Kanata LRT EA - Bayshore to Palladium

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

It's entirely possible, but I somehow doubt that would be the case. I don't see why they wouldn't just secure a corridor in the subdivision plan, like they did Avalon, and simply plan for grade-separated crossings.

The "Avalon" corridor is a good example. If you look at the approved EA for the Cumberland Transitway you can see that they were proposing at-grade, signalized crossings at Esprit, Portobello, and Provence, plus two signalized MUP crossings. Now lets imagine we are putting LRT down that corridor, and we are following the City's (silly / stupid) requirement for complete grade-separation. You could do one of the following:

Option 1: Grade Separate Major Roads

• Grade separate Portobello (road over rail), maybe Esprit (rail over road probably), and Trim (road over rail).
• Dead-end Provence, and maybe Esprit, and remove MUP crossings

Option 2: Elevated Rail

• All roads and MUPs are automatically grade-separated.

In terms of cost, I'd imagine Option 1 and Option 2 are actually fairly comparable. However Option 2 has way better community connectivity, and there is no need to change the vertical grade of the road or the rail throughout the alignment. Disadvantage of Option 2 is that an established community usually doesn't like to see elevated rail right outside their backyard (NIMBYism). Elevated rail probably would of been the preferred option for the Byron / Richmond corridor if it wasn't for that disadvantage.

The Kanata LRT doesn't (or shouldn't) have the NIMBY problem because it doesn't run through established communities. Another advantage of elevated rail in the Kanata LRT context is that the LRT is supposed to run directly next to a new north-south major arterial road between Maple Grove and Hazeldean. If the LRT was at-grade then the entirety of the intersections between the new N-S arterial and Maple Grove / Hazeldean (and intersections with any other east-west collectors) would have to be elevated above the LRT ($$$). That's why, when running directly next to a major roadway, its better to either elevate (see Millenium Line next to Lougheed Highway in Vancouver) or depress (see the Transitway / LRT trench next to Scott Street in Ottawa) the rail. This also applies to when the Kanata LRT is running next to Huntmar.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

The "Avalon" corridor is a good example. If you look at the approved EA for the Cumberland Transitway you can see that they were proposing at-grade, signalized crossings at Esprit, Portobello, and Provence, plus two signalized MUP crossings. Now lets imagine we are putting LRT down that corridor, and we are following the City's (silly / stupid) requirement for complete grade-separation. You could do one of the following:

Option 1: Grade Separate Major Roads

• Grade separate Portobello (road over rail), maybe Esprit (rail over road probably), and Trim (road over rail).
• Dead-end Provence, and maybe Esprit, and remove MUP crossings

Option 2: Elevated Rail

• All roads and MUPs are automatically grade-separated.

In terms of cost, I'd imagine Option 1 and Option 2 are actually fairly comparable. However Option 2 has way better community connectivity, and there is no need to change the vertical grade of the road or the rail throughout the alignment. Disadvantage of Option 2 is that an established community usually doesn't like to see elevated rail right outside their backyard (NIMBYism). Elevated rail probably would of been the preferred option for the Byron / Richmond corridor if it wasn't for that disadvantage.

The Kanata LRT doesn't (or shouldn't) have the NIMBY problem because it doesn't run through established communities. Another advantage of elevated rail in the Kanata LRT context is that the LRT is supposed to run directly next to a new north-south major arterial road between Maple Grove and Hazeldean. If the LRT was at-grade then the entirety of the intersections between the new N-S arterial and Maple Grove / Hazeldean (and intersections with any other east-west collectors) would have to be elevated above the LRT ($$$). That's why, when running directly next to a major roadway, its better to either elevate (see Millenium Line next to Lougheed Highway in Vancouver) or depress (see the Transitway / LRT trench next to Scott Street in Ottawa) the rail. This also applies to when the Kanata LRT is running next to Huntmar.

It's hard for me to imagine both options having comparable costs. I would expect the elevated stations alone would make it a fair bit more expensive, but I'm no expert when it comes to this stuff. I suppose I also find it difficult to picture an elevated guideway running through a low-density suburban neighbourhood.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

It's hard for me to imagine both options having comparable costs. I would expect the elevated stations alone would make it a fair bit more expensive, but I'm no expert when it comes to this stuff. I suppose I also find it difficult to picture an elevated guideway running through a low-density suburban neighbourhood.

That's basically the Vancouver model, except they accept densification around the stations. I doubt Ottawa will allow that...

[ars]

I don't think the Sens are staying in Kanata regardless of the status of LRT at Palladium. The location has been identified as one the main causes of low attendance and I think they want to move the team to Lebreton ASAP.

