HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #341  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2008, 5:03 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,767
Quote:
I find it funny when they say that Ottawa is not big enough, when European cities with half the population have ten times the infrastructures we have. Maybe because Ottawa is such a city of losers?
I wholeheartedly agree with you on this. When I hear, light rail cannot run to the suburbs because there is not enough density, I say, nonsense. LRT does not have provide subway level of service to be successful. Just look at our own O-Train. Single car trains running every 15 minutes is perfectly fine for that particular situation. Many other cities do the same sort of thing and it is how they got a start in light rail. This city has been so innovative and successful with transit over the years. From the introduction of express buses in the 1970s, to the Transitway in the 1980s and 1990s and the O-Train in 2001. It is now losing its way and it is done so in an attempt to turn transit planning into a popularity contest. We have lost our focus in what is important, spending money to attract new riders to transit.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #342  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2008, 5:13 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,767
Quote:
Either way, they're both at the same situation, one needs a tunnel, and the other needs more rail links so. Edmonton didn't have such an influx of foreigners either. Only recently that Calgary has achieved such high ridership.
Edmonton has grown almost as quickly as Calgary. Yes, Calgary needs a tunnel but they continue to manage without the tunnel and they will continue to run without a tunnel for a while yet. It is the results. Calgary managed to build 3 LRT legs, with a fourth one to be started soon, while Edmonton is only now building its second leg. It is this and the ridership differences that are the valuable lessons. Hopefully, Ottawa will not make the same mistakes as Edmonton, but it looks like we are heading in that direction.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #343  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2008, 5:32 PM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
You will find that these are generally more than single track rail lines. Also, these commuter rail lines serve areas beyond the rapid transit network, such as the West Island part of Montreal. Commuter rail is pointless within areas already served by rapid transit, which in Ottawa, are areas served by the Transitways.

Not really... even for the new lines AMT is building, it's single tracked... There was supposed to be an O-Train expansion, based on the steps to be taken, but I guess city staff didn't want that either! Damn cheap projects!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #344  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2008, 5:33 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 11,596
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I return to the 'Tale of two Cities', Calgary and Edmonton. This is well documented. The city of Calgary decided to invest its transit dollars to deliver LRT to the people as quickly as possible. Edmonton on the other hand decided to invest in a downtown tunnel, and ran out of money and momentum because the system did not meet the needs of most of the population. The outcome has been dramatic. Ridership in Calgary is now 4 times what it is in Edmonton, and after 30 years of service, only now is Edmonton struggling to expand its LRT network. Have we learned from this experience as we continue to shrink the amount of rail that we will initially build?
Ridership in Calgary is 650% of that in Edmonton. In 2000, that gap was only Calgary carrying 512% of what Edmonton carried, so I guess the recent success isn't particularly 'recent'. (Calgary added 6 stations and around 13 Km of tack between 2000 and today). In ten years, the system length will have doubled. Edmonton will narrow the gap in 2010 when their south line opens, but by 2012, Calgary will have opened another 11 stations and 18km of track.

I would note that the main benefit is momentum and political will. In Calgary the fiscal conservative members on council are desperately pushing a $2 billion dollar SE LRT line, are some of the central boosters for TOD (it saves money compared to sprawl). The top four candidates in the last civic election all were big transit boosters (with a different take on priority to be sure). Transit consistently ranks as a higher priority for residents than roads.

I wouldn't see the huge cost of a tunnel now in Calgary as a problem, there is the will to spend the money, the question is when. One group wants the SE LRT first, (which includes a seperate downtown tunnel) while another wants the primary tunnel done first. Until then, the existing system can run with 4 car trains once the current round of renovations are done, increasing capacity by 33%.

It doesn't really matter really, since both will be done by 2025.

