Interprovincial bridge crossing discussion

[Coho]

Is anyone expecting that all truck traffic will automatically transfer over to the new bridge? I don't think so. But it won't hurt to have another crossing over the river to help better disperse some of the traffic at least.

It's like the traffic backlogs caused by the limited bridges across the Rideau.. more bridges = better traffic flows because they aren't all being funnelled across the handful of crossings at Hogs Back, Hunt Club, Strandherd, etc.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Coho

Is anyone expecting that all truck traffic will automatically transfer over to the new bridge? I don't think so. But it won't hurt to have another crossing over the river to help better disperse some of the traffic at least.

It's like the traffic backlogs caused by the limited bridges across the Rideau.. more bridges = better traffic flows because they aren't all being funnelled across the handful of crossings at Hogs Back, Hunt Club, Strandherd, etc.

All the large rigs, certainly.

[dougvdh]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Sheffield Road is immediately off the Aviation Parkway-417 corridor. I suppose you are referring to Shefford Road.
. . .

Correct, thanks for the correction.

The industrial centre of Gatineau seems to be slowly migrating east from the traditional area around the Casino, so the north end arriving near the airport makes sense. Plus it avoid sending trucks down the long residential hill that is Monte Paiement.

On the south end, the section between the split and downtown is going to be a mess either way. Moving the south highway connection further east would reduce the complexity of the overpass infrastructure. Plus it might also finally provoke some employment land development in the east end of Ottawa.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

All the large rigs, certainly.

Nope that's not the plan. It will end up about what we have now with the growth going to the new route.

The truck diversion is mostly a diversion. The real goal is to knit the region together better and add cross border capacity and since it's really only at rush hour and sure during the marathon that we need more capacity and since it's only Quebec to Ottawa commuters at that this is designed to get more Quebecers to work in Ontario. Good for unity. Bad for Ottawa taxpayers.

I'm not sure of the status of this in reality. Are the feds now paying for it all and Ontario and Ottawa have agreed?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by golfguy9

Am I the only one who thinks building a bridge to relieve truck traffic in an urban congested area (Rideau) and put it in a similarly constrained area (Aviation Parkway) to be crazy? Obviously this is for more than just truck traffic but when I think of major thoroughfare, I don't think of the parkway. Unless I'm missing something.

The current route has semi trucks navigating through narrow urban streets. Thousands of trucks going by tens of thousands of apartment units. That turn from King Edward to Rideau and then Rideau to Waller are insane and have caused several deaths over the years.

The new route is straight (no turns) from A50 to the 417. On the Ottawa side, there's a green buffer between the Aviation Parkway and nearby homes and institutions.

It's less ideal on the Gatineau side since some homes are on Monte Paiement, but it's far less problematic than the Ottawa situation now and easier to mitigate (one option seems to give existing housing their own minor street running parallel to Monte Paiement).

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

I understand that its a major residential (low density) zone, but the parkway is always pretty much empty when I drive on it. Is it congested during rush hour? I think the point is to remove the truck traffic from urban high(est) density, including a high volume of pedestrian traffic, and place it where there will be less direct impact. A bridge and highway will ALWAYS affect someone, but in this location, there are fewer people.

Some congestion at the southern end as you approach the 417 split, but that's it.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It seems to me that the Aviation corridor gives better access to a bilingual hospital, a French language college, a large federal employment area as well multiple east end industrial parks and connects directly to Highway 417 going east. Why do we want to dump extra traffic onto the already congested section of the 174 between Orleans and the Split?

There is value in locating a transportation corridor where it is more useful despite being more urban, and actually partly because it is more urban. More useful to more people.

That's my thought as well. It's a far better corridor if the goal is to also improve transit connections between key nodes on both sides of the river.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I'm not sure of the status of this in reality. Are the feds now paying for it all and Ontario and Ottawa have agreed?

Doug Ford was giddy about the prospect of a new highway, cause it's Doug Ford. I don't think he knew about the project before or really knows much about it even now, but he won't stop it, unlike the previous Provincial Liberal Government who pulled their support to back the NIMBYs.

Ultimately, I assume the Feds will pay for it all. They paid everything for Gordie Howe and I believe they paid everything for the new Champlain Bridge in Montreal.

[Richard Eade]

Except, according the U.S.A. ambassador to Canada, Hoekstra, The Canadian Government didn’t PAY for the Gordie Howe Bridge – it just acts as the bank that put up the money for the construction. In his view, since the Canadian Government will retrieve the money through tolls, it is the people crossing the bridge which will wind up paying for the bridge, not the Canadian Government.