[J.OT13]

If LeBreton Flats falls through, I think the Sens will pack up and move out of Ottawa.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

That's basically the Vancouver model, except they accept densification around the stations. I doubt Ottawa will allow that...

The sudden appearance of 40+ story buildings in Ottawa breaking the previous rule that no building shalt be taller than 30 stories, all centered around LRT stations, seems to indicate that we are taking that model to heart.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

The sudden appearance of 40+ story buildings in Ottawa breaking the previous rule that no building shalt be taller than 30 stories, all centered around LRT stations, seems to indicate that we are taking that model to heart.

But those are in old Ottawa. I think the big test will be the 13 story building proposed on St-Joseph.

[FFX-ME]

Does anyone know when the transportation master plan will be updated?

[Norman Bates]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

If LeBreton Flats falls through, I think the Sens will pack up and move out of Ottawa.

I concur.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

That's basically the Vancouver model, except they accept densification around the stations. I doubt Ottawa will allow that...

Vancouver has really taken transit oriented development to heart, and it's been great for them, but I don't think there's enough demand for TOD all the way out in Kanata to justify that kind of investment. There's already plenty of prime locations for TOD inside the greenbelt as it is.

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

Does anyone know when the transportation master plan will be updated?

2021
http://www.metronews.ca/news/ottawa/2017...tions-call-for-action-on-oc-transpo.html

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

Vancouver has really taken transit oriented development to heart, and it's been great for them, but I don't think there's enough demand for TOD all the way out in Kanata to justify that kind of investment. There's already plenty of prime locations for TOD inside the greenbelt as it is.

Agreed. I would also argue that a much higher percentage of Kanata/Stittsville residents work in Kanata/Stittsville than either Barrhaven or Orleans residents work within their own suburbs. As a result, LRT won't work as popular in Kanata as it will in the other two suburbs, making TOD less appealing.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

If LeBreton Flats falls through, I think the Sens will pack up and move out of Ottawa.

Won't happen. Melnyk would be forced out as owner of the Sens if he threatened to move the team out of Ottawa.

Anyway its a moot point, the Sens will move downtown. It's just a matter of how soon and my guess is 2026

[FFX-ME]

F*ck all those Canadiens and Leafs fans that live in Ottawa and its surrounding areas. If they weren't for them Ottawa could have a good fan base but as it stands we're worse off than Winnipeg. People need to cheer for the home team, it's good for the city.

[FFX-ME]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Won't happen. Melnyk would be forced out as owner of the Sens if he threatened to move the team out of Ottawa.

Anyway its a moot point, the Sens will move downtown. It's just a matter of how soon and my guess is 2026

I any case, how many more years does Melnyk have as an owner?

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

If LeBreton Flats falls through, I think the Sens will pack up and move out of Ottawa.

They will only move if Lebreton doesn't happen (unlikely, as there is far too much money involved), and there is a better market for them.

I think it is unlikely that there is a better market than Ottawa. There is no chance that they would move to the western conference, and even if they considered it, the potential markets in the west are essentially spoken for (Seattle - expansion team, and Houston - relocation of Arizona).

In the east, there really isn't much in the way of markets, and there are at least three franchises that are on weaker ground (Florida, Carolina, Islanders).

Those suggesting Quebec as a likely destination would need to explain how Quebec is a better market, given that it has a bit more than half of Ottawa's population, a smaller TV market, lower average incomes and a similar government-centric economy. My guess is that a move to Quebec would lop 40% off the value of the franchise in one shot.

[zzptichka]

Rumors of Melnyk selling the team have been swirling lately. IMO he'll sell once a firm agreement with NCC regarding Lebreton is negotiated.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

F*ck all those Canadiens and Leafs fans that live in Ottawa and its surrounding areas. If they weren't for them Ottawa could have a good fan base but as it stands we're worse off than Winnipeg. People need to cheer for the home team, it's good for the city.

Right, but that's part of the challenge of the Ottawa market. Francophones probably rooted for the Canadiens and Anglophones rooted for Toronto when Ottawa had no team. Converting these people, even though it's the home team, is incredibly difficult since it's basically a family tradition that gets passed down.

The best way to beat this? Field an impressive and world-class team that could become a dynasty. Ottawa under Melnyk doesn't seem to want to do that. He simply wants the best possible result his budget can afford.

If Ottawa had a well-rounded and invested team like so many others in the NHL, said problems would be minimized.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

If LeBreton Flats falls through, I think the Sens will pack up and move out of Ottawa.

I've read that there is expected to be a major (positive) status update announcement regarding Lebreton coming sometime in January.

The NCC need the Sens at Lebreton about as much as the Sens themselves do, so that the NCC can finally end the bleeding of the money pit (not to mention the humiliating embarrassment to the federal government for the past +50 years) that is Lebreton.

