Ottawa Bypass Corridor

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Yes, and that seems to be a theme on that highway for the last 5-10+ years.

Yes, to make the highway wider so there is less congestion.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

So how many people would you estimate in a given day drive from Montreal to Sudbury?

People driving across the country for tourist reasons often want to stop in the country’s capital city.

Once we spend billions to save them a few minutes they will flock to the new route. Won't be filled with new suburban commuters for sure.

Why do so many people on this forum who have such hate for the car and want every route to downtown turned into a bike route support ring roads or bridges to Quebec?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Anyone going east/west and not needing to go through Toronto will take 17/417. Prime example is when I go to Montreal from Sudbury.

I don't think anyone said that no-one does it, but the number of cars per day is very low.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You mean no one crosses Canada? How narrow minded are you?

Do you really think that thousands of people cross Canada every day, significantly contributing to the congestion in Ottawa?

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

My definition of congestion is not able to maintain the posted limit in any lane.

So if you are mildly inconvenienced we should build a new bypass so that you can drive on a road all to yourself?

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Is everyone here too young to not remember "Keep apart 2 chevrons"?

No, but we don't have chevrons painted on the 417, so why does that matter? Besides, the chevrons were likely about 30 m apart, given the MTO's guidelines, not over 100 m apart.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Yes, and that seems to be a theme on that highway for the last 5-10+ years.

That's what happens when all the overpasses that were built within about a decade of each other reach the end of their useful life and the province decides to widen the highway from 6 to 8 lanes while they are at it, so they decide to gradually replace them all. Its not a permanent problem.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

So how many people would you estimate in a given day drive from Montreal to Sudbury?

People driving across the country for tourist reasons often want to stop in the country’s capital city.

And they may also want to stop in Canada's largest city as well.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by acottawa

So how many people would you estimate in a given day drive from Montreal to Sudbury?

People driving across the country for tourist reasons often want to stop in the country’s capital city.

That is such a narrow view. Take everywhere west of North Bay and everywhere east of Montreal. All of those people who may drive will likely go through Ottawa. Actual numbers? I don't know.

As far as tourism, how many people west of Highway 7 visit a place like Calypso? You know, a tourist thing on the far east side of the city?
For me, the last time I went to Montreal, at the beginning of the month, I spent all of a few short hours in Ottawa. They were to pick up something at a store we don't have, and to eat a meal. And that was on the way home. On the way there, I did not stop for anything.

Originally Posted by acottawa

Yes, to make the highway wider so there is less congestion.

Well, so far it is causing congestion. So, when it is all done, there will be no congestion?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Well, so far it is causing congestion. So, when it is all done, there will be no congestion?

You might want to learn about induced demand. Adding lanes or roads will not fix congestion. The automobile is one of the most cost ineffective way of moving people. You of all people should know that. The autotopia vision of the 60's and 70's was misguided.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

You might want to learn about induced demand. Adding lanes or roads will not fix congestion. The automobile is one of the most cost ineffective way of moving people. You of all people should know that. The autotopia vision of the 60's and 70's was misguided.

I know about that, and that is the point. That is also why a bypass could mitigate things causing congestion, like that. By having an alternative, you are not forcing everyone to sit in congestion. It could even be tolled. The 407 hardly gets congested and that is the goal. Give people who are not going into the city an option. Or build out the 417 to 18 lanes....

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I know about that, and that is the point. That is also why a bypass could mitigate things causing congestion, like that. By having an alternative, you are not forcing everyone to sit in congestion. It could even be tolled. The 407 hardly gets congested and that is the goal. Give people who are not going into the city an option.

The problem with the 407 is that it is tolled for maximum profitability, not for optimal traffic flow. As such, it is too expensive for most people to use regularly.

Having said that, a strategic plan to toll the 417 would be a much more effective way of reducing congestion than either widening it or building a bypass.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Or build out the 417 to 18 lanes....

The fact that you even mention building it out to 18 lanes means you don't understand induced demand.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

That is such a narrow view. Take everywhere west of North Bay and everywhere east of Montreal. All of those people who may drive will likely go through Ottawa. Actual numbers? I don't know.

