn't induced massive sprawl and more car use. As a tool to ease congestion, a ring road would be a very short term proposition at best.

I'm not even sure a ring road would induce traffic. That only happens when a highway connects two desirable points between which people want to travel. This is a proposal from nowhere to nowhere. And not one post in this thread has shown any actual evidence of demand that would justify this.

Thankfully, I don't even think this highway friendly provincial government would entertain this ridiculous idea. There's a lot more votes to be had building highways where people might actually use them.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by phil235

Fully agree with your comment on the bypass. There is no way that a ring road is good policy or a wise investment in this day and age. I can't think of a single new highway that hasn't induced massive sprawl and more car use. As a tool to ease congestion, a ring road would be a very short term proposition at best.

So incredibly wrong. Just look at Calgary as an example. The ring road has done so much to improve quality of life, the economy, and reign in sprawl. Ottawa will continue to lose opportunities to diversify the economy, grow the burgeoning logistics sector, ease ever worsening gridlock through the core, and stop the spread of the outer suburbs without a proper ring road. So many people just 'NEW ROAD BAD. INDUCED DEMAND. BAD FOR ENVIRONMENT' without realizing we aren't over building by creating a ring road, we are just barely catching up.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'm not even sure a ring road would induce traffic. That only happens when a highway connects two desirable points between which people want to travel. This is a proposal from nowhere to nowhere. And not one post in this thread has shown any actual evidence of demand that would justify this.

Thankfully, I don't even think this highway friendly provincial government would entertain this ridiculous idea. There's a lot more votes to be had building highways where people might actually use them.

Agree that this route is going to be underused, but I do see the potential for induced demand. Assuming that the ring road is somewhere near the city, I think the induced traffic would come from suburb to suburb travel, and a big expansion of places like Leitrim and Greeley. More car dependent development will equal more cars.

By chance I just happened across a video on ring roads that makes a lot of the same points:

Ring Roads: Why We Spend Billions So We Can Drive In Circles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELxhswMvrhc

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The military is one big vanity project. Anyone who wants to argue that is either blind to how our military is, or does not want to admit it. We are there to look pretty and not make the government look bad.

The Canadian military is an attempt to meet our NATO obligations. We might be falling short on that attempt, but it is still an attempt.

This is not about the people living close to Ottawa. I already said west of North Bay and east of Montreal. That is more like 20 million... But,no not that many people will actually use the highway.... It is part of the trans Canada highway system. So, unless cross Canada traffic that goes through Ottawa actually stops in Ottawa, the bypass would serve them.

While it might officially be part of the TransCanada Highway system, but that is really just a symbolic gesture. Also, don't forget that when the TransCanada highway was mapped out, Toronto played second fiddle to Montreal as Canada's largest and most influential city and Toronto was only considered worth a detour, not a destination unto itself.

Both should be done. I am even for a GO train style system in the Ottawa area

Please don't encourage the government build North America's second largest collection of parking garages (second only to Metrolinx in the GTHA).

Seriously though, without a downtown station, commuter rail becomes problematic as it would overload the O-Train on the busiest segment of the route in the same direction as the normal commuter flow. When you combine that with the tiny populations in Ottawa's exurbs, the utilization beyond the suburbs would be low.

If the Ontario government wanted to do something (which they don't) a GO bus network would be a great start. Buses can pick up people closer to where they live, are smaller, so that they can provide more frequent service and would encourage the government to build HOV lanes on the provincial highways to get travel times that are as fast, if not faster, than a train would be.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Harley613

So incredibly wrong. Just look at Calgary as an example. The ring road has done so much to improve quality of life, the economy, and reign in sprawl. Ottawa will continue to lose opportunities to diversify the economy, grow the burgeoning logistics sector, ease ever worsening gridlock through the core, and stop the spread of the outer suburbs without a proper ring road. So many people just 'NEW ROAD BAD. INDUCED DEMAND. BAD FOR ENVIRONMENT' without realizing we aren't over building by creating a ring road, we are just barely catching up.

Calgary doesn’t have an EW Freeway going through the centre of the city.

Calgary’s ring road is 10ish km from the centre of the city. The Ottawa Road to Nowhere is almost 30. As I said in an earlier post, a ring road might have been a good alternative to the Queensway in the 1950s. That window closed long ago.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The Canadian military is an attempt to meet our NATO obligations. We might be falling short on that attempt, but it is still an attempt.

You are proving my point.

Originally Posted by roger1818

While it might officially be part of the TransCanada Highway system, but that is really just a symbolic gesture. Also, don't forget that when the TransCanada highway was mapped out, Toronto played second fiddle to Montreal as Canada's largest and most influential city and Toronto was only considered worth a detour, not a destination unto itself.

Canada lacked the foresight to organize a national highway system. That does not mean that cross Canada routes don't exist. The 417 is more important for cross Canada traffic than the 401 is, even if the 401 has the higher volume.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Please don't encourage the government build North America's second largest collection of parking garages (second only to Metrolinx in the GTHA).

Seriously though, without a downtown station, commuter rail becomes problematic as it would overload the O-Train on the busiest segment of the route in the same direction as the normal commuter flow. When you combine that with the tiny populations in Ottawa's exurbs, the utilization beyond the suburbs would be low.

If the Ontario government wanted to do something (which they don't) a GO bus network would be a great start. Buses can pick up people closer to where they live, are smaller, so that they can provide more frequent service and would encourage the government to build HOV lanes on the provincial highways to get travel times that are as fast, if not faster, than a train would be.

There is a lot to unpack here....