The correlation between the success of the return of the CFL to Lansdowne and the incredible atmosphere at REDBLACKS games (win or lose) and the decline in Senators attendance is staggering. Before Lansdowne, people in Ottawa didn't know what it was like to have an urban sports stadium/arena. The endless emptiness of the Kanata parking lots (which has doubled from $10 to $20 in the past 10 years vs the FREE Lansdowne shuttles) was the same at Lansdowne when it was nothing more than a sea of crumbling asphalt.

The new Sens arena should seat a max. of 17,500 adopting the less is more model like Winnipeg's so successfully done...it's exactly why the REDBLACKS have operated at 99% capacity save for a couple of games in the pouring rain (I was at one of those and even then there were 21,000) since day one. The days of an NHL team in a market the size of Ottawa-Gatineau needing a 20,000 person capacity arena are gone.

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

Right, but that's part of the challenge of the Ottawa market. Francophones probably rooted for the Canadiens and Anglophones rooted for Toronto when Ottawa had no team. Converting these people, even though it's the home team, is incredibly difficult since it's basically a family tradition that gets passed down.

The best way to beat this? Field an impressive and world-class team that could become a dynasty. Ottawa under Melnyk doesn't seem to want to do that. He simply wants the best possible result his budget can afford.

If Ottawa had a well-rounded and invested team like so many others in the NHL, said problems would be minimized.

You raise some excellent points. "La tradition" is tough to break and kids are heavily pressured to remain loyal to their parents' team in order to "please their parents".

On top of that, there are tens of thousands of former Montrealers and Torontonians that call Ottawa home, many of whom will never convert. There are actually a lot of Senators fans in Toronto (e.g. I'd never convert away from the Sens if I moved out of Ottawa, so it's easy to understand the challenges), but since corporations control such a large percentage of Leafs tickets, it's much tougher to obtain tickets for a Sens fan in Toronto than it is for Leafs fans to come to Ottawa, where literally there are tour groups that book blocks of tickets and come up by the bus load. The number of non-OC buses at a Sens-Leafs or Sens-Canadiens game is always at least double that of a game against any other team. It's at its worst on Saturday nights against those teams. Ottawa has been a walk-up crowd type of market forever.

Having said that, I think a lot of francophones will come over to the Sens with a move to Lebreton as I have always thought the Senators a) aren't within reach of the majority of the region's francophones being located in one of the most English parts of the NCR and b) the organization as a whole isn't French enough. Being at Lebreton, they're literally within 1 km of 85% francophone downtown Hull. Think of all the folks from that part of Hull that can jump on a 5 minute shuttle bus to the game or even walk or bike to the game on a nice day. The REDBLACKS have converted a lot of former Alouettes fans in Gatineau as they actually go after folks on the other side of the river (e.g. STO shuttles to games). I remember reading during the dreadful Renegades era that of the entire season ticket base, less than 30 came from the Quebec side of the river. That definitely is not the case nowadays.

A big part of the problem is the team's owner. He needs to sell or the attendance woes will only worsen until Lebreton gets built. http://ottawasun.com/2017/08/31/senators...wcm/d3c6e591-d055-4580-8c6b-8d58e1fe5dd1

[lrt's friend]

I worry about the Sens. Even last year, a team that went to Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Final did not garner excitement until almost the end. And this year, what a mess? I see the same issues as two years ago, regular horrendous defensive breakdowns, Karlsson trying to do way too much, and add to that, no offense. I am not sure of what is going on.

I agree that the RedBlacks even with a less than a stellar year but a centrally located stadium have seemed to have provided enormous competition against the Sens in the local sports market.

It is critical that the Sens move downtown. This will help attract more fans from across the entire city including the Quebec side. CTC has skewed the fan base to the west half of the city. The whole parking rip-off is adding to this when RedBlack fans go to the park quite efficiently by transit.

The problem is that the team built a fan base from 1997 to 2007 when the team was consistently good. Since then, even though we have been in the playoffs with some exciting series, there just seems to be a lack of consistency that we are building to something better.

The challenge of the market with the family traditions of Habs and Leaf fans would be reduced if the team could field a team with real expectations as a contender. Despite last year's surprise, this team has not been a contender since 2007. We need to build real excitement and real expectation which would slowly get the Habs and Leaf local fan bases to start to dwindle or dwindle more quickly. I fear a Leaf run will actually weaken the Sens fan base.

If the new arena goes ahead, the Sens are secure in Ottawa, but we need a more competitive team. I know, in the last few seasons, I have turned off Sens games repeatedly as the team lacks a dynamic that builds confidence that the team will at least try to come back or they play such a stifled style that once trailing more than one goal, there is no hope.