As far as tourism, how many people west of Highway 7 visit a place like Calypso? You know, a tourist thing on the far east side of the city?
For me, the last time I went to Montreal, at the beginning of the month, I spent all of a few short hours in Ottawa. They were to pick up something at a store we don't have, and to eat a meal. And that was on the way home. On the way there, I did not stop for anything.

Probably minuscule numbers. Traffic on Highway 17 is pretty light once you get past the Ottawa exurbs.

West of Highway 7 is probably 5% of Calypso’s catchment, so maybe 1000 people a day for the little over 2 months it is open. And this circular route would still not be faster for those people than just driving down the Queensway.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Probably minuscule numbers. Traffic on Highway 17 is pretty light once you get past the Ottawa exurbs.

Actually it can get heavy around Pembroke and Petawawa unless they count as exurban Ottawa too.
On its own, AADT along that stretch is 8.3K. But if we also count traffic that currently uses Petawawa Boulevard between the two places, that number goes up to 25K (or 12.5K per road, which is a lot for a 2-lane roadway).
How many people here actually go past Arnprior...

Ps: AADT is as high as 7.4K until Deep River. These are numbers that warrant new alignment designed to freeway standards (even if it will start out as a staged freeway). In fact, MTO threshold for that kind of warrant is as low as 4K AADT.
(AADT only nosedives to 2.9K after Deep River.)

[yotajoe]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Probably minuscule numbers. Traffic on Highway 17 is pretty light once you get past the Ottawa exurbs.

Tell me you don't drive the 17 without telling me you don't drive the 17....

[yotajoe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

You might want to learn about induced demand. Adding lanes or roads will not fix congestion. The automobile is one of the most cost ineffective way of moving people. You of all people should know that. The autotopia vision of the 60's and 70's was misguided.

Ah yes lets just reduce all the highways to two lane roads instead. Congestion will be the same and they're cheaper to maintain.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

You might want to learn about induced demand. Adding lanes or roads will not fix congestion. The automobile is one of the most cost ineffective way of moving people. You of all people should know that. The autotopia vision of the 60's and 70's was misguided.

Seriously. Dude regularly crying about why we don't have cross country rail service is arguing that not being able to maintain the posted limit is justification for a multi-billion dollar (because that is what this hare brained idea would probably cost) bypass.

What is the value? Is every dude from Perth and Pembroke traveling at rush hour carrying perishables that have lifespans of a few hours? If so, I'll agree with a need for the bypass. If they're not all carrying human organs to be delivered to CHEO, I think that money is better spent elsewhere. The cost of this highway would probably pay to double track and electrify the Trillium Line. Still think this is a good idea?

Here's an easy test: every time you dream of a new highway. Imagine it has to be tolled enough to pay for itself over 50 years. If it doesn't pass that test, it's not worth building. This thing wouldn't pay for itself in a century.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by yotajoe

Ah yes lets just reduce all the highways to two lane roads instead. Congestion will be the same and they're cheaper to maintain.

Or go to a single lane and have people pull over onto the shoulder to let oncoming traffic pass?

There are significant safety benefits to going from 2 lanes to 4 on heavily used roads, beyond 4 lanes the only benefit is a small increase in capacity, and induced demand means that increased capacity will quickly be eaten up.

For this reason, I have been opposed to the current widening of the 417 from 6 to 8 lanes. It could be more easily justified if they were designed as HOV or bus lanes, but the plan is to make them open to all motor vehicles.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Actually it can get heavy around Pembroke and Petawawa unless they count as exurban Ottawa too.
On its own, AADT along that stretch is 8.3K. But if we also count traffic that currently uses Petawawa Boulevard between the two places, that number goes up to 25K (or 12.5K per road, which is a lot for a 2-lane roadway).
How many people here actually go past Arnprior...

Ps: AADT is as high as 7.4K until Deep River. These are numbers that warrant new alignment designed to freeway standards (even if it will start out as a staged freeway). In fact, MTO threshold for that kind of warrant is as low as 4K AADT.
(AADT only nosedives to 2.9K after Deep River.)

Thanks for the stats, I usually get off at 60. Since it sounds like the Pembroke-Petawawa is local traffic, those don’t sound like people who would benefit from a theoretical ring road. The 2.9k after deep river sounds more like the upper limit of the long distance drivers between Sudbury and Montreal. It is more than likely a fraction of that number who want to bypass Ottawa.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Probably minuscule numbers. Traffic on Highway 17 is pretty light once you get past the Ottawa exurbs.

