Ottawa Macdonald-Cartier International Airport (YOW/CYOW) 1.0

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Zmonkey

Landing fees are rarely given at posted rates if an airline gives an airport volume.
For example, wanna know what Air Canada and West Jet pay in Landing fee's in Pearson? $0.
They have a annual fee they pay and with that they have unlimited landing, gate access, ramps, over night parking and certain space in airports for check in and lounges etc. For Air Canada it represented something like a 70% discount off of posted rates (pre pandemic).
Lynx is in Terminal 1 in Toronto, how did a ULCC get into T1 in Toronto while Flair is in T3? They Let the GTAA pick its landing spots for a year.

Sure Air France or Emirites will pay full landing fees in Toronto, but Air Canada, West Jet even Transat, Flair won't. If Porter will use Pearson as a HUB they won't either.

Everyone will offer Porter an airline to set up a Hub, Montreal and Toronto will likely be offer a stronger discount since they are bigger airports and the incremental usage won't be a huge change for them. I also belive Porter has already paid Pearson for certain slots (in prime time).

Thanks, appreciate the explanation.

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by Zmonkey

Landing fees are rarely given at posted rates if an airline gives an airport volume.
For example, wanna know what Air Canada and West Jet pay in Landing fee's in Pearson? $0.
They have a annual fee they pay and with that they have unlimited landing, gate access, ramps, over night parking and certain space in airports for check in and lounges etc. For Air Canada it represented something like a 70% discount off of posted rates (pre pandemic).
Lynx is in Terminal 1 in Toronto, how did a ULCC get into T1 in Toronto while Flair is in T3? They Let the GTAA pick its landing spots for a year.

Sure Air France or Emirites will pay full landing fees in Toronto, but Air Canada, West Jet even Transat, Flair won't. If Porter will use Pearson as a HUB they won't either.

Everyone will offer Porter an airline to set up a Hub, Montreal and Toronto will likely be offer a stronger discount since they are bigger airports and the incremental usage won't be a huge change for them. I also belive Porter has already paid Pearson for certain slots (in prime time).

Amazing explanation. Let's hope YOW is just as competitive with that as the YYZ and YUL. The more options, the more traffic, the higher our numbers, the more route start ups in the future.

In addition... The CEO of Poter finally mentioned something about Westjet's decline in the East: “(WestJet’s Western Canada strategy) will enhance our plans and will help strengthen the core of our Eastern Canadian expansion, but it was not the instrumental piece in us deciding to trigger phase two of our growth plans,". The article can be found here: https://www.thestar.com/business/2022/07...orders-20-more-embraer-e195-e2-jets.html

[Stacmon]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

Amazing explanation. Let's hope YOW is just as competitive with that as the YYZ and YUL. The more options, the more traffic, the higher our numbers, the more route start ups in the future.

In addition... The CEO of Poter finally mentioned something about Westjet's decline in the East: “(WestJet’s Western Canada strategy) will enhance our plans and will help strengthen the core of our Eastern Canadian expansion, but it was not the instrumental piece in us deciding to trigger phase two of our growth plans,". The article can be found here: https://www.thestar.com/business/2022/07...orders-20-more-embraer-e195-e2-jets.html

Very interesting! I hadn't heard elsewhere yet about Westjet's reorientation to focus on Western Canada and I can absolutely see how that may embolden Porter to build up its network in Atlantic, Eastern and Central Canada. It gives me even more hope than before that they will be able to use YOW as a hub for Atlantic flights going elsewhere like the Southwest U.S.!

The wait for route announcements is killing me!

[Dominion301]

Today’s departure count: 58

Today’s cancellation count: 0

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by Stacmon

Very interesting! I hadn't heard elsewhere yet about Westjet's reorientation to focus on Western Canada and I can absolutely see how that may embolden Porter to build up its network in Atlantic, Eastern and Central Canada. It gives me even more hope than before that they will be able to use YOW as a hub for Atlantic flights going elsewhere like the Southwest U.S.!

The wait for route announcements is killing me!

More importantly, I wonder what Air Canada is going to do about it. Surely they must know their customer base here is going to drop when people finally have access to direct flights instead of being shuttled like cattle to YYZ. I'm going to laugh so hard if their response to this is increase the flights to Toronto to give us a sense of "importance".

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

No doubt that Paris option would have been from AC. However, now that I know the MAX range can service YOW-LHR, they have no excuse for continuing to ground it. Unless the grounding is because of staff shortages plaguing the industry today. I can't wait for the day a major European airline begins servicing YOW to give AC a run for their money as they continue to cater to YYZ and YUL. Good luck to them continuing to do so with decreased YOW connecting traffic.

Yield has to be worthwhile to support such a service. Especially since a TATL flight gets them just two rotations out of the same aircraft. And with the public service still being substantially restricted on travel, it's kinda hard to make a case on using an aircraft and a valuable slot in London or Paris for a flight to Ottawa.

