National Defence HQ (Carling) | 60 Moodie Drive [former Nortel campus]

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Unlike most people, those of us in uniform move jobs every 2-3 years and cities every 3-5 years.

I fail to see the relevance. I found a car-pool arrangement for my first suburban job in Ottawa within days of arriving, in the pre-internet era.

I've worked at four different locations in the last three years across different parts of the city. Carling, Gatineau, Star Top and Coventry. I've walked when I can. Carpooled when I can. I drive to Carling cause the other options genuinely suck. The idea that people are just not trying hard enough to car pool is beyond offensive to me.

Do you drive alone?

Have you offered yourself out as The Driver in a shared-ride arrangement?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Even if you have no respect for the uniform and just lump them in with the rest of the civil servants the idea they should carpool is kind of silly.

What's silly about it?

This is a very suburban location and of course it's far more convenient to drive. Classic Ottawa do as I say not as I'd do by everyone making decisions.

The fact that it's a suburban location and convenient to drive to is exactly the thing that makes it a prime use-case for carpooling.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Do you drive alone?

Have you offered yourself out as The Driver in a shared-ride arrangement?

Yes. And I do that because we're a one car family where I drop my kid and wife off on the way, and pick them both up after on the way home.

But let me now hear about how I am a terrible person for this......

My last two locations, my wife kept the car and I walked (Star Top) or took transit (Coventry). Before that at Asticou I car pooled (colleague drove) and took transit to LSTL across from the Casino. In my time in Ottawa after posting in 2019, this is the first time I am driving to work.

You act as though people enjoy driving to work and want to do it. Nope. I don't enjoy paying $75/mo for parking and then spending several hundred dollars more for gas and maintenance just to get to work. I drive because taking transit would literally take an extra 2.5 hrs out of my day.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Yes. And I do that because we're a one car family where I drop my kid and wife off on the way, and pick them both up after on the way home.

The fact that carpooling isn't for you is not an argument against carpooling being part of the solution for the Carling campus, though.

But let me now hear about how I am a terrible person for this......

Is there some reason you're taking any of this as a personal attack? What am I missing?

You act as though people enjoy driving to work and want to do it.

I have no idea what you mean by that. Literally no idea. None.

[BlackRedGold]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

One of the most annoying things for public servants is that some get to work in spots where there is no charge for parking and some who work downtown are paying upwards of $280 a month - even downtown Gatineau is running $200+ a month...

This isn't true. Name a federal office in the NCR that has free parking..

I know that there was an out of the core office about 20 years ago that had free parking but due to complaints from other public servants, there was a monthly charge instituted.

Also, those downtown with high parking prices have the best transit options and tons of nearby amenities while somewhere like the DND offices on Carling have poor transit and no nearby amenities.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Sure. But that preference has absolutely changed over time. Especially as housing has gone up in time. Your 40 and 50 something friends who are higher up in the CAF absolutely do not have the same experience as 20 and 30 somethings new to the CAF posted here on their first or second tour.

That is true, at least in terms of rank. Everyone that I know well started as an officer, though I was under the impression that those higher ranks are disproportionately concentrated at headquarters. For every one of them the overwhelming preference was to be posted here from the beginning of their careers versus Toronto or Winnipeg or Borden or Gagetown (there were obviously a few attractive postings elsewhere). Of course the workforce in Ottawa will tend to have more people who want to be here.

The absolute disdain y'all have is only going to grow this trend. Keep treating complaints like this one as simply just that of ignorant plebes. You don't think this is going to impact you. But I'll take that bet. Today's angry LT is tomorrow's angry LCOL who will be remembering how bad that experience when he/she is tasked to set up a new unit or capability as a project director.

Correct. But it's the military who always gets the short end of the stick because when we show up at a building, we go to to the bottom of the pile for things like parking because "seniority". You could have 25 years in the CAF. But you don't have 25 days at the building as far as parking is concerned. Which is exactly why it's the military folks that are most vocal on this.