If only Ottawa was just now finishing off its first line...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #345  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2008, 5:40 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,767
Quote:
Not really... even for the new lines AMT is building, it's single tracked... There was supposed to be an O-Train expansion, based on the steps to be taken, but I guess city staff didn't want that either! Damn cheap projects!
Yes, but if they are building them, they are not shared track rail lines, right?
Nevertheless, if we are talking about Barrhaven or Kanata, or Orleans, 10 trains a day is not enough, when you already have 100 or more buses per day.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #346  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2008, 5:55 PM
waterloowarrior's Avatar
waterloowarrior waterloowarrior is offline
National Capital Region
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Eastern Ontario
Posts: 9,254
the staff report is up.. more details

they refer to this document
Options to Expand the Current O-Train Service to Provide Service on the Local VIA Route to Fallowfield – Technical Memo
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #347  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2008, 5:55 PM
Ciemny's Avatar
Ciemny Ciemny is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 130
Did anyone notice that on the Phase 1 roll out there does not seem to be a a connection between Piencrest and Lincon fields in the BRT lanes? Even through the end of Phase 1 there is no linkup on the city's plan for some reason, so they still not know how to proceed about constructing that piece of the transitway or are we going to keep using the 417 lanes untill God knows when.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #348  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2008, 5:57 PM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Yes, but if they are building them, they are not shared track rail lines, right?
Nevertheless, if we are talking about Barrhaven or Kanata, or Orleans, 10 trains a day is not enough, when you already have 100 or more buses per day.
Yes, they are for the main sections. It's just commuter rail was so successful, so they are adding it to another part of the city.

It's all a matter of time and ease of use. Some lines have only 2 trains a day, and yet the trains are full, only because they save 30 minutes on their trips. Anyways, we argued through this already, so need to conitnue.

Anyways, what's interesting in the report, even at the low speed that the Via trains are going now, the trains are still faster, albeit by 3 minutes.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #349  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2008, 6:04 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,767
Quote:
If only Ottawa was just now finishing off its first line...
haha!!!!! John Baird took a political gamble and won, by getting rid of a Liberal mayor and the light rail project that served adjacent non-Conservative ridings. It was interesting to see Bob Chiarelli speaking out for the first time, and comments yesterday on CFRA about many councillors wishing he was still mayor.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #350  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2008, 6:51 PM
harls's Avatar
harls harls is offline
Mooderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Aylmer, Québec
Posts: 21,408
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #351  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2008, 7:01 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,767
Interesting report. I noticed that while transit phasing was not really time lined other than the downtown tunnel was absolutely needed by 2018, there were time lines for road construction. I was amused by the comment that the airport parkway was being deferred to Phase 2 (2016-2022) because North-South LRT was going to be completed in Phase 1. Unfortunately, the LRT line was being deferred to Increment 2 and 3 at some unknown point beyond 2018. It could still end up that the airport parkway twinning could be built first. By the time any action is taken, access to the airport should be a nightmare.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #352  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2008, 7:08 PM
Suzie Suzie is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 245
Quote:
Originally Posted by waterloowarrior View Post
the staff report is up.. more details

they refer to this document
Options to Expand the Current O-Train Service to Provide Service on the Local VIA Route to Fallowfield – Technical Memo
Am I reading Table 11 on page 39 of the report correctly? It’s not clear, but I can only assume that the operating cost savings are expressed on an annual basis.

If so, it seems to suggest that, combined, the LRT segments would save $18.6M per year in operating costs – Blair to Tunney’s Pasture ($9.6M), Tunney’s Pasture to Baseline ($5M) and Bayview to Riverside South ($4M) – for a capital cost of $844M plus the $600M (not shown) for the tunnel. Combined, the BRT projects would save $16.5M per year in operating costs for a capital cost of $671M.

The results in the report seem to suggest that:

• The operating cost savings of the LRT itself are pretty modest.

• The best way to save on operating costs is to pursue the BRT extensions (or at least some of them).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #353  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2008, 8:37 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,767
Quote:
Am I reading Table 11 on page 39 of the report correctly? It’s not clear, but I can only assume that the operating cost savings are expressed on an annual basis.

