[Halifax] Skye Halifax (1565 Granville) | 66 m | 2 x 21 fl | U/C

[someone123]

It's hard to say what the finishes could have looked like or if that original proposal could ever have been built (though I think Hariri Pontarini was engaged to work on the original design so I doubt it was simply viewed as "throwaway"), but it seems remarkable to me that many years later when the city is growing much faster the scale, including maximum height and floor count, has shrunk and the proposal seems a bit more conservative in the scheme of contemporary architecture.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Any idea as to who can afford to live in the brave new world of new tall buildings in central Halifax ? Fixed rate for 5 year mortgage is 5.5%
https://www.td.com/ca/en/personal-banking/products/mortgages/mortgage-rates.
The future belongs to those living off peninsula Halifax.

:rolleyes

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by Hali87

...This is maybe halfway between Nova Centre and Queen's Marque in terms of "niceness". Definitely a step up from the Maple which itself is not bad. I guess I'm just more optimistic about how it will look once it's been built, and less confident that a redesign of the towers would result in a building that looks better from the vantage points that exist...

...The perspectives in the first two renderings don't really exist - in the first pretty much the entire building would be hidden behind the Jade and adjacent buildings, and in the second most of the wide tower would be hidden behind the Maple.

The light will not pour through the gap between buildings at grade level as shown in those renderings either. The surroundings just aren't open enough to allow that much light to penetrate.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

:rolleyes

Read the RCMP document I previously referenced. For every person living on the peninsula there are 5 living off the peninsula. Families predominantly live off the peninsula, their political power will increase and children will go to new schools. The burbs surrounding cities are where the politicians seek votes and dispense money - note the growth in population in Bedford, Sackville, Hammonds Plains. The peninsula has 2.5 councillors and last week several suburban councillors remarked on the concentration of capital funding on the peninsula and in the centre and the lack of funding off-peninsula. This will change as suburban councillors compare the cumulative spending over the last 5 years and once the issue gains traction in suburban communities the issue will become more prominent. The council can't even bring themselves to spend the money for a new fire station and fire department HQ off the Hammonds Plains road.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Read the RCMP document I previously referenced. For every person living on the peninsula there are 5 living off the peninsula. Families predominantly live off the peninsula, their political power will increase and children will go to new schools. The burbs surrounding cities are where the politicians seek votes and dispense money - note the growth in population in Bedford, Sackville, Hammonds Plains. The peninsula has 2.5 councillors and last week several suburban councillors remarked on the concentration of capital funding on the peninsula and in the centre and the lack of funding off-peninsula. This will change as suburban councillors compare the cumulative spending over the last 5 years and once the issue gains traction in suburban communities the issue will become more prominent. The council can't even bring themselves to spend the money for a new fire station and fire department HQ off the Hammonds Plains road.

As the city centre, primary business area, home to the primary cultural and educational institutions, and main tourist attractor, the peninsula IS important disproportionate to population. Sorry, it’s true.

Also, it’s home to some of the fastest growing parts of the city—between 2016 and 2021 it accounted for more than one-third of HRM’s population growth, so its political relevance actually grew a little, in that sense.

[MonctonRad]

There is a danger of an increasing disconnect between peninsula dwellers and the off peninsula suburbanites. I think peninsula councillors ignore this at their peril.

If more political power ultimately falls to the off peninsula suburbs, then the pet projects of peninsula dwellers could become at peril.

How do you combat this? By preventing this disconnect from happening. The best way to accomplish this is by having effective mass transportation options (and I don't mean a few BRTs). I mean regional passenger rail with meaningful frequencies supplemented by LRTs along major road corridors. I mean new bridges onto the peninsula from Spryfield over the NW Arm and from the southern end of the Circumferential across the harbour into the vicinity of the container port.

The peninsula needs to be considered as being inclusive rather than exclusive. If the peninsula is increasingly perceived as an exclusive enclave where suburbanites are not welcome, then the peninsula will lose its influence. Suburbanites need to feel engaged and welcome, not marginalized and excluded. A few BRTs and some new cycling lanes just don't cut it.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

between 2016 and 2021 it accounted for more than one-third of HRM’s population growth, so its political relevance actually grew a little, in that sense.

But then nearly 2/3rds of the growth in HRM by definition must have occurred off peninsula. The clock is ticking...........

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

How do you combat this? By preventing this disconnect from happening. The best way to accomplish this is by having effective mass transportation options (and I don't mean a few BRTs). I mean regional passenger rail with meaningful frequencies supplemented by LRTs along major road corridors. I mean new bridges onto the peninsula from Spryfield over the NW Arm and from the southern end of the Circumferential across into the vicinity of the container port.

.

I agree it would be terrible for the peninsula to become (or even be perceived as) some exclusive enclave, and I really hate the idea of an urban-suburban schism splitting the city apart politically (moreso).

