Kanata LRT EA - Bayshore to Palladium

[Horus]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The problem is that the team built a fan base from 1997 to 2007 when the team was consistently good. Since then, even though we have been in the playoffs with some exciting series, there just seems to be a lack of consistency that we are building to something better.

The challenge of the market with the family traditions of Habs and Leaf fans would be reduced if the team could field a team with real expectations as a contender. Despite last year's surprise, this team has not been a contender since 2007. We need to build real excitement and real expectation which would slowly get the Habs and Leaf local fan bases to start to dwindle or dwindle more quickly. I fear a Leaf run will actually weaken the Sens fan base.

The Sens had a chance to try to capture some of the latent Leaf fan base in the area during the 2004-2010 period when the Leafs were putting out some dreadful teams and the Sens were very competitive. In my observation, the team and the Ottawa fan base did nothing to try to sway any disgruntled Leaf fans over. In my observation, (disclosure - I am a Leaf fan now living in the Ottawa area) the overwhelming quality of a Sens fan is an undying (and sometimes irrational) hatred of the Leafs. It even seems that hatred of the Leafs supersedes their affection for the Senators. It's no surprise that they have been largely unsuccessful in converting long-time Leaf fans into Senators fans.

This is how I perceive their message:
"Hey Leaf fan - your team really sucks, I mean they are REALLY bad. You should cheer for the Senators since your team sucks so much"

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by Horus

The Sens had a chance to try to capture some of the latent Leaf fan base in the area during the 2004-2010 period when the Leafs were putting out some dreadful teams and the Sens were very competitive. In my observation, the team and the Ottawa fan base did nothing to try to sway any disgruntled Leaf fans over. In my observation, (disclosure - I am a Leaf fan now living in the Ottawa area) the overwhelming quality of a Sens fan is an undying (and sometimes irrational) hatred of the Leafs. It even seems that hatred of the Leafs supersedes their affection for the Senators. It's no surprise that they have been largely unsuccessful in converting long-time Leaf fans into Senators fans.

This is how I perceive their message:
"Hey Leaf fan - your team really sucks, I mean they are REALLY bad. You should cheer for the Senators since your team sucks so much"

Well let me ask you, if a Sens fan had presented a really good argument as to why you should convert away from the blue team, would you have actually seriously considered doing so? Also, are you from the NCR originally or from somewhere else?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by phil235

Those suggesting Quebec as a likely destination would need to explain how Quebec is a better market, given that it has a bit more than half of Ottawa's population, a smaller TV market, lower average incomes and a similar government-centric economy. My guess is that a move to Quebec would lop 40% off the value of the franchise in one shot.

We’ve seen how hard it is to get an NHL team to move up north. Jim Basilli fought the NHL for what felt like years to have one in Hamilton and now we have Québec City begging for one. With the NHL keeping them on the “hook” while bumping them further down the line while potential markets surface in the US (Vegas, Seattle, Houston). I have no clue how Winnipeg was able to secure a franchise.

So why would the Sens move to Québec City? Yes, nearly all television deals and many corporate sponsors are already in place with Montréal but, businesses in Québec (Montreal based Québecor is the obvious example) would be more willing to support a second team in the province that has more solidarity than say Ontario where Toronto is the centre of the universe.

Another reason of course is to put asses in seats. If the Nordique come back, the entire Québec City region will support them while in Ottawa, we still struggle to convert Habs and Leaf fans 25 years later.

The location of the arena is also a factor. While the Videotron Centre is in a fairly suburban location, it is much more central than the Corel Centre. And here in Ottawa, we’ve seen a remarkable drop in attendance after LeBreton was placed on the table (I’ll go to a game 5 years from now when the Sens move downtown mentality). If the deal falls through, even more fans will give up.

Finally, it would be a much easier sell to the NHL and their US centric ideology to move a Canadian team to another Canadian city than an American team to Canada. Not to mention the Sens have a strong French connection, making it the best option for Québec if they were to get a relocation.

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Rumors of Melnyk selling the team have been swirling lately. IMO he'll sell once a firm agreement with NCC regarding Lebreton is negotiated.

For sure. The team’s value (according to Forbes) went up by 18% (compared to 5% for the Flames) over the last year, despite the attendance woes. I attribute that, along with Calgary’s modest increase of value, on arena deals; ours still under negotiation, while Calgary’s essentially dead.

I think this is his last gamble. If the LeBreton deal goes through, he'll cash out and make a killing, if it falls through, he'll count his losses and walk away.