Best case scenario for Ottawa is service from less slot restricted airports. Like say Aer Lingus from Dublin.

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Yield has to be worthwhile to support such a service. Especially since a TATL flight gets them just two rotations out of the same aircraft. And with the public service still being substantially restricted on travel, it's kinda hard to make a case on using an aircraft and a valuable slot in London or Paris for a flight to Ottawa.

Best case scenario for Ottawa is service from less slot restricted airports. Like say Aer Lingus from Dublin.

Very true. But they do it for YHZ, maybe because it's too inconvenient for them to backtrack to YUL? Still though, it's kind of annoying. YOW always get's looked over. And to quote one of my friends "it's ridiculous, we can't go anywhere without stopping somewhere, let's hope Porter changes that".

[YOWflier]

I find it very very hard to believe YOW-LHR would be lower yielding than the current 2nd YUL-LHR or even the current daily YVR-YOW turn on a B789.

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by FlyYOW

I find it very very hard to believe YOW-LHR would be lower yielding than the current 2nd YUL-LHR or even the current daily YVR-YOW turn on a B789.

Honestly. I heard even in the middle of the pandemic, the flights from LHR to YYZ were so jam packed and so many of those travellers had to connect back to YOW. I can't back up that claim, I just heard it from someone who used LHR-YYZ-YOW route.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by FlyYOW

I find it very very hard to believe YOW-LHR would be lower yielding than the current 2nd YUL-LHR or even the current daily YVR-YOW turn on a B789.

Montreal metro is 3x the size of Ottawa. And the network in Montreal let's them fill that flight for whatever is left.

As for YOW-YVR, I'm going to guess that is an effort to increase utility out of a YVR based 789.

Ultimately, these are businesses. They know which routes yield returns and allocate their aircraft accordingly.

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Montreal metro is 3x the size of Ottawa. And the network in Montreal let's them fill that flight for whatever is left.

As for YOW-YVR, I'm going to guess that is an effort to increase utility out of a YVR based 789.

Ultimately, these are businesses. They know which routes yield returns and allocate their aircraft accordingly.

Yes but at the same time you can't deny the fact that so many people drive to YUL to catch a flight, whereas if we have those flights here, people would stop doing that which would increase our numbers, the same numbers that are showing AC we are a low yield. All these people are giving YUL those numbers and ultimately now multi-day transatlantic departures are being serviced there. They are a business you are right. So they must know this is the reality and the fact that they haven't done anything about it is not surprising. Less aircraft, less resources, less everything for them if people here continue to drive there instead of them basing an aircraft here to service those routes. Can't blame them though, if I ran a complex business like an airline, I would also want to milk the idea of "YOW has low yield because that's what the numbers say, and completely ignore other factors" for as long as I can. I see a lot of travellers at my place of work and I ask them which airport are they flying from, you wouldn't believe how many say Montreal. Like probably more than half. That's anecdotal though. The only way to really find out the actual numbers is to data collect. Pretty much asking every single person going through YUL's doors how many are based in Ottawa. But I don't have to tell you why that will never happen.

They did discuss this in front of AC already. Here's that article: https://www.obj.ca/article/lack-direct-a...wa-economic-growth-aviation-summit-hears

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Yield has to be worthwhile to support such a service. Especially since a TATL flight gets them just two rotations out of the same aircraft. And with the public service still being substantially restricted on travel, it's kinda hard to make a case on using an aircraft and a valuable slot in London or Paris for a flight to Ottawa.

Best case scenario for Ottawa is service from less slot restricted airports. Like say Aer Lingus from Dublin.

The public service is slowly starting to travel transatlantic again. My friend and a few of her colleagues just got back from a conference in London. On the return they used the LHR-YHZ flight. She said half the people on the plane we’re headed to YOW. A friend of mine just got back from Greece and on the way there spent 3 days sleeping in airports thanks to the gong show that is YUL. Again I have no sympathy for AC for their self-inflected wounds.

To add even more depressing news YEG has just landed Condor. Now we know how YWG has felt for most of the past 25 years.

Today’s departure count: 60

Today’s cancellation count: 6

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

The public service is slowly starting to travel transatlantic again. My friend and a few of her colleagues just got back from a conference in London. On the return they used the LHR-YHZ flight. She said half the people on the plane we’re headed to YOW. A friend of mine just got back from Greece and on the way there spent 3 days sleeping in airports thanks to the gong show that is YUL. Again I have no sympathy for AC for their self-inflected wounds.

To add even more depressing news YEG has just landed Condor. Now we know how YWG has felt for most of the past 25 years.

Today’s departure count: 60

Today’s cancellation count: 6

That really is depressing. I can't wait for LH to begin in YOW. Air Canada get's no sympathy from myself either. I have said this multiple times and I will say it again, with Porter's expansion (given that they do have a decent amount of routes from YOW and a codeshare with a major US carrier), and an addition of a European airline servicing YOW, it will be goodbye AC for me and their more than a dozen daily flights to YYZ. Like how many more scheduled flights to YYZ does AC need before they wake up and realize YOW is an important travel market, deserving of some bare basic routes for a city of 1.5 million people?

