CFL in the Maritimes

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

But, looking at elly and someones comments, I get the impression that they think it a daft concept that Moncton would consider getting a CFL team ever, at any time, even into the far future. I find this vaguely insulting.

I don't mean for it to be insulting and I don't know what will happen, but this is basically how I look at it:

- Halifax was on the small side for the CFL a couple decades ago, and is just now getting to where it's a more standard-sized market, but there are roadblocks (like a stadium and maybe long-term CFL popularity)
- Moncton is a significantly smaller city than even 1985 Halifax.
- 2 teams to some degree cannibalize each other in the region, so Moncton either will be #2 or has the uphill battle of "start with the smaller city, maybe cripple the potentially larger market"

I think the rivalry thing is real sometimes but it doesn't seem common to do expansion of leagues in pairs of teams. It's a real stretch to say that there isn't a strong enough argument for 1 team, but 2 teams will work due to a rivalry.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

But, looking at elly and someones comments, I get the impression that they think it a daft concept that Moncton would consider getting a CFL team ever, at any time, even into the far future. I find this vaguely insulting.

Ay some point in time Moncton will be big enough, The city has a strong football culture (despite someone's disbelief). This is the most important thing is ensuring the success of a Moncton based team. In 30-40 years all we will need is an ownership group and a proper stadium. I think it will eventually happen.

I don't recall ever saying anything like that and if I did say something like "never will have a team" I meant it in the context of the city still being the same size.

Obviously if the city got significantly bigger there would be more resources to pave the way.

You seem to be saying that in 30-40 years it could happen in Moncton and others are saying that Halifax with a much larger population it won't happen for 20-30 years.

I've always said ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE, but in the case of Moncton, right here, right now, contrary to a very few here, I am saying it is not possible.

I think some people here think that this is some kind of CPL/CEBL like league. It is a much bigger entity. You pretty much have to be a billionaire to get into the club. At one time I was going to post bios of the ownership groups, maybe I should get back on that

[elly63]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think the rivalry thing is real sometimes but it doesn't seem common to do expansion of leagues in pairs of teams. It's a real stretch to say that there isn't a strong enough argument for 1 team, but 2 teams will work due to a rivalry.

Agreed, that comment is ridiculous.

There is a reason why the team has always been called Atlantic. That is because there is a justifiable belief that the team needs the additional province(s) to succeed over the long haul.

Theoretically Halifax is large enough to support the team. But over the years drawing over 20k people on a constant basis isn't easy. I have my doubts about Halifax but for Moncton it is a totally unrealistic scenario AT THIS TIME.

[MonctonGoldenTri]

Originally Posted by someone123

I'm not saying there aren't rich people in Moncton/NB, just that Halifax/NS have them too, and all else being equal you'd expect more billionaires in Halifax as it's a larger city. So without further explanation it's not a good example of why the CFL is more likely to set up shop in Moncton.

Some local examples are Kenneth Rowe (IMP) and John Risley (Clearwater) and you can see some large local mansions of some of these people.

I'm also skeptical of the narrative that Moncton is a football-crazed Regina-like city and meaningfully more enthusiastic than Halifax.

Having played both minor and high school football in the Moncton area, I can say with absolute confidence that the football culture here is on a whole different level...easily 10x stronger than in any other Maritime city, including Halifax. At the high school level, football is more popular than hockey. That’s just the reality on the ground

In fact, you’ll find more casual football fans than hockey fans, which says a lot. Moncton is a football-crazed city...maybe not quite on Regina’s level, but it’s not far off

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by elly63

There is a reason why the team has always been called Atlantic. That is because there is a justifiable belief that the team needs the additional province(s) to succeed over the long haul.

Theoretically Halifax is large enough to support the team. But over the years drawing over 20k people on a constant basis isn't easy. I have my doubts about Halifax but for Moncton it is a totally unrealistic scenario AT THIS TIME.

"the team"

is the team in the room with us right now, Elly?

There is no "team", just 40+ years of chatter, and no new stadium in Halifax.

