Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[Franky]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

An interesting thing that I noticed in the transit report. The requirement for extension of LRT to Barrhaven, Orleans and Kanata, has nothing to do with overall community density or population, but instead it is based only on the density of the town centres. There is also a great variation in the size of the Town Centres defined for each suburb, which will greatly affect how quickly the required density can be achieved. It seems to me that this requirement is rather arbitrary, and assumes that demand for light rail will not be affected by the overall population of the community. It also seems to me that we are getting into another chicken and eggs debate. Light rail demands density, but light rail can be a tool to create density. In fact, the lack of light rail may prevent the required density from evolving. It is also interesting that this same argument is not being applied to Riverside South, where the same analysis is not being performed. I do agree that the circumstances and transportation requirements are different in Riverside South, but one has to wonder whether this town centre density requirement is really more about reducing expectations for light rail in Barrhaven, Kanata, and Orleans because the city simply cannot afford to extend service there. Of course, LRT to Barrhaven Town Centre is clearly affordable based on the specs of the cancelled project. Light rail through Baseline Station is going to be a very expensive proposition given the missing links in the Transitway. We already have an enormous price estimate for a very short section of Transitway just south of Baseline Station, a price per km similar to building the downtown tunnel.

No light rail to Riverside South puts pressure on building the Alta Vista Corridor - something many residents don't want and are fighting against. It's some kind of political game that makes no real sense. A road into the city core creates a new queue for cars to idle on. Public Transit makes more sense in this case, even if cars run on electricity because there just isn't room for more cars in the core.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Clearly, the airport parkway provides critical access to the airport. The city made a terrible mistake by turning it into a commuter route when they opened the Hunt Club ramps. What is the city going to do now that they have turned the parkway into a parking lot during peak hours? Clearly, light rail is now off the table for at least 20 years.

How else would people get to Wal-mart? I agree, bad idea.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Franky

No light rail to Riverside South puts pressure on building the Alta Vista Corridor - something many residents don't want and are fighting against. It's some kind of political game that makes no real sense. A road into the city core creates a new queue for cars to idle on. Public Transit makes more sense in this case, even if cars run on electricity because there just isn't room for more cars in the core.

They can take the bus?

[Franky]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

They can take the bus?

Good point. This means an extra transfer at Hurdman when Light Rail moves in.

[lrt's friend]

They can take the bus?

The bus isn't working. Out of necessity, the bus route has to follow the most popular route, which is also the most congested. Most are choosing the car because it gives them the flexibility of trying to find less congested routes into the city, although not necessarily the shortest.

[Luker]

yup^

And wow im really rattled about all this, and to think we could of had a nice base system to build off in 8-12years from now, instead well get less track for way more money plus a lawsuit, and still looking at 10+ years (well say 12 atbest knowing ottawa construction rates)... ahaha the sens will be in rebuild and ill be 33... never planning to go near a heavily depleted, ineadquate and congested transit system. And it really is going to be that bad metro ottawa is 870k currently, with ottawa/gat capital area is 1.15M projections indicate that the CORE could go grow to 1.25M by 2031 as a HIGH scenario, and 1.15M as a best example scenario.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The bus isn't working. Out of necessity, the bus route has to follow the most popular route, which is also the most congested. Most are choosing the car because it gives them the flexibility of trying to find less congested routes into the city, although not necessarily the shortest.

I'm not familiar with this problem. Where is/are the bottleneck?

[lrt's friend]

Essentially the whole route into the city is a bottleneck. Limebank/Riverside/Hunt Club all are subject to considerable congestion during peak periods. Express buses have been diverted on a much longer routing east of the airport, which is far from ideal. I cannot imagine another part of the city so poorly served by transit and several kms from the closest rapid transit station.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Essentially the whole route into the city is a bottleneck. Limebank/Riverside/Hunt Club all are subject to considerable congestion during peak periods. Express buses have been diverted on a much longer routing east of the airport, which is far from ideal. I cannot imagine another part of the city so poorly served by transit and several kms from the closest rapid transit station.

I'm still a bit confused. Isn't there a transitway up to bank and hunt club? I'm looking at google maps and don't see where the population is in that area. Is it from barhaven?

[lrt's friend]

I'm still a bit confused. Isn't there a transitway up to bank and hunt club? I'm looking at google maps and don't see where the population is in that area. Is it from barhaven?

It is on the east side of the Rideau River, opposite from Barrhaven. This is why there is talk of a $100M bridge.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Clearly, the airport parkway provides critical access to the airport. The city made a terrible mistake by turning it into a commuter route when they opened the Hunt Club ramps. What is the city going to do now that they have turned the parkway into a parking lot during peak hours? Clearly, light rail is now off the table for at least 20 years.

The NS LRT was supposed to lessen the need for an Airport Parkway twinning by diverting demand onto a parallel transit corridor. Then, when NS LRT was cancelled, the parkway twinning came back. Now, neither are planned for many years.

The south is getting the shaft big time in this plan. We need at minimum an extension of the O-Train to Leitrim as an interim measure. Anything less will not cut it.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It is on the east side of the Rideau River, opposite from Barrhaven. This is why there is talk of a $100M bridge.