And you can think this an idle threat. Whatever. We literally now have internal policies that literally require extra justification to set up in Ottawa. We even have a nice excuse and term for it. "Aggregation risk". Growth is absolutely being directed away from the NCR. If you're happy to encourage that, so be it.

I don't think "disdain" is a fair characterization of the sentiment here. From what I've read, it's more a case of people questioning whether the military has considered all alternatives before paving over greenspace for parking. Whatever the frustrations with the City and OC Transpo, those are still legitimate questions of the military or any other large organization.

In terms of priority for parking going to civilians, that sounds like an internal issue to the military. You don't have to allocate parking on the basis of seniority in a particular location - that sounds like an outdated policy and a bit of an own goal.

I'm assuming that you aren't saying that the direction of growth outside of Ottawa due to "aggregation risk" is related to parking. So you are talking about general recruiting issues due to cost of living? I'm not sure I am understanding the connection.

[Marshsparrow]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

20 years ago I worked at Pearkes (101 Colonel By). Never heard anybody complaining about taking transit to get there. Was just understood this is the norm for a downtown office. And even today, we tend to look at people who drive to those offices as oddballs who must have money to burn. Carling is just unusual for how bad it is.

Yeah cause transit in 2026 compared to 2006 is SOOOO much better in Ottawa... how did I mistake that one.

[Marshsparrow]

Originally Posted by BlackRedGold

This isn't true. Name a federal office in the NCR that has free parking..

I know that there was an out of the core office about 20 years ago that had free parking but due to complaints from other public servants, there was a monthly charge instituted.

Also, those downtown with high parking prices have the best transit options and tons of nearby amenities while somewhere like the DND offices on Carling have poor transit and no nearby amenities.

RCMP in Barrhaven - there's one.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Is there some reason you're taking any of this as a personal attack? What am I missing?

You literally asked me if I drive alone.

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

The fact that carpooling isn't for you is not an argument against carpooling being part of the solution for the Carling campus, though.

You seem to ignore that it's not a solution that scales effectively. We aren't talking about a few dozen people. We're talking about synchronizing hundreds to thousands in a place with massive variability, where people literally post in and out every summer.

Originally Posted by phil235

That is true, at least in terms of rank. Everyone that I know well started as an officer, though I was under the impression that those higher ranks are disproportionately concentrated at headquarters.

For every general you know, there's a staff of 30-40 under his command doing all the staff work to keep that general informed and put their decisions into place. And then there's enlisted personnel doing everything from driving vehicles, to admin to IT. We have Privates in the Orderly Room doing admin who make sixty something thousand. $75/mo is a much bigger deal to that person than me. This is exactly the point raised in the article above, where the intelligence community was questioning posting younger and lower paid personnel to Ottawa, possibly risking compromise because of their economic situation. If it starts getting hard enough to sustain those folks, at some point, we need to start asking if that General and his staff should be moved out.

Originally Posted by phil235

I don't think "disdain" is a fair characterization of the sentiment here. From what I've read, it's more a case of people questioning whether the military has considered all alternatives before paving over greenspace for parking. Whatever the frustrations with the City and OC Transpo, those are still legitimate questions of the military or any other large organization.

I think disdain is appropriate. How else would you describe over a decade of failure to provide adequate transit services (which were promised) and then this uproar over paving baseball diamonds to solve a decade long failure?

Originally Posted by phil235

I'm assuming that you aren't saying that the direction of growth outside of Ottawa due to "aggregation risk" is related to parking. So you are talking about general recruiting issues due to cost of living? I'm not sure I am understanding the connection.

Sure "aggregation risk" doesn't have anything to do with Ottawa. But now it's a convenient clause for literally any Project Director or Manager to invoke if he/she doesn't want to build their capability here. Say the magic words and you can go elsewhere.

On cost, I was responding to the preposterous idea that simply jacking up the rate to $150 would solve the problem. I guess in a sense it's right. Just create enough of a personnel shortage that you don't need more parking. Creative thinking from this forum.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

RCMP in Barrhaven - there's one.

And several of the smaller DND facilities or the less accessible ones. Like Leitrim, Uplands, the reserve units, former National Defence Medical Centre, etc.