The Champlain Bridge in Montreal is different. Although the Harper Government was planning to charge a toll to recoup the cost, the Trudeau Government removed the idea of a toll. Thus, the Canadian Government did pay the entire cost of the new Champlain Bridge.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Except, according the U.S.A. ambassador to Canada, Hoekstra, The Canadian Government didn’t PAY for the Gordie Howe Bridge – it just acts as the bank that put up the money for the construction. In his view, since the Canadian Government will retrieve the money through tolls, it is the people crossing the bridge which will wind up paying for the bridge, not the Canadian Government.

Really twisted way of saying that. That's the entire basis of capitalism; someone pays to build something to be able to provide a product or service to eventually recoup the investment and make a profit. When Canada does that though, it's bad.

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

The Champlain Bridge in Montreal is different. Although the Harper Government was planning to charge a toll to recoup the cost, the Trudeau Government removed the idea of a toll. Thus, the Canadian Government did pay the entire cost of the new Champlain Bridge.

Yeah, if you toll one bridge, you kind of have to toll all bridges. Unless you have an amazing transit system, it's hard to justify. Wonder if the Feds could toll just the semis, charge a higher toll on Macdonald Cartier and Chaudière to encourage the use of Kettle. Chaudière though should really be removed a trucking route since it now goes through an urban neighborhood. I mean, so does Macdonald Cartier, but at least the bridge isn't part of the urban neighbourhood. That King Edward tunnel should still be built eventually.

[Kitchissippi]

I think the federal government paid for the Champlain bridge because it goes over the St Lawrence Seaway, which in a sense is an international facility.

I personally think this Kettle Island bridge will create more problems than it will "solve". They'll have to limit access to Montreal Road (maybe just exit from northbound and enter to southbound) and no access to GEC parkway, otherwise, these roads will just get clogged up with Gatineau commuters taking shortcuts. Basically the Airport Parkway corridor becomes a 10km traffic sewer between Quebec and the 417 with very little use to the surrounding area.

If trucks are truly the issue here, my radical solution would be A) Build a link between A5 and A50 (this could actually address some traffic issues in Gatineau in general), and B) Build a bridge out in the east past Petrie island where the gap between the A50 and 174 is narrow, and link it to Frank Kenny Road which is a proper truck route with wide shoulders all the way to the 417.



Insert Ottawa Bypass/Ring Road and Bob's your uncle.

[harls]

The land is still mostly available for that 5-50 shortcut as well. Same for the corridor thru Aylmer (which will probably never happen in all honesty).

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by harls

The land is still mostly available for that 5-50 shortcut as well. Same for the corridor thru Aylmer (which will probably never happen in all honesty).

Unless they bore a tunnel under Gatineau Park, I'm not interested.

Could still do that A50-A5 link Kitchissippi is proposing, along with a 416 to Alum link.

[urbanforest]

It boggles my mind that the intention is not to bar trucks from King Edward after this bridge is built.

Does anyone know if there would be a legal reason that the City of Ottawa couldn’t simply ban trucks from King Edward/Nicholas/St. Patrick after this bridge is built?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by urbanforest

It boggles my mind that the intention is not to bar trucks from King Edward after this bridge is built.

Does anyone know if there would be a legal reason that the City of Ottawa couldn’t simply ban trucks from King Edward/Nicholas/St. Patrick after this bridge is built?

My only guess would be to allow trucks that have business within Downtown Ottawa.

[dougvdh]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

My only guess would be to allow trucks that have business within Downtown Ottawa.

Which is a fairly high portion of the existing truck traffic. Banning trucks from Chaudiere and KE would also create some very significant detours from trucks travelling from the industrial areas around the QC5 to the 417 west and 416.

I think people need to keep in mind that this new corridor will replace the existing KE corridor and it's 11 signalized intersections with a new longer corridor with 12 to 14 signalized intersections (depending on what the plan is for SGEC and CMHC.) And for vehicles travelling westbound, particularly in the am period, will introduce significant delay due to traffic congestion between the merge with the 417 and the King Edward exit.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by dougvdh

Which is a fairly high portion of the existing truck traffic. Banning trucks from Chaudiere and KE would also create some very significant detours from trucks travelling from the industrial areas around the QC5 to the 417 west and 416.

I think people need to keep in mind that this new corridor will replace the existing KE corridor and it's 11 signalized intersections with a new longer corridor with 12 to 14 signalized intersections (depending on what the plan is for SGEC and CMHC.) And for vehicles travelling westbound, particularly in the am period, will introduce significant delay due to traffic congestion between the merge with the 417 and the King Edward exit.