But regional rail plus LRTs plus bridges over the Arm—oh my. Those are not in the cards in anything but a very long timeframe. I’ll be very happy with BRT as a major improvement and a partway step to LRT.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

But then nearly 2/3rds of the growth in HRM by definition must have occurred off peninsula. The clock is ticking...........

Yes, but with the peninsula only accounting for one in five/six residents, it’s punching above its weight, and slightly increased its proportion of the total HRM population. In 2016, 14.8 percent of the population; in 2021,16.4 percent. I’d be surprised if last year’s big influx didn’t push further in that direction. Obviously the lion’s share of the population will always be off-peninsula now, but is the peninsula losing its political and social importance? Just the opposite.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Read the RCMP document I previously referenced. For every person living on the peninsula there are 5 living off the peninsula. Families predominantly live off the peninsula, their political power will increase and children will go to new schools. The burbs surrounding cities are where the politicians seek votes and dispense money - note the growth in population in Bedford, Sackville, Hammonds Plains. The peninsula has 2.5 councillors and last week several suburban councillors remarked on the concentration of capital funding on the peninsula and in the centre and the lack of funding off-peninsula. This will change as suburban councillors compare the cumulative spending over the last 5 years and once the issue gains traction in suburban communities the issue will become more prominent. The council can't even bring themselves to spend the money for a new fire station and fire department HQ off the Hammonds Plains road.

As the heart of the city the peninsula will continue to grow for years to come! and has been the fastest growing for the last few years. What is your problem with the peninsula anyway? I want all the parts of the HRM to grow, whether its downtown or in the suburbs!

[Nouvellecosse]

One thing the 1/3 peninsula vs 2/3 off peninsula framing ignores is that the 2/3 off peninsula aren't really one cohesive thing in the way the peninsula is. For instance, Bedford and Sackville don't really have any sort of "oneness" with Dartmouth while Spryfield doesn't have much relationship with Cole Harbour, etc.

Let's say that the 2/3 region (which is actually a collection of smaller regions) decided it should be the one to get a new stadium instead of the peninsula. Only one place in that 2/3 region could get it, so which one would it be? And which one would be a better candidate than the 1/3 region? Is someone in Clayton Park really going to prefer a new stadium in Cole Harbour than on the peninsula?

The 1/3 vs 2/3 framing might be convenient for someone wanting to promote a suburban shift, but as someone who has lived in the HRM for 25 years (both on peninsula and several regions off peninsula) it doesn't make much real world sense.

[MonctonRad]

I lived in Halifax for nine years, all on the peninsula, so I understand "peninsula-think." (ie - the peninsula is the centre of the universe). I rarely ventured into the suburbs (except for exploratory drives or to go to MicMac Mall). On the peninsula I walked everywhere and (until my bicycle was stolen) cycled to the hospital too.

Since moving to Moncton, I have lived in the suburbs, and also understand suburban-think. I understand how much of a nuisance it is to go downtown, mostly because of parking, and don't go there much except for necessary errands (accountant, financial advisor), or, to go to hockey games at the Avenir Centre, or, occasionally to a nice restaurant. Aside from this, I stick to the suburbs because anything I want to do in the city (aside from the above) is located in the suburbs

I see both sides of the coin. The dissonance between city centre and suburban periphery is very real to me. The question is "how do we keep this disconnect from getting any worse????"

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by eastcoastal

The light will not pour through the gap between buildings at grade level as shown in those renderings either. The surroundings just aren't open enough to allow that much light to penetrate.

That's a good point. The renderings don't take shadows generated by the Jade (etc) into account. Although even then I think the courtyard area would have good sunlight penetration for a few hours in the early afternoon, varying a bit by season. The flip side is that having some shade is nice during the summer.

[Hali87]

The Peninsula is where most of the important stuff is - the large regional ("extraprovincial") hospitals, both container terminals, the largest navy base in the country, the Irving Shipyard, 5 of 6 universities and 1 of 3 NSCC campuses in HRM, the financial district, the entertainment district, the broadcasting studios, the arena, the "stadium", the convention centre, City Hall, Province House, Halifax Shopping Centre. Even if there weren't many people "living there", it still needs to function well. Of course there are a lot of people living there and there are a lot of residential units under construction that will soon be full of people. Most of the students and other temporary/part-time residents who can't vote and/or aren't counted as population live on the Peninsula, and most of the public/co-op/designated-low-income housing in the region is also there.

Off-Peninsula, there are Burnside and Woodside industrial parks, the other two NSCC campuses, MSVU, Dartmouth Crossing, Mic Mac Mall, the Mount Hope-Dartmouth General hospital cluster, Autoport, BIO, and YHZ (nearly all of these are dispersed through Dartmouth, MSVU is near Clayton Park). Other that that there aren't many regionally-important trip generators in the suburbs. Nearly all of them are on the Peninsula.

