Stadiums and Arenas of Canada

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Cyrodill

^^ Others have mentioned this year as unusual(Grey Cup/Winning Record)

Sask: 10 year average attendance:

2002 24,226
2003 29,352
2004 24,783
2005 25,454
2006 25,293
2007 28,054
2008 29,996
2009 30,606
2010 30,148
2011 29,940 ** (5-13)
2012 32,351

10 years earlier Avg. 1992- 2002 - Anywhere from 19,000-28,500 ?

** Bad Season?

You decide if Sask should keep the extra seats at the price level they have. Why is the BrainTrust in Sask. only budgeting for 33-34 K seats in the new stadium. Average attendance over 20 years possibly ?

Source:

The Riders are on very different footing in terms of their link to the cultural fabric of the province (something they have definitely worked on a bit lately too). It's also important to note that the CFL as a whole was doing terribly from the 90s into the early 2000s, so by and large, I ignore those attendance stats for basically every team. Afterall, I doubt Alouettes will go back to drawing 8k to their games, the Lions 10-20k. Will the Bombers go back to 21k-ish as well?

I think it's useful to look at where things were (keep the past in mind), it I also feel that the Rider's (and CFL's) business is fundamentally different than it once was. 2008-2010 for the Riders were basically all sell outs, even a large portion of 2011 was. It just depended on when in the season they added some extra seating in terms of the average shifting upward.

The only problem I have with limiting supply is that you could have an Alouettes situation form. Supply is so restricted, for so long, that not going to games becomes the tradition. Sometimes excess demand builds up due to lack of supply, but sometimes the lack of supply dimishes the demand instead as it becomes something that is just unattainable; you end up losing the casual fan. It's a fine line to toe.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Aren't the expansion seats at Mosaic Stadium (the ones installed this year, specifically for the Grey Cup) rented?

I imagine the larger temporary stands are rented, but the smaller sections in the end zone were to be donated to high schools around Saskatchewan after the Grey Cup. I imagine those are owned by the Riders. Perhaps they can keep more of those and buy some for those schools; its an investment in their own future and a wise thing to do.

Originally Posted by esquire

This season is a perfect storm of an amazing team and the Grey Cup being played in Regina so it made sense to open them up during the regular season. But considering that those seats are selling for a relatively low amount (somewhere between $25 and $30), I'm not sure it would be cost effective to keep them up beyond this season.

Even if they took a slight loss on those seats (which I doubt) the point is to gauge what the upper limit to demand is so the new stadium is built to a capacity that makes sense. That's hard to figure out when you're sold out all the time. This is their chance to find out where that upper limit is.

Originally Posted by esquire

33,000 is still a huge number for a city of Regina's size. In terms of proportion of population attending games, it would be like, what, 750,000 people attending a football game in Toronto?

More like 900,000, but the point stands: support for football in Regina is through the roof. Nothing like it exists in Canada and I doubt there's any place that trumps the hold that this cultural institution has on an entire population. That alone makes the level of support there special, newsworthy, and a cultural phenomenon. Perhaps Green Bay, but the surrounding population in Wisconsin dwarfs that available to the Riders in Saskatchewan.

I even saw an Australian newspaper do a story on it. I bet they hadn't ever heard of Saskatchewan before that, or that we played a game called Canadian football. It's a story that's reaching beyond our borders and putting Canadian culture on the map.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Cyrodill

^^ Others have mentioned this year as unusual(Grey Cup/Winning Record)

Sask: 10 year average attendance:

2002 24,226
2003 29,352
2004 24,783
2005 25,454
2006 25,293
2007 28,054
2008 29,996
2009 30,606
2010 30,148
2011 29,940 ** (5-13)
2012 32,351

10 years earlier Avg. 1992- 2002 - Anywhere from 19,000-28,500 ?

** Bad Season?

You decide if Sask should keep the extra seats at the price level they have. Why is the BrainTrust in Sask. only budgeting for 33-34 K seats in the new stadium. Average attendance over 20 years possibly ?

Source:

The trend line is definitely one of increasing attendance. It's tricky to decide what sized stadium to build when a franchise is going through a historic growth phase. Where it settles is hard to say.