Originally Posted by Dominion301

I've read that there is expected to be a major (positive) status update announcement regarding Lebreton coming sometime in January.

The correlation between the success of the return of the CFL to Lansdowne and the incredible atmosphere at REDBLACKS games (win or lose) and the decline in Senators attendance is staggering.

The new Sens arena should seat a max. of 17,500 adopting the less is more model like Winnipeg's so successfully done...it's exactly why the REDBLACKS have operated at 99% capacity save for a couple of games in the pouring rain (I was at one of those and even then there were 21,000) since day one. The days of an NHL team in a market the size of Ottawa-Gatineau needing a 20,000 person capacity arena are gone.

Anything less than "We, the NCC, will start the site cleanup this spring" will be unacceptable.

I agree; a large scale Lansdowne atmosphere and a more compact arena will make a huge difference.

Originally Posted by Horus

In my observation, the team and the Ottawa fan base did nothing to try to sway any disgruntled Leaf fans over. In my observation, (disclosure - I am a Leaf fan now living in the Ottawa area) the overwhelming quality of a Sens fan is an undying (and sometimes irrational) hatred of the Leafs. It even seems that hatred of the Leafs supersedes their affection for the Senators. It's no surprise that they have been largely unsuccessful in converting long-time Leaf fans into Senators fans.

Leaf fans in general have that same irrational hatred for the Sens. During the playoffs last year, a Leaf fan on the Canada forum was bashing the Sens, like really shitting on them constantly for no apparent reason. I tried to swoop in and give some rational counterpoints to defend the Sens while giving credit to the Leafs for their respectable season and he just didn't respond. In general, he responded to negative comments from others and ignored constructive dialogue.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Well let me ask you, if a Sens fan had presented a really good argument as to why you should convert away from the blue team, would you have actually seriously considered doing so? Also, are you from the NCR originally or from somewhere else?

I'm not originally from NCR (I am from GTA) so I am admittedly a tougher fan to crack. There is still a lot of Leaf Nation immersion to overcome. However, in the years I've been living here, I do find it telling that even on the Official Radio broadcaster of the team, they tend to frame the Ottawa-Toronto rivalry in terms of how bad/hated Toronto is and not how good the Sens are. Perhaps I'm putting too much stock into one particular broadcaster, but it does fail to provide a compelling argument for me to want to switch allegiances.

The fans the team should be trying to win over are those who have always lived in this area and grew up as Leafs (or Habs) fans. There's been over 25 years to work on them.

To briefly address your question about a compelling positive argument - you guys had some good and likeable players during your strong run in the mid-2000's. However, there were still many of the players that a lot of Leaf fans despised from the heyday of the Battle of Ontario. It would have been a tough sell.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Leaf fans in general have that same irrational hatred for the Sens. During the playoffs last year, a Leaf fan on the Canada forum was bashing the Sens, like really shitting on them constantly for no apparent reason. I tried to swoop in and give some rational counterpoints to defend the Sens while giving credit to the Leafs for their respectable season and he just didn't respond. In general, he responded to negative comments from others and ignored constructive dialogue.

I am aware of that guy and I don't think he's representative of Leaf fans in general. I would think it's more likely that in the past 10 years or so, Leaf fans have become mostly indifferent to Ottawa. The "Battle of Ontario" definitely seems to have more importance to Sens fans than Leaf fans in that time. But, that could just be my opinion.

I could go on, but I don't want to hijack this thread too much away from the OT of Kanata LRT. Perhaps we can move this discussion to another thread. I'd be happy to continue a good conversation on this topic.

[lrt's friend]

Switching allegiances is pretty well over. There would have been two time periods when this took place. When Ottawa won a franchise and started playing and when the Sens became a good team.

The remaining local Habs and Leaf fans are too intensely supportive of their team. They are lost causes.

The only thing the Sens can now do is try to capture the next generation.

It is very similar to the city itself. Divided loyalties with almost equal pulls to both Montreal and Toronto and a generally transient population.

Quebec City doesn't face this and there is a natural civic pride and competition with Montreal.

These exact same dynamics affect hockey support.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by Horus

I'm not originally from NCR (I am from GTA) so I am admittedly a tougher fan to crack. There is still a lot of Leaf Nation immersion to overcome. However, in the years I've been living here, I do find it telling that even on the Official Radio broadcaster of the team, they tend to frame the Ottawa-Toronto rivalry in terms of how bad/hated Toronto is and not how good the Sens are. Perhaps I'm putting too much stock into one particular broadcaster, but it does fail to provide a compelling argument for me to want to switch allegiances.