! How can there not be a bridge?! Good luck finding $100M in Ottawa today though... I'll happily give you the (non-existent) money for the AVTC bridge to Nicholas.

[lrt's friend]

! How can there not be a bridge?! Good luck finding $100M in Ottawa today though... I'll happily give you the (non-existent) money for the AVTC bridge to Nicholas.

Don't worry about that, $40M will be spent for the AVTC bridge as well in increment 1, Phase 1, to keep the buses going into downtown, since we will have so little LRT built.

[lrt's friend]

The south is getting the shaft big time in this plan. We need at minimum an extension of the O-Train to Leitrim as an interim measure. Anything less will not cut it.

It is right in the report. No extension to the O-Train because it will interfere with longer term plans, because it is too costly to operate, and because it really doesn't help a lot with the trains not going downtown. I applaud this since it will just give them another excuse for further delaying a proper solution for the south-end.

[Richard Eade]

I am not sure I remember correctly, but hasn’t the re-building of the north portion of Bank made the sidewalks wider, leaving only a single lane in each direction? If so, I wonder what Staff is suggesting with the following: ( From Table 4 of the report.)

Bank Street
(Wellington to Highway 417)
Peak period bus lanes in both directions (7am-9am and 3:30pm-5:30pm) by prohibiting on-street parking during those periods

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Don't worry about that, $40M will be spent for the AVTC bridge as well in increment 1, Phase 1, to keep the buses going into downtown, since we will have so little LRT built.

I have been trying to think of an alternative to building a new bridge across the Rideau for the buses.

Buses will probably be allowed to use the new 417 lanes exclusively for a while, but the buses from the east will need to exit the 417 at Vanier and travel Riverside to get to Hurdman. I am assuming that all of the current buses will still go to Hurdman, but there is the option of shortening the routes of some Express buses to force a transfer at Blair or St Laurent. This would allow some buses to be 'Super Express' and by-pass Hurdman to just go straight downtown via 417 and Nicholas.

Access to Hurdman will still be a requirement for most buses so people can transfer south. Also, people need to transfer from the S-E Transitway onto the E Transitway somewhere.

Some buses running north on the S-E Transitway will need to get all the way downtown. These buses, and the ones from the east, which came down to Hurdman from the 417, would need to go back up to the 417 to get across the river.

The loop from the 417 to Hurdman and then back to the 417 makes for a slow detour. A bridge from Hurdman onto Nicholas is much more direct.

Can you think of any other solutions?

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It is on the east side of the Rideau River, opposite from Barrhaven. This is why there is talk of a $100M bridge.

I think you will find that in Table 15 of the report, only $48M is budgeted for the S/A Bridge. This might be supplemented by some of the $28M for the Transit lanes on the bridge from Table 12.

[Richard Eade]

Just a question:

Say you had bought land several years ago and gone through a design phase which was based on packing development around a promised train. Then the train was 'un-promised' and then proposed to be built maybe 20 years in the future.

Now lets say that the economy was turning south and you would like to get some of the money out of the land. You can quickly and cheaply build conventional homes, based on the existing road pattern.

Would you sit tight and hope for the train to maybe arrive so you can build the plan, or would you throw away the higher density plan and just fill the land with what you can sell now?

I ask this because I think that the new plan will force Urbandale to abandon the plan.

I would like to see the O-Train extended to Leitrim on the existing track ($45M) and then extended again on new track which is build as part of the future eLRT track - nothing throw-away - (~$60M). This would provide 15 minute service to the RSTC.

I think that just getting the track laid and 15 minute service would be a huge step forward and could lock in the higher density development.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The bus isn't working. Out of necessity, the bus route has to follow the most popular route, which is also the most congested. Most are choosing the car because it gives them the flexibility of trying to find less congested routes into the city, although not necessarily the shortest.

The bus isn't fast for anybody may I add. I used to take the 3, it stopped right in front of my building, and in front of my office. Then after it took me 45 minutes for a 5km trip. I walked 10 minutes to Carling, took the 101 to Hurdman, and a Transitway bus back DT, that took 35 minutes.

I don't sympathize with people living in the South, for the fact that service, besides on the Transitway, is lousy everywhere else. What about people taking the 2?

When I suggested taking the bus, is that the amount of people that would have ridden the LRT, wouldn't have made a dent in congestion. There can be dedicated buses lanes on another arterial corridor, or other solutions to be find. If they are planning to do bus priority on upper Bank St. they can can do it elsewhere.

Basically, there's need to be transit priority, and city hall needs to stop treating everyone the same.

[Deez]

Two more notes on the timing of increments in phase 1:

1) The old NS LRT environmental assessment has a finite shelf life (I can't remember how long that is, but it's not too long), so staff will do their darndest to ensure that increment 2 is initiated before that document expires.

2) The rationale for not widening the airport parkway to 4 lanes in Phase 1 that is in the report is that the NS LRT will be constructed as part of transit Phase 1. The report then states that the parkway twinning will be pushed back to 2016-2022, implying that increment 2 will be completed before then?