If so, it seems to suggest that, combined, the LRT segments would save $18.6M per year in operating costs – Blair to Tunney’s Pasture ($9.6M), Tunney’s Pasture to Baseline ($5M) and Bayview to Riverside South ($4M) – for a capital cost of $844M plus the $600M (not shown) for the tunnel. Combined, the BRT projects would save $16.5M per year in operating costs for a capital cost of $671M.

The results in the report seem to suggest that:

• The operating cost savings of the LRT itself are pretty modest.

• The best way to save on operating costs is to pursue the BRT extensions (or at least some of them).

That seems to be what they are saying. You really have to look at this way, if you are building new right of way, you are going to move people faster and that saves money. With the Transitway additions, you are building new right of way. In the case of LRT, much of the right of way already exists, so time savings will be minimal. The savings you are getting from LRT are from labour savings by moving more passengers per operator. If you build LRT on a new right of way, you would expect more dramatic savings.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #354  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2008, 10:29 PM
AuxTown's Avatar
AuxTown AuxTown is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 4,613
Quote:
Originally Posted by harls View Post
I would like to see them extend the first phase of LRT to Westboro Station. It, like Tunney's, has access to Scott Street just West of the Transitway platform (which is what I imagine the buses will use during construction) and this extension will give the large transit population in Westboro access to the LRT without a transfer. It's not like it's a new ROW, they only need to extend the tracks along the trench a km or two.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #355  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2008, 2:12 AM
Deez's Avatar
Deez Deez is offline
you know my steez
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Toronto/Ottawa
Posts: 1,397
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Interesting report. I noticed that while transit phasing was not really time lined other than the downtown tunnel was absolutely needed by 2018, there were time lines for road construction. I was amused by the comment that the airport parkway was being deferred to Phase 2 (2016-2022) because North-South LRT was going to be completed in Phase 1. Unfortunately, the LRT line was being deferred to Increment 2 and 3 at some unknown point beyond 2018. It could still end up that the airport parkway twinning could be built first. By the time any action is taken, access to the airport should be a nightmare.
Three comments:

- I was also intrigued by the lack of timeline for transit implementation...I'm interested as to why this was done. Are staff putting this in the hands of council? Are they waiting to do some additional analysis before the final report? Are they waiting for funding announcements? Whatever the case may be, it was definitely intentional and not an oversight. IMO, the fact that the East, West and South LRT are all lumped into the vague "Phase 1" is a good thing in that it seems like there's general interest in getting it all built soon; however, I expect that the public and council will get bogged down in the semantics of options, scenarios, phases, and increments.

- (This is a reference to the Kent Kirkpatrick interview quoting 10 years to complete increment 1) Don't put much faith into what the city manager says. At that level of management, staff really don't know much more than councillors. They are only briefed about the bare essentials are often their statements turn out to be wrong.

- The Airport Parkway twinning was the pet project of a consultant at Delcan that has been working with the City/Region since the Neolithic era; basically he's a crotchety old road builder. As I understand it, he was in charge of identifying road infrastructure needs for this TMP and it was no surprise to me when this project popped up. I'm pleased that the public and council reacted so harshly to put him in his place.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #356  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2008, 2:41 AM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deez View Post
- The Airport Parkway twinning was the pet project of a consultant at Delcan that has been working with the City/Region since the Neolithic era; basically he's a crotchety old road builder. As I understand it, he was in charge of identifying road infrastructure needs for this TMP and it was no surprise to me when this project popped up. I'm pleased that the public and council reacted so harshly to put him in his place.
LOL, way to confirm my impressions.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #357  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2008, 1:48 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,767
Quote:
Transit future rides on many unknowns

By SUSAN SHERRING


The ghost of the city's former light-rail plan continues to haunt city council.

But the broken contract is just one of the concerns over plans for a $4.7-billion project to bring light rail to the nation's capital.

Yesterday, a series of potential risks compiled by consultant Brian Bourns with KPMG, warned councillors the city's reputation precedes it -- and that could impede companies from bidding on the project.

"The outcome of the north-south line will impact the number who bid on your project, particularly if there are other projects out there to bid on," said Bourns, himself a former city councillor.