The fans the team should be trying to win over are those who have always lived in this area and grew up as Leafs (or Habs) fans. There's been over 25 years to work on them.

To briefly address your question about a compelling positive argument - you guys had some good and likeable players during your strong run in the mid-2000's. However, there were still many of the players that a lot of Leaf fans despised from the heyday of the Battle of Ontario. It would have been a tough sell.



I am aware of that guy and I don't think he's representative of Leaf fans in general. I would think it's more likely that in the past 10 years or so, Leaf fans have become mostly indifferent to Ottawa. The "Battle of Ontario" definitely seems to have more importance to Sens fans than Leaf fans in that time. But, that could just be my opinion.

I could go on, but I don't want to hijack this thread too much away from the OT of Kanata LRT. Perhaps we can move this discussion to another thread. I'd be happy to continue a good conversation on this topic.

So in other words, your original comments about conversion were essentially empty words.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Leaf fans in general have that same irrational hatred for the Sens. During the playoffs last year, a Leaf fan on the Canada forum was bashing the Sens, like really shitting on them constantly for no apparent reason. I tried to swoop in and give some rational counterpoints to defend the Sens while giving credit to the Leafs for their respectable season and he just didn't respond. In general, he responded to negative comments from others and ignored constructive dialogue.

As for the Battle of Ontario being a one-sided hatred affair, all I can say is LOLLLLLLLLLLLLL! J.OT13's comments were spot-on. As more proof, how about booing Alfredsson incessantly for the ensuing decade after mocking Sundin's "stickgate" incident...need I say more in terms of Leafs fans caring? If Leafers didn't care, why boo?

The Battle of Ontario did definitely became a shadow of its former self during the decade of terrible Leafs teams, but last year when both teams were excelling, I definitely felt a revival of rivalry was occurring. However, it evolved into rivalry based on skill than fights/dirty antics (at least on the ice).

Now the Sens are in the toilet at the moment, so we'll see how it pans out the rest of this year. Ottawa is really the only city in the NHL squeezed between two other markets and certainly the only one squeezed between two "original 6" markets. If the original Senators hadn't relocated to St. Louis and gone bankrupt in the 1930s due to the depression (at the time the NCR's population was only about 250k in the 1931 census - compared to about 1.1 million for Montreal and 900k for Toronto), the 'fan base' landscape in 2017 sure would look different, not just in the NCR, but even in Toronto and Montreal (I know that's purely hypothetical).

Now how all this ties in with Kanata LRT, ummm I guess it means a Palladium stop isn't needed?

[ars]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Switching allegiances is pretty well over. There would have been two time periods when this took place. When Ottawa won a franchise and started playing and when the Sens became a good team.

The remaining local Habs and Leaf fans are too intensely supportive of their team. They are lost causes.

The only thing the Sens can now do is try to capture the next generation.

It is very similar to the city itself. Divided loyalties with almost equal pulls to both Montreal and Toronto and a generally transient population.

Quebec City doesn't face this and there is a natural civic pride and competition with Montreal.

These exact same dynamics affect hockey support.

Pretty much this. Most of the Ottawa born and bred Leafs and Habs fans converted to the Sens when Ottawa was awarded a franchise. The Leafs and Habs fans in Ottawa who grew up in the GTA or Montreal/Quebec(province) are pretty much impossible to convert unless they're an extremely casual fan who watches maybe a few games per season.

The Sens need to start being a consistently good team and continue their grassroots efforts to bring in a younger generation of fans. The fan support during the few seasons post-lockout was tremendous, there was a lot of hype and optimism for the Sens during that time, so the fanbase is definitely there. The problem is that the Sens have been inconsistent since their cup final appearance, ranging from really good(though not elite like the pre-lockout and 05-06 and 06-07 teams) to middling to really bad.

[kevinbottawa]

Originally Posted by ars

The Leafs and Habs fans in Ottawa who grew up in the GTA or Montreal/Quebec(province) are pretty much impossible to convert unless they're an extremely casual fan who watches maybe a few games per season.

I'm one of those people. I spent most of my life in the GTA and became a Sens fan when I moved here. I was a huge Leafs fans from when I was a kid until the Darcy Tucker era (and hated the Sens) but I stopped watching the Leafs long before I moved to Ottawa because they sucked for so long and the Raptors grew in popularity. Now I hate the Leafs.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by ars

Now how all this ties in with Kanata LRT, ummm I guess it means a Palladium stop isn't needed?