1) Not suggesting the bad things of GO, like the massive parking structures. Instead, better local bus and RT to the stations as well as TOD at each station. That could stop, or at least slow down the sprawl.

2) Ottawa "has" a downtown station. Currently though, it is being used by the Senate and there are no tracks to it. It is about 3km to the nearest tracks, but a tunnel could be built. Think that can't be done? Mount Royal has a 5.5km tunnel under it for rail to downtown Montreal.

3) Absolutely, a GO bus network should be set up. I would say roughly 100km from the "downtown station" mentioned above. That would extend to places like Pembroke, Cornwall, Brockville, Smiths Falls,Perth, Hawskbury, and even Maniwaki. Once ridership gets to a certain point, a commuter rail service could be brought in.

All of this does not negate the need for a bypass around the city.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

Agree that this route is going to be underused, but I do see the potential for induced demand. Assuming that the ring road is somewhere near the city, I think the induced traffic would come from suburb to suburb travel, and a big expansion of places like Leitrim and Greeley. More car dependent development will equal more cars.

By chance I just happened across a video on ring roads that makes a lot of the same points:

Ring Roads: Why We Spend Billions So We Can Drive In Circles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELxhswMvrhc

But who is going from exurb to exurb. If you live in Tewin 90% of your trips are going to be down the Queensway

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

But who is going from exurb to exurb. If you live in Tewin 90% of your trips are going to be down the Queensway

Live in Greeley, work in Kanata. Live in Russell, go to Algonquin. Live in Barrhaven, work at the wrong Amazon. That sort of thing. Which we would be encouraging.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

This is not about the people living close to Ottawa. I already said west of North Bay and east of Montreal. That is more like 20 million... But,no not that many people will actually use the highway.... It is part of the trans Canada highway system. So, unless cross Canada traffic that goes through Ottawa actually stops in Ottawa, the bypass would serve them.

There is a perfectly good highway running through Ottawa to serve the Trans-Canada crowd. The Ontario government is spending billions to widen it. When not under construction it is uncongested 22 hours a day. It makes no sense to spend billions and chew up thousands of acres of farmland so some guy from Sudbury can drive his pickup way over the speed limit to go to Montreal.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by acottawa

There is a perfectly good highway running through Ottawa to serve the Trans-Canada crowd. The Ontario government is spending billions to widen it. When not under construction it is uncongested 22 hours a day. It makes no sense to spend billions and chew up thousands of acres of farmland so some guy from Sudbury can drive his pickup way over the speed limit to go to Montreal.

Even in winter, with clear roads, unless I drive in the really early AM, I have yet to not experience those 2 hours you speak of.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

Live in Greeley, work in Kanata. Live in Russell, go to Algonquin. Live in Barrhaven, work at the wrong Amazon. That sort of thing. Which we would be encouraging.

This ring road would not help the Russel to Algonquin commuter, they would be way better off taking the Queensway.

The Kanata Greeley commuter is going the opposite direction of rush hour. At most they need improvements to Mitch Owens drive.

Isn’t there a giant amazon warehouse on the 416? How would the ring road help that trip from Barrhaven?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Even in winter, with clear roads, unless I drive in the really early AM, I have yet to not experience those 2 hours you speak of.

Your definition of congestion is not being able to speed, so what you claim is congestion is not really relevant to whether there is congestion.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Harley613

So incredibly wrong. Just look at Calgary as an example. The ring road has done so much to improve quality of life, the economy, and reign in sprawl. Ottawa will continue to lose opportunities to diversify the economy, grow the burgeoning logistics sector, ease ever worsening gridlock through the core, and stop the spread of the outer suburbs without a proper ring road. So many people just 'NEW ROAD BAD. INDUCED DEMAND. BAD FOR ENVIRONMENT' without realizing we aren't over building by creating a ring road, we are just barely catching up.

Originally Posted by phil235

Agree that this route is going to be underused, but I do see the potential for induced demand. Assuming that the ring road is somewhere near the city, I think the induced traffic would come from suburb to suburb travel, and a big expansion of places like Leitrim and Greeley. More car dependent development will equal more cars.

Suburb to suburb travel happens when you connect residential areas and employment nodes. I'm not sold that Leitrim or Greeley would ever be major employment hubs or even substantial suburbs. But proposed idea doesn't even connect to them:



A road that runs 10 km south of Barrhaven isn't going to be a ring road. It serves nobody but Kars, Metcalfe, etc. And even then, it's basically a faster drive to the 416. Marginally helps going between Kanata and Embrun. Works as a bypass. Useless as a ring road.

If there was ever to be a ring road for Ottawa, it would basically be where Bankfield Rd and Mitch Owens Rd are today. Who wants to tell Manotick that we need to bulldoze a path right through the centre of their community for a new highway to enable marginally faster travel between Limoges and Stittsville?

There's probably a case for Hwy 7 to extend its dual carriageway till Hwy 15 and for 15 to be upgraded from Carleton Place to Kingston with a Smith's Falls bypass. But an Ottawa bypass to connect Perth to Embrun is rather useless.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

This ring road would not help the Russel to Algonquin commuter, they would be way better off taking the Queensway.

The Kanata Greeley commuter is going the opposite direction of rush hour. At most they need improvements to Mitch Owens drive.

Isn’t there a giant amazon warehouse on the 416? How would the ring road help that trip from Barrhaven?

I said the "wrong Amazon" because I was meaning the one on the 417 east.

I agree with you that the volumes or time savings wouldn't warrant a new 400-series highway. I was just making the point that there are suburb to suburb commutes that it would help, and it would encourage more of those to happen, by car.