Bourns said risk assessment studies are becoming more commonplace. And while there are many potential risks detailed in his report, that doesn't mean the project shouldn't proceed. There are ways to mitigate those risks.

In an interview with the Sun, Mayor Larry O'Brien said the risk factors don't deter him.

" One of the things I wanted is a list of challenges you have to overcome, threats to what we want to achieve, things that can bite you in the ass that you have to be aware of.

"I don't think any of them were terminal, except for choosing the wrong system. That's a mistake you can't afford to make. You have to keep track of everything that could cause a problem," O'Brien said.

That certainly makes sense.

HIDDEN COSTS

Still, the list of risk factors can't help but cause concern.

For starters, this city has only estimated the cost of the mega-project.

"Project costing was performed at a very high level -- program is conceptual, no designs available," the report says.

"Review determined that estimates prepared are reasonable for the level of information available, suggesting contingencies added are conservative, and the engineering and project management costs may be underestimated."

In addition, the cost of the land has not been included in the project cost estimates.

Of course, land was already purchased for the cancelled north-south route -- causing continued frustration for supporters of the last plan.

The list of unknowns continue. For example, according to the KPMG report, "The excavation for the downtown tunnel stations, required station excavation and construction more vulnerable to problems requires specialized skills and mining techniques."

And a big one -- while the plan relies on using the Ottawa Parkway -- the National Capital Commission hasn't even come close to saying it will allow that.

The spin yesterday suggested it was good news that while they hadn't said yes, they hadn't said no.

There are two options if the parkway is eventually turned down -- Byron and Carling. Both options are more expensive. Byron twice the cost, Carling, four times.

There are unknowns surrounding utility relocations, the risk of rising costs to meet the possibility of more restrictive environmental issues, and concerns over securing land and property rights.

There's also the issue of disrupting service during construction, and the worry about losing riders over that time -- which could be lengthy.

Not done yet.

There are Transport Canada railway regulations to contend with, inflation worries -- especially given that construction costs can increase faster than others -- and then there's the fluctuating exchange rate.

And with other cities also building light-rail systems, competition for companies is expected to increase.

Don't forget, the federal and provincial governments haven't committed beyond their $200 million.

(Think north-south and you could be thinking deja vu all over again.)

"The $4.7 billion will increase," Bourns said, estimating a 10% increase.

"In the worst-case scenario, everything will go wrong, and then there's a slight chance nothing will go wrong," he added.

O'Brien said he feels good about the future of LRT.

"Yeah, it's two years later, but I believe we have a plan that will survive the test of time.

"The public has spoken."
We need to build as much LRT in the first phase 'increment', since the risks described above could bring LRT expansion to a grinding halt for years if costs for the tunnel significantly exceed estimates and ridership growth does not meet expectations. Put Transitway expansion on hold and build more LRT while we can.

Quote:
Water with your wine

The Ottawa Citizen


Wednesday, November 12, 2008


Could it be that our city -- its municipal staff, politicians and residents -- is finally getting it? That rather than building a sprawling, inefficient urban area, we are moving toward a compact, transit-oriented community?

The latest in a string of transportation plans gives us hope. Not that we haven't had optimism before and had it dashed when reality met the good ideas of official plans. Will this dissonance continue? We will see.

The good words are there, again. There is talk of fewer roads though part of the plan is to build the Strandherd Bridge under the guise that it will carry buses. Well of course it will carry buses, but it is far from a transit bridge. Reality says it is for cars. Let's be honest.

There are problems with the new transit plan. The costing is vague. There are fears that the rail tunnel might suck up all the money for light rail. As well, the financial problems of the municipality do not stand separate from this rail plan. The time-line stretches into 2031 or later, far too long. The project is front-loaded with inefficient Transitway buses.