West of Highway 7 is probably 5% of Calypso’s catchment, so maybe 1000 people a day for the little over 2 months it is open. And this circular route would still not be faster for those people than just driving down the Queensway.

Can you give me numbers that are minuscule?
For that 5%, do you have any source?

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Actually it can get heavy around Pembroke and Petawawa unless they count as exurban Ottawa too.
On its own, AADT along that stretch is 8.3K. But if we also count traffic that currently uses Petawawa Boulevard between the two places, that number goes up to 25K (or 12.5K per road, which is a lot for a 2-lane roadway).
How many people here actually go past Arnprior...

Ps: AADT is as high as 7.4K until Deep River. These are numbers that warrant new alignment designed to freeway standards (even if it will start out as a staged freeway). In fact, MTO threshold for that kind of warrant is as low as 4K AADT.
(AADT only nosedives to 2.9K after Deep River.)

One could argue 2.9km from the west.... now what is the 40 and 20 east of Montreal AADT? If those total more than 4000, it has met the threshold.....

Originally Posted by yotajoe

Tell me you don't drive the 17 without telling me you don't drive the 17....

Seriously! I am wondering if they even have a drivers license, let a lone a vehicle of some sort.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Seriously. Dude regularly crying about why we don't have cross country rail service is arguing that not being able to maintain the posted limit is justification for a multi-billion dollar (because that is what this hare brained idea would probably cost) bypass.

What is the value? Is every dude from Perth and Pembroke traveling at rush hour carrying perishables that have lifespans of a few hours? If so, I'll agree with a need for the bypass. If they're not all carrying human organs to be delivered to CHEO, I think that money is better spent elsewhere. The cost of this highway would probably pay to double track and electrify the Trillium Line. Still think this is a good idea?

Here's an easy test: every time you dream of a new highway. Imagine it has to be tolled enough to pay for itself over 50 years. If it doesn't pass that test, it's not worth building. This thing wouldn't pay for itself in a century.

If it were tolled like 407 is, and it were free flowing, It likely would be paid off within 50 years.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Seriously. Dude regularly crying about why we don't have cross country rail service is arguing that not being able to maintain the posted limit is justification for a multi-billion dollar (because that is what this hare brained idea would probably cost) bypass.

What is the value? Is every dude from Perth and Pembroke traveling at rush hour carrying perishables that have lifespans of a few hours? If so, I'll agree with a need for the bypass. If they're not all carrying human organs to be delivered to CHEO, I think that money is better spent elsewhere. The cost of this highway would probably pay to double track and electrify the Trillium Line. Still think this is a good idea?

Here's an easy test: every time you dream of a new highway. Imagine it has to be tolled enough to pay for itself over 50 years. If it doesn't pass that test, it's not worth building. This thing wouldn't pay for itself in a century.

No different than arguing for more Defense spending.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

No different than arguing for more Defense spending.

There is a difference between arguing for replacing worn out equipment and building silly vanity projects with no reasonable benefit compared to the needed costs.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Can you give me numbers that are minuscule?
For that 5%, do you have any source?

Everything west of the 7 is renfrew county which has a population of about 100 k.

I estimated the population of the catchment at 2 million, Ottawa, Gatineau, neighbouring counties and maybe Brockville and Cornwall.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Actually it can get heavy around Pembroke and Petawawa unless they count as exurban Ottawa too.
On its own, AADT along that stretch is 8.3K. But if we also count traffic that currently uses Petawawa Boulevard between the two places, that number goes up to 25K (or 12.5K per road, which is a lot for a 2-lane roadway).
How many people here actually go past Arnprior...

Ps: AADT is as high as 7.4K until Deep River. These are numbers that warrant new alignment designed to freeway standards (even if it will start out as a staged freeway). In fact, MTO threshold for that kind of warrant is as low as 4K AADT.
(AADT only nosedives to 2.9K after Deep River.)

This is a very different proposition than the bypass being discussed. At best, this speaks to the need to upgrade the 17 and maybe extend the 417 further. These numbers in no way show substantial demand for bypassing Ottawa.