Regional and Intercity Bus\Rail Transportation

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Something just occurred to me:
With LRT slated to open Winter 2019, will the Queensway still be as congested during rush hour?

That, of course, is the million dollar question. There are two reasons that could happen:

1. There could be a modal shift and people who are driving now could switch to transit.
2. Fewer buses on the road (and the removal of bus lanes) will make more room for cars.

For the first, there is some disagreement on here about it but IMHO it will be a gradual transition and we won’t see a sudden change. Only time will tell for sure.

For the second, it will really only be a benefit in the east where temporary bus lanes were created on the 417 and Nicholas, which will be available to all vehicles once the confederation line is open. Of course induced demand will foil it up pretty quickly

[Dengler Avenue]

As for the complaint that Ottawa taxpayers are subsidizing the rural residents for road use, lol, you can all blame Mike Harris for having downloaded Highway 17 through Orléans and P&R.

It’ll be nice (but very unlikely) if the province uploads even parts of Old Highway 17 (up to Rockland) back to the provincial system.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

As for the complaint that Ottawa taxpayers are subsidizing the rural residents for road use, lol, you can all blame Mike Harris for having downloaded Highway 17 through Orléans and P&R.

It’ll be nice (but very unlikely) if the province uploads even parts of Old Highway 17 (up to Rockland) back to the provincial system.

I assume you mean Ottawa Road 174 (commonly referred to as Highway 174); it only becomes ON-17 east of Ottawa. I totally agree though. I gather part of the reason why the province agreed to split the cost of the Confederation Line extension to Trim Rd is as an apology for offloading the Highway on the city. Personally, I think they should name the station "The Clarence-Rockland connection station," as that is what its primary purpose is.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I assume you mean Ottawa Road 174 (commonly referred to as Highway 174); it only becomes ON-17 east of Ottawa. I totally agree though. I gather part of the reason why the province agreed to split the cost of the Confederation Line extension to Trim Rd is as an apology for offloading the Highway on the city. Personally, I think they should name the station "The Clarence-Rockland connection station," as that is what its primary purpose is.

That is indeed what it is. And it's why CRT should be encouraged to transfer there at the same fares the rest of us will pay.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

That is indeed what it is. And it's why CRT should be encouraged to transfer there at the same fares the rest of us will pay.

I’m surprised you have that view considering the fairs the rest of us pay are subsidized by Ottawa taxpayers. IMHO, we shouldn’t be encouraging them to transfer there but instead encourage the rural partners to continue downtown.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I’m surprised you have that view considering the fairs the rest of us pay are subsidized by Ottawa taxpayers. IMHO, we shouldn’t be encouraging them to transfer there but instead encourage the rural partners to continue downtown.

There's a difference between Ottawa taxpayers subsidizing their own ridership and subsidizing the ridership of out-of-towners. It's incredible how some of you pretend these are completely different people.

I am okay with my property taxes subsidizing my own usage of city services or that of my neighbours, who also pay property taxes. I take exception to subsidizing those who don't live or pay taxes here and see the city as nothing more than an ATM, from which they can collect their paycheques.

Rural partners can debark their passengers wherever they want. They can have the choice, between a faster ride with the transfer at suburban terminus stations, or one-seat rides to the core. The latter scenario can support a discounted transfer because transfer there would be counter-peak. The former should definitely not be discounted, because they are adversely impacting the usage of an actual taxpaying resident. I've been pretty clear on this for several posts now.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

There's a difference between Ottawa taxpayers subsidizing their own ridership and subsidizing the ridership of out-of-towners. It's incredible how some of you pretend these are completely different people.

I am okay with my property taxes subsidizing my own usage of city services or that of my neighbours, who also pay property taxes. I take exception to subsidizing those who don't live or pay taxes here and see the city as nothing more than an ATM, from which they can collect their paycheques.

But if we charge them the same rate as residents we are still subsidizing them with our taxes. That’s why I’m against extending the confederation line to Tenth Line. Sure the construction costs are paid for but Ottawa taxpayers are on the hook for operation costs and the majority of users will be from Rockland.

Rural partners can debark their passengers wherever they want. They can have the choice, between a faster ride with the transfer at suburban terminus stations, or one-seat rides to the core. The latter scenario can support a discounted transfer because transfer there would be counter-peak. The former should definitely not be discounted, because they are adversely impacting the usage of an actual taxpaying resident. I've been pretty clear on this for several posts now.