One thing I read on Stittsville Central (https://stittsvillecentral.ca/notebook-a-skytrain-to-stittsville/) is:

It’s quite possible the extension will be built in phases. For example, phase 1 could extend to Terry Fox, and phase 2 could take the project all the way to Hazeldean Road. It all depends on funding.

That would certainly be my hope. An extension to Terry Fox should be a priority. Doing so will save hundreds of buses a day from driving across the greenbelt.

Beyond that it really depends on the future of the CTC. Since the city doesn't know what will happen to it, assuming the Senators do move, it seems silly to commit to any plan beyond Terry Fox. I am not against having a plan that may or may not be implemented though.

[PHrenetic]

Good Day...

as per SkeggsEggs and J.OT13 (posts 281 and 282 this thread),
Here is the link to the Kanata LRT OpenHouse2 city presentation (45 pages) from Shad Qadri :
https://shadqadri.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/klrt-poh2-presentation_dec7final.pdf

Here also is the link to the City's OpenHouse2 city presentation (32) boards :
https://ottawa.ca/en/kanata-light-rail-t...sment-study#open-house-2-december-7-2017
Be aware that boards 29 and 30 are identical / repeated.

The two sets of presentation cover the subject in different sequences and manners, with information in one that is not present in the other. So....FYI.

EnJoy!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Having said that, I think a lot of francophones will come over to the Sens with a move to Lebreton as I have always thought the Senators a) aren't within reach of the majority of the region's francophones being located in one of the most English parts of the NCR and b) the organization as a whole isn't French enough. Being at Lebreton, they're literally within 1 km of 85% francophone downtown Hull. Think of all the folks from that part of Hull that can jump on a 5 minute shuttle bus to the game or even walk or bike to the game on a nice day. The REDBLACKS have converted a lot of former Alouettes fans in Gatineau as they actually go after folks on the other side of the river (e.g. STO shuttles to games). I remember reading during the dreadful Renegades era that of the entire season ticket base, less than 30 came from the Quebec side of the river. That definitely is not the case nowadays.

It's not so much "francophones" as it is the Outaouais Québécois.

I've got family and lots of friends and acquaintances on both sides of the river, and francophones who live in Ottawa and Eastern Ontario have already massively switched over to the Sens (years ago). There are a few stragglers that still cheer for the Habs but by and large the Franco-Ontarian market in the 613 area code has been won over by the Senators. It could be that this does not translate into that many ticket sales due in part to the location of the arena, but if you go to Orleans, Embrun, Rockland, etc. that's all Senators territory by a wide margin.

You probably need to go as far as Hawkesbury to see the Habs dig into that.

Gatineau is another story as has been stated a gazillion times before. Interestingly enough I was at Sports Experts at Les Promenades Gatineau last night and right when you walked in was a large display with replica Sens and Habs jerseys. I thought to myself "that's not something you see every day in Gatineau: a store giving equal billing to the Sens alongside the Habs".

Well, there was a twist: it was a special promo for the outdoor game at Lansdowne this weekend.

Just metres away was the store's main window display, which as usual was filled only with Habs' jerseys: Price, Drouin, Pacioretty, etc.

I agree with you about the Redblacks. That team has squared the circle and done what many thought was impossible: they've gotten Gatineau and the Outaouais excited about an Ottawa sports team.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Think of all the folks from that part of Hull that can jump on a 5 minute shuttle bus to the game or even walk or bike to the game on a nice day.

Having STO shuttles to games (and other major events at LeBreton) will be key (along with appropriate marketing). I don't think it is too late to win over Gatineau residents with a new, more central arena.

[AndyMEng]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day...

as per SkeggsEggs and J.OT13 (posts 281 and 282 this thread),
Here is the link to the Kanata LRT OpenHouse2 city presentation (45 pages) from Shad Qadri :
https://shadqadri.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/klrt-poh2-presentation_dec7final.pdf

Here also is the link to the City's OpenHouse2 city presentation (32) boards :
https://ottawa.ca/en/kanata-light-rail-t...sment-study#open-house-2-december-7-2017
Be aware that boards 29 and 30 are identical / repeated.

The two sets of presentation cover the subject in different sequences and manners, with information in one that is not present in the other. So....FYI.

EnJoy!

I'll never understand why we're taking the existing kanata transitway and just putting a train on it. A train that doesn't really go to population centres...