One-third of the western line is planned to be built along the National Capital Commission Ottawa River Parkway. The NCC has grave reservations about this route. So do others. The river line does not have business or people along it, thus diminishing ridership. The economic development (commercial, retail, residential) that occurs along a light-rail line cannot happen on parkland, costing us good business, wealth and jobs. A speedy Carling Avenue route makes better economic and transit sense. But we will not stand in front of a parkway train if the entire project depends on using the Ottawa River lands.

The bright side of the economic downturn, if there is such a thing, is that there is much talk of infrastructure spending to spur business and create jobs. Our cities are likely to benefit from this at a time when there is a huge infrastructure deficit. It is refreshing to see economic necessity meet with practical needs such as improved sewage works and safe bridges.

Of course, we have seen much talk at city hall of smart growth, but little action. Had the city proceeded with the original north-south plan, trains would be operating from Barrhaven to the University of Ottawa next year and we would be discussing an east-west line right now, as good light rail was about to begin (and where it will eventually be built) -- rather than without light rail at all.

The time for talk ended many years ago. It is time for action to follow the good words we're now hearing on transit. The biggest deficit we have at city hall is not money, but leadership. We cannot allow faulty decision-making -- federal, provincial and municipal -- to fail Ottawa on transit again. We must have light rail.

© The Ottawa Citizen 2008
A luke warm endorsement from the Ottawa Citizen reflecting an increasing weariness of many Ottawans with the lack of progress on rapid transit.

I think many Ottawans are sick and tired of all of this and wonder why it still requires 10 more years to see tangible results, and all we get is only 12 kms of track. An enormous price tag for so little results.

And there is one more risk not mentioned. What happens if the people of Orleans don't find a transfer to LRT at Blair an improvement and they become vocal about it? There is a big difference between a couple of bus routes being truncated at Hurdman and some of those passengers grumbling about it, and having thousands facing something similar. I am not saying it will happen, but it is a legitimate risk.

Last edited by lrt's friend; Nov 12, 2008 at 2:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #358  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2008, 2:03 PM
highdensitysprawl's Avatar
highdensitysprawl highdensitysprawl is offline
Highrise
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deez View Post

- The Airport Parkway twinning was the pet project of a consultant at Delcan that has been working with the City/Region since the Neolithic era; basically he's a crotchety old road builder. As I understand it, he was in charge of identifying road infrastructure needs for this TMP and it was no surprise to me when this project popped up. I'm pleased that the public and council reacted so harshly to put him in his place.
Would this be the same consulting firm that was front and centre in front of Council trying to argue that price should not be the determining factor in awarding City contracts.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #359  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2008, 2:30 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,767
Clearly, the airport parkway provides critical access to the airport. The city made a terrible mistake by turning it into a commuter route when they opened the Hunt Club ramps. What is the city going to do now that they have turned the parkway into a parking lot during peak hours? Clearly, light rail is now off the table for at least 20 years.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #360  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2008, 3:32 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,767
An interesting thing that I noticed in the transit report. The requirement for extension of LRT to Barrhaven, Orleans and Kanata, has nothing to do with overall community density or population, but instead it is based only on the density of the town centres. There is also a great variation in the size of the Town Centres defined for each suburb, which will greatly affect how quickly the required density can be achieved. It seems to me that this requirement is rather arbitrary, and assumes that demand for light rail will not be affected by the overall population of the community. It also seems to me that we are getting into another chicken and eggs debate. Light rail demands density, but light rail can be a tool to create density. In fact, the lack of light rail may prevent the required density from evolving. It is also interesting that this same argument is not being applied to Riverside South, where the same analysis is not being performed. I do agree that the circumstances and transportation requirements are different in Riverside South, but one has to wonder whether this town centre density requirement is really more about reducing expectations for light rail in Barrhaven, Kanata, and Orleans because the city simply cannot afford to extend service there. Of course, LRT to Barrhaven Town Centre is clearly affordable based on the specs of the cancelled project. Light rail through Baseline Station is going to be a very expensive proposition given the missing links in the Transitway. We already have an enormous price estimate for a very short section of Transitway just south of Baseline Station, a price per km similar to building the downtown tunnel.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 4:24 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.