[Chadillaccc]

Not to mention that I'm sure more people will be inclined to go to games once they have a half-decent or great stadium rather than the current set of 80-year-old bleachers

[king10]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

oh.. ok.. i'll put it in bold this time so its maybe easier to identify ..
..thanks

With all the new/under construction Stadiums and Arenas in the country, I thought I'd take an inventory of what Canada has in stock, If I missed or got size order wrong let me know..

top ten(+2) Stadiums:

Olympic Stadium, Montreal... 66,000 seats
Commonwealth Stadium, Edmonton... 56,000 seats
BC Place, Vancouver... 54,000 seats
Roger Skydome, Toronto... 52,000 seats
Mosaic Stadium at Taylor Field, Regina... 33,000 seats to 45,000 seats**
McMahon Stadium, Calgary... 38,000 seats
Investors Group Field, Winnipeg... 33,000 seats
Molson Stadium, Montreal... 25,000 seats
Tim Hortons Field* Hamilton... 24,000 seats
Lansdowne Park* Ottawa... 24,000 seats
BMO field, Toronto... 22,000 seats
Saputo stadium, Montreal... 21,000 seats

top ten(+1) Arenas:

Bell Centre, Montreal... 21,000 seats
ScotiaBank Saddledome, Calgary... 19,300 seats
Canadian Tire Centre, Ottawa... 19,200 seats
Rogers Arena, Vancouver... 18,900 seats
Air Canada Centre, Toronto... 18,800 seats
Copps Coliseum, Hamilton... 17,400 seats
Rexall Place, Edmonton... 16,800 seats
Pacific Coliseum, Vancouver... 16,300 seats
Credit Union Centre, Saskatoon... 15,200 seats
Colisée Pepsi, Quebec City... 15,200 seats
MTS centre, Winnipeg... 15,000 seats

* Stadiums under construction and scheduled to open in next couple/few years
** with the addition of temporary seating added 2013
~With new arenas proposed in Edmonton and under construction Quebec City, arenas list will likely change in a few years..

forgot about quebec citys arena that is under construction and slated to replace the colisee

[SaskScraper]

More like 900,000, but the point stands: support for football in Regina is through the roof. Nothing like it exists in Canada and I doubt there's any place that trumps the hold that this cultural institution has on an entire population. That alone makes the level of support there special, newsworthy, and a cultural phenomenon. Perhaps Green Bay, but the surrounding population in Wisconsin dwarfs that available to the Riders in Saskatchewan.

I even saw an Australian newspaper do a story on it. I bet they hadn't ever heard of Saskatchewan before that, or that we played a game called Canadian football. It's a story that's reaching beyond our borders and putting Canadian culture on the map.

College Football in USA tends to have a strong pull in areas. TexasU longhorns play in a 100,000 seat stadium in a city not much larger than Calgary..
Nebraska Cornhuskers play in a stadium with 90,000 seats in city not much larger than Regina, and a State far less than twice as many people as Saskatchewan. You definitely know its game day in these cities with tailgate parties going on..

I do think Riders do have a special cultural place in the province, much like football does in general in the Prairies as it does in the MidWest, that doesn't exist in other parts of the country. (half of all CFL teams are on the Prairies after all)

Darrell K Royal–Texas Memorial Stadium in Austin from last Longhorns game I was at

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by king10

forgot about quebec citys arena that is under construction and slated to replace the colisee

With all the new/under construction Stadiums and Arenas in the country, I thought I'd take an inventory of what Canada has in stock, If I missed or got size order wrong let me know..

top ten(+2) Stadiums:

Olympic Stadium, Montreal... 66,000 seats
Commonwealth Stadium, Edmonton... 56,000 seats
BC Place, Vancouver... 54,000 seats
Roger Skydome, Toronto... 52,000 seats
Mosaic Stadium at Taylor Field, Regina... 33,000 seats to 45,000 seats**
McMahon Stadium, Calgary... 38,000 seats
Investors Group Field, Winnipeg... 33,000 seats
Molson Stadium, Montreal... 25,000 seats
Tim Hortons Field* Hamilton... 24,000 seats
Lansdowne Park* Ottawa... 24,000 seats
BMO field, Toronto... 22,000 seats
Saputo stadium, Montreal... 21,000 seats

top ten(+1) Arenas:

Bell Centre, Montreal... 21,000 seats
ScotiaBank Saddledome, Calgary... 19,300 seats
Canadian Tire Centre, Ottawa... 19,200 seats
Rogers Arena, Vancouver... 18,900 seats
Air Canada Centre, Toronto... 18,800 seats
Copps Coliseum, Hamilton... 17,400 seats
Rexall Place, Edmonton... 16,800 seats
Pacific Coliseum, Vancouver... 16,300 seats
Credit Union Centre, Saskatoon... 15,200 seats
Colisée Pepsi, Quebec City... 15,200 seats
MTS centre, Winnipeg... 15,000 seats

* Stadiums under construction and scheduled to open in next couple/few years
** with the addition of temporary seating added 2013
~With new arenas proposed in Edmonton and under construction Quebec City, arenas list will likely change in a few years..

I will add it in once construction complete..if I remember that far in the future

[SaskScraper]

I heard a rumour recently that some Calgary Flames home games maybe temporally played in Saskatoon (besides the exhibition games already scheduled), due to the clean up at ScotiaBank Saddledome..
Any Calgarians hear anything to this tone lately?

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

College Football in USA tends to have a strong pull in areas. TexasU longhorns play in a 100,000 seat stadium in a city not much larger than Calgary..
Nebraska Cornhuskers play in a stadium with 90,000 seats in city not much larger than Regina, and a State far less than twice as many people as Saskatchewan. You definitely know its game day in these cities with tailgate parties going on..

I do think Riders do have a special cultural place in the province, much like football does in general in the Prairies as it does in the MidWest, that doesn't exist in other parts of the country. (half of all CFL teams are on the Prairies after all)

Darrell K Royal–Texas Memorial Stadium in Austin from last Longhorns game I was at

I made that Cornhuskers comparison on another site and was quickly silenced by an American with this comment:

Originally Posted by xzmattzx

You can't compare college football to professional football. Colleges have alumni, who will fly in from any part of the country for the game. So local market and local population don't really mean much. Student population also is not counted in the cities, so you have 20,000-40,000 kids who don't show up in the census and will attend the game en masse.

He's quite right; most of those schools get a massive bounce not available to a pro team. US college football gets huge crowds, but the situation in Regina is truly quite special. Green Bay is the only comparable, and Regina beats it imo.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Not to mention that I'm sure more people will be inclined to go to games once they have a half-decent or great stadium rather than the current set of 80-year-old bleachers

Quite right. Wouldn't it be nice to see 40,000+ become the new Rider normal. You'd have to go all the way back to the late 70s/early 80s to see Canadian football teams average crowds that large.

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I made that Cornhuskers comparison on another site and was quickly silenced by an American with this comment:



He's quite right; most of those schools get a massive bounce not available to a pro team. US college football gets huge crowds, but the situation in Regina is truly quite special.

Pro teams tend to draw mainly from their core city (which is the situation in Regina) where as US college football teams tend to draw from an entire state. Otherwise you would never have 65,000 people show up for games in Morgantown, WV (pop. 30,300) or 105,000 in State College, PA (pop. 42,500) or 85,000 in Clemson, SC (pop. 13,500) or any one of the dozens of small college towns drawing massive turnouts for football games. What Regina does is special for professional football and is something of which they should be quite proud.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Welkin

[/B]

Pro teams tend to draw mainly from their core city (which is the situation in Regina) where as US college football teams tend to draw from an entire state. Otherwise you would never have 65,000 people show up for games in Morgantown, WV (pop. 30,300) or 105,000 in State College, PA (pop. 42,500) or 85,000 in Clemson, SC (pop. 13,500) or any one of the dozens of small college towns drawing massive turnouts for football games. What Regina does is special for professional football and is something of which they should be quite proud.

Isn't that what I just said?

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by Welkin

[/B]

Pro teams tend to draw mainly from their core city (which is the situation in Regina) where as US college football teams tend to draw from an entire state. Otherwise you would never have 65,000 people show up for games in Morgantown, WV (pop. 30,300) or 105,000 in State College, PA (pop. 42,500) or 85,000 in Clemson, SC (pop. 13,500) or any one of the dozens of small college towns drawing massive turnouts for football games. What Regina does is special for professional football and is something of which they should be quite proud.