I think it's naive to think many, if any, New Brunswicker's will support a Halifax CFL team simply because it's called an "Atlantic" team, rather than being called a Halifax team or a Nova Scotia team.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

"the team"

is the team in the room with us right now, Elly?

There is no "team", just 40+ years of chatter, and no new stadium in Halifax.

I think it's naive to think many, if any, New Brunswicker's will support a Halifax CFL team simply because it's called an "Atlantic" team, rather than being called a Halifax team or a Nova Scotia team.

Seriously, how old are you? Do you honestly think the cartoons strengthen your childlike posts?

So are you saying people from NB won't go to Halifax to see a football game? I know you have no clue about NB, it's obvious you weren't raised there but keep spouting the childish nonsense, you're the Hans Christian Andersen of skyscraperpage.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by elly63

you're the Hans Christian Andersen of skyscraperpage.

Thank you, Elly. I'm honoured. 🕯📚🏆

I don't think I'm crazy to think Moncton could be the Regina of the CFL out east. You seem to think billionaires and raw population figures should decide every part of the process for where the next team goes.

I might not be a big CFL fan, but I am interested in getting CFL teams to the Maritimes in order to get some bigger stadiums built. I'm more interested in the Maritimes attracting more CPL teams, which would share a stadium with a CFL team, or maybe even share a club name/ logo, like they do in Europe.

Last time I checked, Moncton has nearly the same population as Regina around 2007, and would draw on a larger provincial population for support. Both Saint John and Fredericton are a lot closer to Moncton than Saskatoon is to Regina... yet lot's of people from Saskatoon will travel to support the riders.

If we compare Regina/Moncton and Winnipeg/Halifax I think there's a reasonable belief that Moncton will support a CFL team more wildly than Halifax would. Even before the Jets came back to Winnipeg, and the CFL was the only game in town, there was no comparing the level of support for the Riders in Regina vs the Bombers in Winnipeg.

Sure, Winnipeg has always had lots of Bomber fans, but the widespread support for the team across the city and province is nothing compared to the situation in Regina and the province of Saskatchewan as a whole.

I happen to think Moncton could end up following the model of the Saskatchewan Roughriders and become a successful CFL expansion franchise. i don't know when that might happen, but I've long felt that way, including the first time I visited NB as a teenager in the mid 2000's. You disagree, and seem to get very upset about me expression my opinion on this subject, and I suggest you get over it.

[elly63]

What bothers me about your posts is your lack of knowledge about the history and character of the area and like a few people think because Moncton is the same size as Regina it can duplicate what the province of Saskatchewan (not Regina alone) has done.

The Riders have a over a century worth of goodwill and foundation to build on. I am trying to think of the highest level of pro sport Moncton has had, American Hockey League and for how long and what size crowds?

Moncton just does not have the resources to back this on a long term basis and that is something you'll have to get over. Which city can be trusted to keep drawing crowds if they don't capture an out of town market. I would think it would be the one that is four times larger.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by elly63

Moncton just does not have the resources to back this on a long term basis and that is something you'll have to get over. Which city can be trusted to keep drawing crowds if they don't capture an out of town market. I would think it would be the one that is four times larger.

And I'm just saying it doesn't have to be binary... there could be teams in two markets. Perhaps Halifax get's the team first, I don't know. But they're going to be a success in the long term, I think there needs to be a natural rival in the region, and Moncton seems to the be logical location for that rival franchise.

I don't think it would be crazy to try and replicate the success of the Saskatchewan vs Winnipeg rivalry on the East Coast with a New Brunswick vs Halifax rivalry... I think it would be smart.

[elly63]

In the short term, the league only wants to expand by one team so they can have an even number of teams to ease the scheduling. I think it was something like two weeks can be shaved off the season if they can eliminate byes.

[SevenSquared]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I might not be a big CFL fan, but I am interested in getting CFL teams to the Maritimes in order to get some bigger stadiums built. I'm more interested in the Maritimes attracting more CPL teams, which would share a stadium with a CFL team, or maybe even share a club name/ logo, like they do in Europe.