Nobody would be complaining if transit access was adequate. The anger (which was literally cited in the article) has arisen because:

1) Over a decade of failure to provide adequate transit.
2) Insufficient parking after paying.

This feels a lot like a forced tax on working.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

What other employer in Kanata or Bell's Corners or Nepean charges their employees $75/mo to park? And then doesn't guarantee a parking spot? Any private sector employee would find this kind of charge ridiculously laughable. It's only acceptable because we are government employees and have no other alternative.

Yes agreed and the $75 is possibly above the market price but it is well below the supply and demand price. If it was doubled and put towards free transit for some or free parking if you carpool it would even out.

But I agree these arguments are emlematic of the public servant hatred even on this thread let alone outside the Ottawa buble. The normal answer is provide enough parking for everyone when you have a suburban office.

Originally Posted by BlackRedGold

This isn't true. Name a federal office in the NCR that has free parking..

I know that there was an out of the core office about 20 years ago that had free parking but due to complaints from other public servants, there was a monthly charge instituted.

Also, those downtown with high parking prices have the best transit options and tons of nearby amenities while somewhere like the DND offices on Carling have poor transit and no nearby amenities.

I think the parking rate is set on a market rate so if it's surrounded by free on street parking they set the market price at zero. There were such locations at least immediatley pre Covid

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes agreed and the $75 is possibly above the market price but it is well below the supply and demand price. If it was doubled and put towards free transit for some or free parking if you carpool it would even out.

But I agree these arguments are emlematic of the public servant hatred even on this thread let alone outside the Ottawa buble. The normal answer is provide enough parking for everyone when you have a suburban office.

And they have evidence to move on. Clearly the assumed uptake of transit when the campus was originally planned didn't happen. And OC Transpo is broadly failing further, with little to no forecast improvement. Moodie's opening will only make a marginal dent in transit demand (for the various reasons I have mentioned upthread). If the priors are updated, the plan should be too. They don't need a 1:1 parking provision. But the current 50% is clearly far too low. I would guess they probably should have it in the 60-70% range.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I think the parking rate is set on a market rate so if it's surrounded by free on street parking they set the market price at zero. There were such locations at least immediatley pre Covid

As mentioned above, there are still DND locations which don't charge. And bizarrely some of them are even decently served by transit. It's usually just a question of whether there are enough people working there to make it worthwhile to contract out parking management. So this is basically, mostly about the larger locations (Carling, Coventry, Start Top, LSTL, Montfort Hospital, National Printing Bureau, etc.). If you're at any reserve unit or say Leitrim or Uplands or the former National Defence Medical Centre there's no parking issues.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You seem to ignore that it's not a solution that scales effectively. We aren't talking about a few dozen people. We're talking about synchronizing hundreds to thousands in a place with massive variability, where people literally post in and out every summer.

No one has to "synchronize" anything. Some social nudges in the form of slight benefits, and people will self-organize if it works for them.

It wouldn't have to be mandatory, or expected to be a complete solution.

Fun question: when was the last time a local media article on the transportation situation at Carling mentioned car pooling?

Fun answer.

[Truenorth00]

So your complaint is about the media coverage I guess?

Cause as a policy carpooling is already covered. You can move up the list if you show a genuine carpool.

But this isn't widely taken up because it's just not really that feasible for most who work here.

The campus needs a parking ratio that is closer to what every other employer in Kanata has.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

So your complaint is about the media coverage I guess?

Only to the extent that the media coverage, like the debate elsewhere, is downplaying ride-sharing as part of the solution.

Cause as a policy carpooling is already covered. You can move up the list if you show a genuine carpool.

Maybe they should sweeten the pot.

But this isn't widely taken up because it's just not really that feasible for most who work here.

It doesn't need to be feasible for "most who work here". But I also call BS on the claims that it's somehow so difficult for everyone, because it isn't.

There has been a culture change in driver-commuters in the past two or three decades. There are consequences to that.

The campus needs a parking ratio that is closer to what every other employer in Kanata has.

Nonsense.