Not to mention US NCAA college teams play a short schedule and my only have 5 or 6 home games.

[craner]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

I heard a rumour recently that some Calgary Flames home games maybe temporally played in Saskatoon (besides the exhibition games already scheduled), due to the clean up at ScotiaBank Saddledome..
Any Calgarians hear anything to this tone lately?

I did hear this rumour a couple of months ago but the Flames maintain they will be playing at the dome (although it won't be fully rehabbed from the flood).
I think it would be cool if they had to play a few games in Saskatoon.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Quite right. Wouldn't it be nice to see 40,000+ become the new Rider normal. You'd have to go all the way back to the late 70s/early 80s to see Canadian football teams average crowds that large.

I think the point is some sport culture can draw fans from a wide base, US College football is a good example, with alumni and student base flocking to their traditional academic home and overflowing stadiums on game day. Another example is NFL in a small city that draws from State with a long football history, such as Green Bay.

While the Riders have over the years began to continually broaden their foundation of fans throughout province and drawing farther a field, increasing attendance at games, other teams in cities several times larger are reaching for new lows in their stadium sizes. There's recent talk in a different thread in SSP about just building a 25,000 seat stadium for the Argos and calling it a day. This wouldn't even be considered in city like Regina or province like Saskatchewan..football culture is alive and well in some parts of the country and all time lows per capita in other parts. It just depends on how much you want to have it, no excuses.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by craner

I did hear this rumour a couple of months ago but the Flames maintain they will be playing at the dome (although it won't be fully rehabbed from the flood).
I think it would be cool if they had to play a few games in Saskatoon.

Some recent/near future events on tour through out the west seem to have steered clear of Saddledome even tho Flames scheduled home start date remain, I'm just glad things are getting back to normal and Calgary's Stampede spirit has been on going

[Chadillaccc]

I don't know if Billy Talent was ever supposed to play at the Saddledome, but they're playing at Flames Central now. We're pretty excited to see!

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by isaidso

The trend line is definitely one of increasing attendance. It's tricky to decide what sized stadium to build when a franchise is going through a historic growth phase. Where it settles is hard to say.

It is steadily increasing, but like any market could slip from year to year but is on an upward trend,Like you mentioned, where it goes and ends up is difficult to predict.

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Not to mention that I'm sure more people will be inclined to go to games once they have a half-decent or great stadium rather than the current set of 80-year-old bleachers

This is so true. I don't have the #'s but I believe the BB's season ticket base increased substantially for this season with the new digs. Even after a poor performance by the team last year. Who knows if will decrease after this dismal season..Fluctuations...

[GlassCity]

I think you should always build stadiums of an optimistic size if you can afford it. BC Place is too big, but despite how it comes off on TV, it still really does feel special in there. So I think that building a 40,000 seat stadium for Regina even if they don't sell out every game would be a good idea-why turn people away? It's not the end of the world if they have a few empty seats.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I think you should always build stadiums of an optimistic size if you can afford it. BC Place is too big, but despite how it comes off on TV, it still really does feel special in there. So I think that building a 40,000 seat stadium for Regina even if they don't sell out every game would be a good idea-why turn people away? It's not the end of the world if they have a few empty seats.

The CFL stadiums that were built in the 1970s and 80s (Commonwealth, BC Place, Olympic Stadium, Skydome and before that the massively expanded Exhibition Stadium) were arguably overbuilt to the point that it virtually eliminated ticket scarcity. There is something to be said for having demand exceed the available supply, because it really raises the perceived value of the tickets. Look at the Leafs for the clearest example: no matter how terrible of a team they have, no one would dream of giving up their season tickets because once you lose them, you'll never get another shot. Contrast that with the list of stadiums I just mentioned... they generally go years and years between sellout crowds for football. People know tickets are always going to be available.

I agree with your general sentiment that there is something to be said for being in a big, sold-out stadium with a large crowd. I have been to several Grey Cups with > 60,000 fans in the stands (along with a few regular season games in Edmonton that have either sold out or come close), and the experience is awesome. But having all of those seats to sell in the regular season can hurt the teams more than they help.