Only if we let them transfer at the Rockland TransferTenth Line Station from the bus. We could do like the TTC and only permit transfers downtown stations.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

But if we charge them the same rate as residents we are still subsidizing them with our taxes.

It's a whole lot better than giving them discounted transfers and discounted passes which some here are advocating for.

Originally Posted by roger1818

That’s why I’m against extending the confederation line to Tenth Line. Sure the construction costs are paid for but Ottawa taxpayers are on the hook for operation costs and the majority of users will be from Rockland.

I'm not a fan of that extension, but the operation costs of that extension are marginal at best. And there's still likely to be enough Orleans riders to pay those marginal costs.

But since we're building that station, the City of Ottawa should tell CRT to stop cluttering our roads with their buses and transfer there. At the same fare as everyone else who will be using the system.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Only if we let them transfer at the Rockland TransferTenth Line Station from the bus. We could do like the TTC and only permit transfers downtown stations.

The TTC does permit transfers elsewhere. But their rationale for discounted GO transfers when they eventually did it was that these transfers mostly don't impact TTC riders who largely exiting at Union in the morning and entering in the afternoon.

Personally, I'd like to see OC Transpo enforce a monopoly on transit inside the city, the way the TTC does in Toronto and force transfer at the border. But if that's politically unpalatable, any discounts should only be offered for downtown transfer where the likelihood of those transfers impacting any OC Transpo rider are minimal.

[corynv]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Personally, I'd like to see OC Transpo enforce a monopoly on transit inside the city, the way the TTC does in Toronto and force transfer at the border. But if that's politically unpalatable, any discounts should only be offered for downtown transfer where the likelihood of those transfers impacting any OC Transpo rider are minimal.

What about the STO though? would they be exempt from the monopoly inside the city, or would people in gatineau need to start paying for both STO and OCTranspo monthly passes?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by corynv

What about the STO though? would they be exempt from the monopoly inside the city, or would people in gatineau need to start paying for both STO and OCTranspo monthly passes?

STO should be the only exception.... And that's because it's a genuine two way flow and reduces the need for OC Transpo to serve Gatineau. STO riders are also not flowing in the peak direction for the most part so they aren't taking seats from Ottawa suburbanites.

And hopefully, when their LRT comes online eventually, even those bus flows can be eliminated entirely.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's a whole lot better than giving them discounted transfers and discounted passes which some here are advocating for.

It depends how it is implemented. A discounted transfer at the most suburban station that most riders use is not a good idea, I agree.

I'm not a fan of that extension, but the operation costs of that extension are marginal at best. And there's still likely to be enough Orleans riders to pay those marginal costs.

I'm not convinced that the costs will be marginal nor am I convinced that many Orleans riders will use that leg.

But since we're building that station, the City of Ottawa should tell CRT to stop cluttering our roads with their buses and transfer there. At the same fare as everyone else who will be using the system.

The buses from all of the rural partners combined would be noise compared to the buses STO will be running through downtown Ottawa, and not worth worrying about IMHO. It isn't as if we will be getting GO bus levels of service.

The TTC does permit transfers elsewhere. But their rationale for discounted GO transfers when they eventually did it was that these transfers mostly don't impact TTC riders who largely exiting at Union in the morning and entering in the afternoon.

We could do the same here with a similar effect.

Personally, I'd like to see OC Transpo enforce a monopoly on transit inside the city, the way the TTC does in Toronto and force transfer at the border. But if that's politically unpalatable, any discounts should only be offered for downtown transfer where the likelihood of those transfers impacting any OC Transpo rider are minimal.

GO has operated buses into Toronto for decades, so it is hardly a monopoly. It isn't as if the rural partners are competing with OC Transpo for providing local service within the city.

[lrt's friend]

GO provides a wide variety of services into downtown Toronto. Why would we complain about rural partners doing the same in Ottawa? Transfers put rural partners business into serious jeopardy. We should be encouraging more people to use transit not less.

Yes, the Trim extension and airport branch line both have questionable value if we really look at cost and benefit. They are only being built because they are costing the city itself nothing. They are vanity projects, nothing more. If we were investing properly, that money should have gone to double tracking the Trillium Line from Bayview to South Keys, but the politicians wanted to spend money on completely new rail.