I made a quick map of my opinion. Using existing rail lines (mostly)... and some pretty NIMBY battleground areas.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=12Z_W1N4vCFvTcWJYQfXTZyB-trFuOm-a&usp=sharing

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by AndyMEng

I'll never understand why we're taking the existing kanata transitway and just putting a train on it.

What existing Kanata transitway? There are bus lanes on the 417 between Moodie and Eagleson, but that is about it. West of Eagleson the buses wind along city streets.

Stage 2 is connecting and converting several disconnected sections of transitway in the west (Tunnies Pasture to Dominion, Lincoln Fields to Baseline and Pinecrest to Moodie), but the proposed Stage 3 extension doesn't replace any sections of existing transitway.

[AndyMEng]

Originally Posted by roger1818

What existing Kanata transitway? There are bus lanes on the 417 between Moodie and Eagleson, but that is about it. West of Eagleson the buses wind along city streets.

Stage 2 is connecting and converting several disconnected sections of transitway in the west (Tunnies Pasture to Dominion, Lincoln Fields to Baseline and Pinecrest to Moodie), but the proposed Stage 3 extension doesn't replace any sections of existing transitway.

Sorry, I lump car traffic into a transitway. A gigantic highway is my transitway equivalent. Just because buses jump off at Eagleson and the intersection isn't configured to put the bus back on doesn't make it less of a transitway.

A simple extension of the bus lanes would do the trick, exactly where the train line is going in these new design plans. Force everyone to walk 250m across the highway. My problem is that Katimavik would get a meh amount of passengers, and the Centrum (Which nobody on earth walks to, except for a guy I saw the other day who walked to his house behind the Signature Centre in his track pants). The train is so much more expensive, and doesn't go to the population centers. Leave the bus lanes as they are, maybe make a Centrum line a future Phase 4 priority, and get the train to the bedroom communities to alleviate crazy March Road and Terry Fox traffic patterns in the morning/evening.

Every other city in the world makes branching train lines because it makes logical sense. Why can't we?

(Granted, in my map I abandoned Kanata Lakes South/Beaverbrook because they're hopelessly tangled and can only be served by car or bus. So the buses run down the highway and run their routes through the twisty routes there)

[J.OT13]

The good thing with the City's Kanata route is that it serves areas with huge TOD potential. Kanata could develop into something like the Vancouver suburbs of Barnaby or Surrey with a massive skyline of its own. In Orleans, other than Place d'Orleans and Trim, there is no potential for TOD along the approved route.

[J.OT13]

Here's what I envision for Kanata about 30 years after the O-Train extends to Hazeldean. From the Great Canadian Suburban Skyline Thread.

Originally Posted by mcminsen

Looking east at the Gilmore/Brentwood skyline in Burnaby as seen from Rupert Station (in Vancouver).

Nov.1 '17, my pic

Originally Posted by Klazu

Last week a thick fog blanketed over Metro Vancouver for several days.

Originally Posted by Klazu

More Burnaby's Metrotown.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The good thing with the City's Kanata route is that it serves areas with huge TOD potential. Kanata could develop into something like the Vancouver suburbs of Barnaby or Surrey with a massive skyline of its own. In Orleans, other than Place d'Orleans and Trim, there is no potential for TOD along the approved route.

The Kanata route is not much more amendable to TOD than Orleans. In both cases, a large chunk of the 500- and 1000-meter radiuseses are tied up in the Queensway and lands reserved for more Queensway. And there is really not enough economic pressure on land in Kanata to build up, with probably a healthy dollop of NIMBYism mitigating against it anyway.

The place to generate some serious TOD would be to start building higher-order transit under main streets, especially the Rideau-Montreal corridor. But that's not happening either. We're just building junk LRT to suburbs that don't need it, while keeping urban areas dependent on junk bus service. The long-term plan represents the worst of both transit worlds.

[roger1818]

^^^Metrotown is only about 10 km from downtown Vancouver, so it really is more comparable to Bayshore in Ottawa. Kanata is more comparable to New Westminster, Coquitlam or even Surrey (though Surrey is a bit further).

[eltodesukane]

"Why light rail transit will completely bypass the high-tech corridor in Kanata North where thousands of people work in the west end of Ottawa
and why a LRT station is planned near the Canadian Tire Centre that may cease to exist in the not too distant future
were among the issues raised by residents... "
"The plans for the Kanata expansion are still earmarked for as far out as 2031... "
https://www.ottawacommunitynews.com/news...ay-and-relies-on-funding-coming-through/