[YOWhopeful]

To add to the anecdote, I work in a clinic with about ten doctors. They are all taling some holiday to Europe with their families and absolutely none is flyo g out of Ottawa. They are all driving to YUL some even to YYZ for the sole reason they have kids and want to avoid the drama of connections or rather missed connections. Money is not the factor.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

Yes but at the same time you can't deny the fact that so many people drive to YUL to catch a flight, whereas if we have those flights here, people would stop doing that which would increase our numbers, the same numbers that are showing AC we are a low yield. All these people are giving YUL those numbers and ultimately now multi-day transatlantic departures are being serviced there. They are a business you are right. So they must know this is the reality and the fact that they haven't done anything about it is not surprising. Less aircraft, less resources, less everything for them if people here continue to drive there instead of them basing an aircraft here to service those routes. Can't blame them though, if I ran a complex business like an airline, I would also want to milk the idea of "YOW has low yield because that's what the numbers say, and completely ignore other factors" for as long as I can. I see a lot of travellers at my place of work and I ask them which airport are they flying from, you wouldn't believe how many say Montreal. Like probably more than half. That's anecdotal though. The only way to really find out the actual numbers is to data collect. Pretty much asking every single person going through YUL's doors how many are based in Ottawa. But I don't have to tell you why that will never happen.

They did discuss this in front of AC already. Here's that article: https://www.obj.ca/article/lack-direct-a...wa-economic-growth-aviation-summit-hears

You can say it's a conspiracy all you want. But there's a wide world of airlines out there. Not just AC. Nobody is prioritizing YOW for long haul. And even with shorthaul, Porter might end up with a bigger hub at Pearson than at YOW.

And yes, they know that people drive from YOW to YUL. They don't just know that. They often include Ottawa-Gatineau in YUL's catchment. They know based on payment addresses where their customers are from. And they've decided the yield isn't there. It's not personal. It's business.

I've said before I hope the XLR changes some of this calculation for long haul. But even then when a prime slot at Heathrow (morning arrival hours for example) is worth $10M, it's a tough sell for an airline to use that flying an XLR to Ottawa, when they can send a 77W a whole bunch of other places and get a better return. This is why I hope we get Aer Lingus from Dublin. Widebody services from Eurolegacies is looking increasingly unlikely to YOW. Air Canada to Heathrow is probably the only widebody service Ottawa will ever get.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

That really is depressing. I can't wait for LH to begin in YOW. Air Canada get's no sympathy from myself either. I have said this multiple times and I will say it again, with Porter's expansion (given that they do have a decent amount of routes from YOW and a codeshare with a major US carrier), and an addition of a European airline servicing YOW, it will be goodbye AC for me and their more than a dozen daily flights to YYZ. Like how many more scheduled flights to YYZ does AC need before they wake up and realize YOW is an important travel market, deserving of some bare basic routes for a city of 1.5 million people?

First off, Air Canada and Lufthansa have a metal neutral Joint Venture. They split the profit whether you fly LH or AC. So it's not just AC choosing to ignore Ottawa....

Next, 1.5M really isn't that much. Look at all the cities in the US or in Europe with the same or larger metro populations and not much air service. How much international longhaul service does Sacramento or Kansas City get? Bordeaux, Lille, Nuremberg and Seville are about the same size in population or even larger. You won't see much longhaul service. Hub and spoke models mean most of us will always be spokes. Best we can do is try and be a spoke for a more preferable carrier.

[YOWflier]

The yield debate is old hat. Let’s not forget where we were 2.5 years ago and that demand hasn’t vanished. Sure, Federal travel cratered during COVID but it’s rebounding quickly now.. The focus all over the globe is on rebuilding hubs. We are not one. Routes will be restored in due course but until then it will be painful.

Side note about Porter: the quickest way to their slaughter will be to try to entrench at YYZ and to a lesser extent YUL. All this talk about businesses knowing what they’re doing is legit but lets not pretend they’re not run by humans who are often stupid …this would be an example of how to commit airline suicide.

[Truenorth00]

Personally, I'd like to Porter to build a hub at YOW and promise to feed some international carriers that set up here. I recognize this is a challenge though. Most international carriers are going to want to serve YYZ and YUL first. So they are stuck for partners.

The other issue is that even a lot of international carriers increasingly prefer a city where they can go double daily with a smaller aircraft. Multiple frequencies mean more options for business travelers and more network connections. The only European carriers that I think might have a shot at pulling this off is Aer Lingus from Dublin. Maybe SAS or AF if they ever order the XLR.

[harls]

Just curious if anyone with YOW in their name has a connection to the airline industry...

[YOWflier]

I work in Civil Aviation. Not directly connected to airlines but very closely related.

I also recently realized that my username here is the same as YOW airport authority’s Twitter handle. I should probably request a change as I don’t want to mislead about any connection (there isn’t).