The initial LRT proposal from STO is something we should indeed worry about, since they are planning to dump their passengers where our Confederation Line trains will be the busiest.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

GO provides a wide variety of services into downtown Toronto. Why would we complain about rural partners doing the same in Ottawa? Transfers put rural partners business into serious jeopardy. We should be encouraging more people to use transit not less.

Yes, the Trim extension and airport branch line both have questionable value if we really look at cost and benefit. They are only being built because they are costing the city itself nothing. They are vanity projects, nothing more. If we were investing properly, that money should have gone to double tracking the Trillium Line from Bayview to South Keys, but the politicians wanted to spend money on completely new rail.

The initial LRT proposal from STO is something we should indeed worry about, since they are planning to dump their passengers where our Confederation Line trains will be the busiest.

I doubt it, the plateau line is the one that will end at Bayview and that's not the main problem for the STO. The Alymer line which will be very busy since it will have more people will be ending at Rideau and the people tranferring from there will be counter-peak as Truenorth stated so enough Ottawa passengers will be off by the time Gatineau passenger board.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I'm not convinced that the costs will be marginal nor am I convinced that many Orleans riders will use that leg.

Why would the costs not be marginal? It's not like these stations have attendants. We're talking about utilities and basic maintenance of a station. Also, much cheaper to build a park and ride lot there (and better for land utilization) than at Place. The operating costs of this station would be on par with say Tunney's.

As for Orleans riders not using it....if you live anywhere near Trim Rd, your bus will probably be feeding into Trim.

Originally Posted by roger1818

The buses from all of the rural partners combined would be noise compared to the buses STO will be running through downtown Ottawa, and not worth worrying about IMHO. It isn't as if we will be getting GO bus levels of service.

Never said they are similar in volume. However, if those communities grow, as some here want them to, the bus traffic will grow as well. I think it serves all of us well if they can terminate at the suburban stations and establish more regular frequencies in their communities.

Originally Posted by roger1818

We could do the same here with a similar effect.

Only if the transfer are in the core. But again, if that traffic grows it's not going to desirable to have them in the core.

This is not just about CRT. Imagine all those rural partners start sending several buses an hour to the core. That adds to the clutter. Especially since we don't have a downtown bus terminal (like GO does in Toronto) and they are debarking on the street.

Originally Posted by roger1818

GO has operated buses into Toronto for decades, so it is hardly a monopoly. It isn't as if the rural partners are competing with OC Transpo for providing local service within the city.

Toronto actually has municipal bylaws that prohibit services competing with the TTC. There are specific exemptions. Like GO. This is what I was referring to.

And the goal here isn't to stop competition against OC Transpo. It's to stop cluttering of all kinds of buses and jitneys in the core.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

GO provides a wide variety of services into downtown Toronto. Why would we complain about rural partners doing the same in Ottawa? Transfers put rural partners business into serious jeopardy. We should be encouraging more people to use transit not less.

GO also charges quite a bit more to get to downtown Toronto than what these rural partners do. That, in effect, represents some sort of a check on transit-based sprawl.

Here, we're talking about services that don't charge as much and then give riders discounted transfers onto OC Transpo.

Again, can you explain why a rider who lives in and pays taxes to Ottawa should pay a higher fare than a CRT user who does not?

I'm quite satisfied that OC Transpo has seen fit to terminate their arrangement and insist they pay full freight going forward. Incidentally, forcing them to transfer at the suburban stations also means much shorter route lengths for them which would allow them to boost frequencies and shorten headways. That would boost transit usage. Let's see how many of them take that up.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The initial LRT proposal from STO is something we should indeed worry about, since they are planning to dump their passengers where our Confederation Line trains will be the busiest.

There will also be a lot of suburban riders exiting the Confederation Line at Rideau and Bayview, freeing up space for those transfers.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Why would the costs not be marginal? It's not like these stations have attendants. We're talking about utilities and basic maintenance of a station. Also, much cheaper to build a park and ride lot there (and better for land utilization) than at Place. The operating costs of this station would be on par with say Tunney's.