Over the next decade or so I think the trend will be that people who work on the Peninsula will tend to live there, and people who live in the suburbs will have more job/leisure/services options within their own neighbourhoods (including remote work, etc), with a lower proportion of people commuting from suburbs to Peninsula. The Peninsula will also feel substantially more crowded fairly soon. 10 years from now I think we might have a draft of the first plan that will eventually lead to some kind of rail transit but I don't think rail transit will be "available" here by then. An equally likely scenario is that the Mill Cove Ferry still doesn't exist by then and the draft plans 10 years from now are for a 3rd ferry route, or trying to decide between that or rail, again.

The suburbs here benefit from being surrounded by nature (forest and/or lakes and/or ocean) and having fairly good local services and retail, and are a bit quieter/more peaceful than the Peninsula (which can be a noisy place, even late at night). I can see the appeal.

[Keith P.]

A lot of the discussion here misses the key point. It makes little point to note that certain things tend to locate on the peninsula and other types of things tend to locate in the 'burbs. That is natural. The point nobody seems to get is that with 2/3rds of residents living in suburbs, approximately the same percentage of tax revenue and economic activity comes from there. But those people would tell you that they do not receive HRM services at that level. Call it the "bike lane effect" if you want, but the spending on things for the peninsula by Council because they believe in a certain philosophical model is disproportionately favoring the peninsula. It is a very different world outside the peninsula and most residents feel overtaxed and underserved by HRM given what they receive for their ever-increasing tax bills. Hopefully the chickens will come home to roost in the next election.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I agree it would be terrible for the peninsula to become (or even be perceived as) some exclusive enclave, and I really hate the idea of an urban-suburban schism splitting the city apart politically (moreso).

But regional rail plus LRTs plus bridges over the Arm—oh my. Those are not in the cards in anything but a very long timeframe. I’ll be very happy with BRT as a major improvement and a partway step to LRT.

I'm not so sure many would consider BRT to be a 'major improvement'. Perhaps those who already use the bus system would think this way but I'm skeptical that BRT will convince other residents to give up their cars and switch to public transit. And as far as BRT being a 'partway step' towards LRT, I'm assuming you mean the creation of BRT corridores that could at some future time be switched to LRT? Given the grade requirements of LRT vs. a bus I'm doubtful this could ever be accomplished given the hilly nature of our cty and the proposed BRT routes.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

A lot of the discussion here misses the key point. It makes little point to note that certain things tend to locate on the peninsula and other types of things tend to locate in the 'burbs. That is natural. The point nobody seems to get is that with 2/3rds of residents living in suburbs, approximately the same percentage of tax revenue and economic activity comes from there. But those people would tell you that they do not receive HRM services at that level. Call it the "bike lane effect" if you want, but the spending on things for the peninsula by Council because they believe in a certain philosophical model is disproportionately favoring the peninsula. It is a very different world outside the peninsula and most residents feel overtaxed and underserved by HRM given what they receive for their ever-increasing tax bills. Hopefully the chickens will come home to roost in the next election.

What's the tax revenue per hectare on the peninsula vs. in the suburbs? That probably starts to explain the gap in services.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

I'm not so sure many would consider BRT to be a 'major improvement'. Perhaps those who already use the bus system would think this way but I'm skeptical that BRT will convince other residents to give up their cars and switch to public transit. And as far as BRT being a 'partway step' towards LRT, I'm assuming you mean the creation of BRT corridores that could at some future time be switched to LRT? Given the grade requirements of LRT vs. a bus I'm doubtful this could ever be accomplished given the hilly nature of our cty and the proposed BRT routes.

I think getting buses out of mixed traffic and allowing them to zoom through the city uninterrupted would unequivocally be a major improvement. And I’m pretty sure the planning for the BRT system has already taken into account the possibility of a tail upgrade one day.

Realistically, we can talk about how much better rail would be all we want, but it’s a challenge just getting the BRT funding secured. Let’s work with what’s possible.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by OliverD

What's the tax revenue per hectare on the peninsula vs. in the suburbs? That probably starts to explain the gap in services.

Yes it's quite consistent that denser urban areas generate more tax revenue relative to the spending required to support them and therefore subsidize their low density surroundings. But I'm sure suburban areas still "feel" deprived since very costly things such as requiring far more road surface per resident are kind of invisible to people while lower cost things like cycle infrastructure are conspicuous due to being different.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Oh great. Now this thread has morphed into yet another suburban vs urban debate.

I wish people would just get used to the idea that both exist and will continue to exist. This is Canada. We have choices. It's good.

Back to the Skye... I recall the discussion of the lighting effects in the rendering being unrealistic the first time they were posted on this forum - but renderings are just like fancy sales brochures intending to sell somebody on the product. They show views that don't exist in reality, and imaginary lighting effects to create mood/settings that show how nice it could look in some ideal world. They also don't necessarily accurately depict finishing materials, and thus really should be taken with a grain of salt.