Has there been a study of where truck traffic is destined?

The point is to get unnecessary truck traffic out of downtown.

The side benefit (and I would argue an even more important benefit) is to improve overall connectivity of the city.

It is also possible to remove unnecessary private vehicles running through downtown that will have a more direct route between east Gatineau and east Ottawa and a less congested route from Gatineau to Highway 417 east.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

My only guess would be to allow trucks that have business within Downtown Ottawa.

I can't see why anything with more than four wheels/above a specified weight couldn't be banned.

[dougvdh]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Has there been a study of where truck traffic is destined?

The point is to get unnecessary truck traffic out of downtown.

The side benefit (and I would argue an even more important benefit) is to improve overall connectivity of the city.

It is also possible to remove unnecessary private vehicles running through downtown that will have a more direct route between east Gatineau and east Ottawa and a less congested route from Gatineau to Highway 417 east.

It's here: https://www.ssd-ottawa.ca/interprovincial-truck-studies

6% of existing truck traffic is long distance through traffic.

Anticipated diversion is 40%, with the remaining 60% having KE as the shorter router between origin and destination.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The side benefit (and I would argue an even more important benefit) is to improve overall connectivity of the city.

It is also possible to remove unnecessary private vehicles running through downtown that will have a more direct route between east Gatineau and east Ottawa and a less congested route from Gatineau to Highway 417 east.

100%. It's a pain to have to go through Downtown anytime I need to go to the east side of the Gatineau River. There's a significant amount of students, worker and patients that make that huge detour to get to east end Federal complexes, La Cité and Montfort.

It's not just for trucks, but to reduce congestion through Downtown.

For the truck traffic, we can encourage the use of Kettle with tolls; put higher tolls on MC than Kettle and Bob's you're uncle. I would not toll passenger cars because we don't have a good, reliable transit alternative.

[lrt's friend]

imagine a new Rapibus route crossing the new bridge, connecting to the Montfort Hospital , the various federal facilities and Blair Station. A monumental improvement in transit connectivity. This will cut transit travel times to and from the east half of Gatineau by two thirds or more making transit a viable commute for many people and getting cars off the MC bridge and many Ottawa streets going to the east end.

A Kettle Island crossing has always been a no brainer. Just make it a beautiful bridge, a landmark, and make it for everybody, not just truckers. Even strategic viewing locations over the river for pedestrians and cyclists. It should have the best lighting of any Ottawa bridge that can have light shows

I want it to be a wow, not an ugly freeway bridge

Regarding truck studies, this is a reflection of past behaviour. Some trucks may experience longer. travel times, others will benefit. Give out electronic permits to trucks destined for central Ottawa allowing free crossing of the MC bridge otherwise a high electronic toll or an even higher fine for abusers. Signs would be posted that an electronic transponder is required for a truck over a certain size to cross the bridge and cameras to catch abusers.

In the longer term, eliminate one traffic lane on King Edward in each direction and turn it into a grand allee. A big 'Welcome to Ottawa' LED sign overhanging King Edward after coming off the MC bridge instead of those speed cameras that were p*ssing everybody off.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

imagine a new Rapibus route crossing the new bridge, connecting to the Montfort Hospital , the various federal facilities and Blair Station. A monumental improvement in transit connectivity. This will cut transit travel times to and from the east half of Gatineau by two thirds or more making transit a viable commute for many people and getting cars off the MC bridge and many Ottawa streets going to the east end.

A Kettle Island crossing has always been a no brainer. Just make it a beautiful bridge, a landmark, and make it for everybody, not just truckers. Even strategic viewing locations over the river for pedestrians and cyclists. It should have the best lighting of any Ottawa bridge that can have light shows

I want it to be a wow, not an ugly freeway bridge

Regarding truck studies, this is a reflection of past behaviour. Some trucks may experience longer. travel times, others will benefit. Give out electronic permits to trucks destined for central Ottawa allowing free crossing of the MC bridge otherwise a high electronic toll or an even higher fine for abusers. Signs would be posted that an electronic transponder is required for a truck over a certain size to cross the bridge and cameras to catch abusers.

In the longer term, eliminate one traffic lane on King Edward in each direction and turn it into a grand allee. A big 'Welcome to Ottawa' LED sign overhanging King Edward after coming off the MC bridge instead of those speed cameras that were p*ssing everybody off.

THIS! All of THIS!!

[dougvdh]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

. . . I would not toll passenger cars because we don't have a good, reliable transit alternative.

If we tolled passenger cars, maybe we could pay for a good reliable transit alternative?