If you truly wanted CPL in Moncton, the last thing you would ever do is try to re-ignite any talks of a CFL team.

And if you knew anything about the CPL and its short history, you most certainly wouldn't advocate for a CPL team to play in a 30,000-seat CFL stadium!

But don't take it from me, go talk to some Valour fans in Winnipeg who just last week had their team shut down operations for good, mainly due to their increased irrelevancy in the Winnipeg sports scene, playing second fiddle to a CFL team and playing in a laughably oversized CFL stadium.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by SevenSquared

If you truly wanted CPL in Moncton, the last thing you would ever do is try to re-ignite any talks of a CFL team.

And if you knew anything about the CPL and its short history, you most certainly wouldn't advocate for a CPL team to play in a 30,000-seat CFL stadium!

But don't take it from me, go talk to some Valour fans in Winnipeg who just last week had their team shut down operations for good, mainly due to their increased irrelevancy in the Winnipeg sports scene, playing second fiddle to a CFL team and playing in a laughably oversized CFL stadium.

Personally, I think the concerns over CPL and MLS teams playing in “too big of a stadium” are largely misplaced, overblown concerns.

Eventually, they’ll sell more tickets as the CPL grows in popularity. Moreover having a larger stadium would make it possible for Moncton to host major international soccer matches… Like maybe Canada will host the Copa America one day? 🌎🏆⚽️

I think the Winnipeg Valour FC situation was unfortunate, but I certainly wouldn’t blame their stadium (which is often described as one of the nicest stadiums in Canada) being “too big” as a major reason for why the Valour FC folded.

They should have just called the team the Winnipeg Blue Bombers FC ⚽️ and stuck with a team name and brand with nearly 100 years of history and support. If Real Madrid can be both a soccer club and a basketball team, then the Blue Bombers could have been both a football team and a soccer club.

The professional sports market in Winnipeg was quite competitive with an NHL team, AHL team, CEBL team, minor league baseball team, CFL team, and the CPL club… which, imo, is main reason the franchise folded (much like the short lived Winnipeg Ice of the WHL) the market was just too competitive… but that not an issue for the CPL in Halifax, and wouldn’t be an issue for a CPL expansion club in Moncton.

[someone123]

It's a real issue when there are only so many dollars to go around. It's particularly acute in Moncton, where to drive a CFL team you've got to have a significant percent of the whole population of the metro area showing up in the stadium. Add in another sports team like CPL with existing hockey and there's more competition for dollars, although they are somewhat different seasons.

Winnipeg isn't tiny but it's also not a multimillion person metro area and there's a lot of competition for those sports dollars.

[Wdclement]

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1BN3zY4yey/
Quote from post:
It's so great to see that our opening a new store in the Fall River area has inspired a mega developer to put a 27,000 seat stadium nearby at the Aerotech Connector off Highway 102!

Hmmm....LumberMart BMR Logo at the 55yard line?? Football Tailgate parties at the new store??

In all seriousness though...this might actually go, here's why;

•No public money (water services?)
•land owned by local group already including Shaw & Marchand Homes
•retail / hotel / restaurants planned
•massive area 150 acres
•could create 1000 jobs annually
•$450m in potential annual revenue
•no extra load on downtown traffic
•lots of parking planned
•200 + events possible a year! (Maybe we'll finally get the Spice Girls or New Kids on the Block here??)

What do you think? Is this the Goldie Locks solution to this development for a much needed stadium?

[nwalbert]

Originally Posted by Wdclement

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1BN3zY4yey/
Quote from post:
It's so great to see that our opening a new store in the Fall River area has inspired a mega developer to put a 27,000 seat stadium nearby at the Aerotech Connector off Highway 102!

Hmmm....LumberMart BMR Logo at the 55yard line?? Football Tailgate parties at the new store??

In all seriousness though...this might actually go, here's why;

•No public money (water services?)
•land owned by local group already including Shaw & Marchand Homes
•retail / hotel / restaurants planned
•massive area 150 acres
•could create 1000 jobs annually
•$450m in potential annual revenue
•no extra load on downtown traffic
•lots of parking planned
•200 + events possible a year! (Maybe we'll finally get the Spice Girls or New Kids on the Block here??)