You are forgetting the cost of driving the trains. Labour costs are per hour and maintenance costs are per km. The electricity to power them isn't free either. The trains have a capacity of 600, yet I doubt if they will have more people on them (between Place d'Orleans and Trim Rd) than could fit in a 40' bus. While it is true that labour costs may be the same, maintenance and energy costs will be higher.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

As for Orleans riders not using it....if you live anywhere near Trim Rd, your bus will probably be feeding into Trim.

But how many do? The vast majority of Orleans is west of Trim Rd. and the way the roads are aligned, it would be a significant detour for many.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Never said they are similar in volume. However, if those communities grow, as some here want them to, the bus traffic will grow as well. I think it serves all of us well if they can terminate at the suburban stations and establish more regular frequencies in their communities.

How does subsidizing their commute with our taxes serve us well? Better to have them pay for their own commute to downtown.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Only if the transfer are in the core. But again, if that traffic grows it's not going to desirable to have them in the core.

Toronto has more GO buses than than Ottawa will have Rural partner buses anytime in the next century. Is congestion caused by GO buses a major problem in Toronto?

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is not just about CRT. Imagine all those rural partners start sending several buses an hour to the core. That adds to the clutter. Especially since we don't have a downtown bus terminal (like GO does in Toronto) and they are debarking on the street.

I just don't see this as a big problem we will need to fix anytime soon. When it is, we can think about commuter rail.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Toronto actually has municipal bylaws that prohibit services competing with the TTC. There are specific exemptions. Like GO. This is what I was referring to.

Are these regional partner buses competing with OC Transpo in any way?

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And the goal here isn't to stop competition against OC Transpo. It's to stop cluttering of all kinds of buses and jitneys in the core.

Do you really see all kinds of buses and jitneys in the core? Is this a huge problem in your mind? Even if it is, I would rather that then replacing those buses and jitneys with an order of magnitude more cars than buses and jitneys.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

GO also charges quite a bit more to get to downtown Toronto than what these rural partners do. That, in effect, represents some sort of a check on transit-based sprawl.

I am sorry, but that isn't true. For example, GO's Fair Calculator to travel from "Wellington St. E. @ Hwy. 404 Park & Ride, Aurora" to "Union Station GO, Toronto" (a distance of 46.8 km) costs $9.30 each way (not including Presto discount). A "Daily one way pass" on CRT costs $15. True a CRT monthly pass is cheaper, but GO doesn't offer them, so its difficult to make an apples to apples comparison.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

I doubt it, the plateau line is the one that will end at Bayview and that's not the main problem for the STO. The Alymer line which will be very busy since it will have more people will be ending at Rideau and the people tranferring from there will be counter-peak as Truenorth stated so enough Ottawa passengers will be off by the time Gatineau passenger board.

We all seem to want to pump short distance riders onto the Confederation Line. At some point, we will be scrambling for extra capacity. Those short distance riders are the first ones we need to find an alternate way for them to get to their destination. Otherwise, we will need buy additional trains to run all the way from Kanata to Trim Road in order to address the busiest section between Bayview to Hurdman. We seem to be in denial that at some point this will become a choke point for us again, just as Albert and Slater are today. We think we have infinite capacity but we do not.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

You are forgetting the cost of driving the trains. Labour costs are per hour and maintenance costs are per km. The electricity to power them isn't free either. The trains have a capacity of 600, yet I doubt if they will have more people on them (between Place d'Orleans and Trim Rd) than could fit in a 40' bus. While it is true that labour costs may be the same, maintenance and energy costs will be higher.

Again. These costs are marginal. Labour cost to drive a train an extra few kms is hardly substantial. Ditto maintenance for an extra few km of track and catenary. This is exactly what "marginal" means. Heck, heating and lighting the station itself will probably cost more than track maintenance and power consumption for the trains for those few km beyond Place.

Originally Posted by roger1818

But how many do? The vast majority of Orleans is west of Trim Rd. and the way the roads are aligned, it would be a significant detour for many.

Even if Trim got a few hundred per hour from Orleans (and feeder buses will probably achieve that), the extension is justifiable if it keeps traffic away from Place. Trim is, after all, a much better location for park n ride.

Originally Posted by roger1818

How does subsidizing their commute with our taxes serve us well? Better to have them pay for their own commute to downtown.

No issues with that if we had a proper bus station in the core. We don't. Those buses inevitably take up street space. That said, I am okay with them going to the core.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Toronto has more GO buses than than Ottawa will have Rural partner buses anytime in the next century. Is congestion caused by GO buses a major problem in Toronto?

Toronto's downtown is also a whole lot bigger than Ottawa. And GO has a bus terminal beside the Union. GO buses aren't just stopping in streets to drop riders off (not in the downtown core anyway).

Originally Posted by roger1818

I just don't see this as a big problem we will need to fix anytime soon. When it is, we can think about commuter rail.

Before commuter rail, the far easier solution is to push them to the suburban terminii.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Are these regional partner buses competing with OC Transpo in any way?

And York Region Transit isn't really competing with the TTC either. These rules exist to prevent a mess of different services putting a plethora of buses on their streets. Incidentally, because our downtown is so small and we have smaller roads, the problem is actually worse in Ottawa than Toronto.

Originally Posted by roger1818

I am sorry, but that isn't true. For example, GO's Fair Calculator to travel from "Wellington St. E. @ Hwy. 404 Park & Ride, Aurora" to "Union Station GO, Toronto" (a distance of 46.8 km) costs $9.30 each way (not including Presto discount). A "Daily one way pass" on CRT costs $15. True a CRT monthly pass is cheaper, but GO doesn't offer them, so its difficult to make an apples to apples comparison.

I guess you haven't heard of their Presto discounts:

https://www.gotransit.com/en/trip-planning/presto/save-with-presto

That's a de facto monthly pass. The commuter in your example would spend $268 per month traveling from Aurora to Union. CRT monthly pass is $25 cheaper. This is a good example of sprawl being discounted in Ottawa.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We all seem to want to pump short distance riders onto the Confederation Line. At some point, we will be scrambling for extra capacity. Those short distance riders are the first ones we need to find an alternate way for them to get to their destination. Otherwise, we will need buy additional trains to run all the way from Kanata to Trim Road in order to address the busiest section between Bayview to Hurdman. We seem to be in denial that at some point this will become a choke point for us again, just as Albert and Slater are today. We think we have infinite capacity but we do not.

First, higher frequencies throughout are not a bad thing.

Next, you don't have to boost frequencies across the line to increase capacity on a portion of it. That's what short-turning is for. They could easily short-turn trains at Hurdman and Bayview to provide extra capacity on this portion.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Again. These costs are marginal. Labour cost to drive a train an extra few kms is hardly substantial. Ditto maintenance for an extra few km of track and catenary. This is exactly what "marginal" means. Heck, heating and lighting the station itself will probably cost more than track maintenance and power consumption for the trains for those few km beyond Place.

Neither of us have quoted maintenance and labour costs so it is one person's opionion vs. another. I will say that in Vancouver, Translink has argued against extending Skytrain to Langley, not because of construction costs, but because of vehicle maintenance costs.

Even if Trim got a few hundred per hour from Orleans (and feeder buses will probably achieve that), the extension is justifiable if it keeps traffic away from Place. Trim is, after all, a much better location for park n ride.

Buses could easily be extended to Place d'Orlenas. They could still use the existing park and ride at Trim and have a shuttle bus. Alternately, they could build a parking garage at Place to save on sprawling parking.

No issues with that if we had a proper bus station in the core. We don't. Those buses inevitably take up street space. That said, I am okay with them going to the core.

Toronto's downtown is also a whole lot bigger than Ottawa. And GO has a bus terminal beside the Union. GO buses aren't just stopping in streets to drop riders off (not in the downtown core anyway).

That is fair, though if demand got high enough, GO would probably take over the commuter service and build a bus station. Not likely high enough to warrant that now though.

Before commuter rail, the far easier solution is to push them to the suburban terminii.

Or build an urban commuter bus terminal.

And York Region Transit isn't really competing with the TTC either. These rules exist to prevent a mess of different services putting a plethora of buses on their streets. Incidentally, because our downtown is so small and we have smaller roads, the problem is actually worse in Ottawa than Toronto.

I just don't see how this is a valid comparison.

I guess you haven't heard of their Presto discounts:

https://www.gotransit.com/en/trip-planning/presto/save-with-presto

That's a de facto monthly pass. The commuter in your example would spend $268 per month traveling from Aurora to Union. CRT monthly pass is $25 cheaper. This is a good example of sprawl being discounted in Ottawa.

Yes I have, though it is better compared to CRT's "Booklet of daily tickets."