What do you think? Is this the Goldie Locks solution to this development for a much needed stadium?

This looks like a carbon copy of Foxboro. Halifax does probably need an outdoor stadium in the next 20 years. Ideally it would be closer to downtown than Fall River, but the burbs has its advantages too.

[MonctonRad]

This is an interesting proposal.

A football stadium does not necessarily belong downtown. It is different than a hockey arena. An arena has multiple potential uses, such as concerts, trade shows and special events in addition to hockey and basketball. A downtown arena could be busy 100 days a year. An arena is an important business generator for a downtown core.

Football stadia are generally single use facilities. It may only be busy 10x per year (including playoffs), unless it does double duty as a soccer stadium. It doesn't drive adjacent business activity in the same way as an arena does.

A stadium location by the airport would also help to make a football team more of a regional team than a stadium in the core. It would be two hours from Moncton. It would make it feasible for day trippers to go to games. It might even allow some Monctonians to be season's ticket holders (eight home games per year). The potential fan base could end up being a lot larger than a downtown Halifax facility. Abundant parking and not having to deal with downtown Halifax traffic congestion would also be major draws for regional support.

The developers are from Las Vegas. One wonders how they found out that Halifax even exists. It would be preferable if the proponents were local, but, if they claim it could be privately financed, then, the more the merrier.

I am not overly sanguine about the chances of this happening, but it will be interesting to see what transpires.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Wdclement

It's so great to see that our opening a new store in the Fall River area has inspired a mega developer to put a 27,000 seat stadium nearby at the Aerotech Connector off Highway 102!

This proposal fits my view that the CFL and stadium project was pretty good but the plans were mismanaged around 2005-2015, and now it has become almost a no-brainer as the city has grown so much.

I don't like this plan from an urban planning perspective, but aside from that it seems beneficial. I also don't really buy the "lack of land" argument. There are lot of empty and underused sites closer in. The prime sites, like the Commons or Shannon Park, have a lot of baggage and bureaucracy associated with them, but that's not the same as a lack of space.

Another takeaway I can't help but notice is that in the end this may be built by American interests. This doesn't bother me but it doesn't seem positive that NS or Canadian interests and governments can't handle these projects, and there are so many domestic naysayers (so many Canadians "know" the Maritimes can't have things like this). I think Americans are often better investors and better at ambitiously running businesses, and tend to be less blinkered. And for a project in the Maritimes they probably bring fewer prejudices.

I hope that Halifax can at least get BRT running into the core and so a facility like this can have buses that run in dedicated lanes. Then maybe on a longer (10 year) timeframe there can be passenger rail upgrades.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by nwalbert

This looks like a carbon copy of Foxboro. Halifax does probably need an outdoor stadium in the next 20 years. Ideally it would be closer to downtown than Fall River, but the burbs has its advantages too.

I think this could work well as a CFL stadium, especially where it would be a regional team, making it easier for fans from across the region to access. However, it would be a horrible place for the HFX Wanderers and Tides to play in. Hopefully we can get a smaller soccer specfic stadium built downtown before this were to happen.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

I think this could work well as a CFL stadium, especially where it would be a regional team, making it easier for fans from across the region to access. However, it would be a horrible place for the HFX Wanderers and Tides to play in. Hopefully we can get a smaller soccer specfic stadium built downtown before this were to happen.

Yes, I think this would be reasonable. Especially since these teams are not being marketed as regional teams in the same way as a CFL team would be.

[MonctonRad]

A CFL team by the airport might also ake the idea of an LRT line to the Airport from Halifax an easier sell. It would give the LRT an additional destination.

I could envisage an entirely new alignment separate from the CNR mainline with stops at YHZ, the CFL stadium, Dartmouth Crossing, Little Brooklyn, and downtown Dartmouth by the ferry terminal. If city council had sufficient balls, they could look at an eventual harbour crossing (query underwater tunnel) to downtown Halifax as a subway. This could be the start of the subway system that HRM will inevitably need.