CFL in the Maritimes

[drewber]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There is a Maritime Football League

https://www.maritimefootballleague.com/

Six teams (three from NB, three from NS), It is a senior football league and a lot of the players are ex university footballers with a small spattering of former professional players.

The schedule is six games, in the late spring followed by a two round playoff.

The league is 24 years old. The champion is almost invariably from Moncton or Saint John. It is a low key but highly competitive league with good calibre game play.

Interesting. Maybe they need to market it more as I had no idea it existed and its almost exactly as I had described 😂

[elly63]

I had the AFL in mind because I knew Holland College had a team.

ATLANTIC FOOTBALL LEAGUE

Established in 2009, the Atlantic Football League (AFL) is comprised of four teams located within Atlantic Canada; the Dalhousie Tigers, Holland College Hurricanes, UNB Reds, and Saint John Falcons.

The AFL offers players aged 18-24 the chance to play competitive football in their communities, and benefit from the leadership and skill-building environment of high-caliber sports teams.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by elly63

As a comparison 50% of Rider fans come from outside Regina. Am I saying that same number would come from NB, no. But I think it could be a decent number and again historically speaking people from NB are more likely to go to NS than the other way around.

50% seems like a pretty healthy draw directly from Regina. It's only about one quarter of the provincial population and is smaller than Halifax. I assume CFL teams generally attract a significant percentage of out-of-town visitors who are there to see the other team.

Halifax has easier flight connections to other CFL cities and, no offense Moncton, but has a lot more for tourists, particularly accessible stuff around downtown. This is part of why I think a suburban venue would be a mistake (invariably I'm sure parking and vehicle access would also be a disaster).

[elly63]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is part of why I think a suburban venue would be a mistake (invariably I'm sure parking and vehicle access would also be a disaster).

I think the best bet would be to do something in connection with SMU (and also maybe even Dal who have a team in the AFL). They can get Federal money for being part of an educational institution's infrastructure and from what I have read from past CFL/SMU events the university was amenable.

Like Moncton, whether there is a CFL team or not I think a city the size of Halifax should have a decent sized stadium for all sorts of events.

But for all my wishes and dreams, they mean nothing without a legitimate CFL owner coming forward if I want to se an 18-20k stadium built.

I suppose we'll have to wait for the feasibility study report to see where this goes.

I'm elly and I endorse this message
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[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by elly63

I had the AFL in mind because I knew Holland College had a team.

ATLANTIC FOOTBALL LEAGUE

Established in 2009, the Atlantic Football League (AFL) is comprised of four teams located within Atlantic Canada; the Dalhousie Tigers, Holland College Hurricanes, UNB Reds, and Saint John Falcons.

The AFL offers players aged 18-24 the chance to play competitive football in their communities, and benefit from the leadership and skill-building environment of high-caliber sports teams.

This is a second tier primarily intercollegiate league. It is not senior football like the MFL.

I have heard that the UNB Reds will likely join the AUS football league within the next 4-5 years or so.

[Taeolas]

It does feel like Sports is one of the last holdouts of the "Maritime shunning" that happened through the late 20th/early 21st century. Where to the Rest of Canada, the country started (or stopped) at Quebec City and nothing east of there mattered.

That did lead to the Maritimes/Atlantic Canada becoming somewhat self sufficient in many ways, fostering some strong companies (Irvings, McCains, Sobeys), and even moderately strong media circles (Brunswick News, ATV and its sister stations).

But it also means we were shoved into a corner out of sight to the rest of the country, so our businesses (and sports) got little to no attention.

Granted I'm not into sports, but the fact that there isn't a Sportsnet Atlantic to cover Maritime sports like MFL and similar seems quite telling, even if such a channel would need to simulcast Sportsnet East content half the time.

It means we're basically constantly playing catch up and are seen as "Well there's no support, no interest out there." A chicken and the egg situation basically.

Thankfully the Quebec barrier has been cracked in recent decades, as seen both by the influx of nationwide businesses moving in (and Maritime businesses expanding outward), but other than the QMJHL, it feels hard to crack the sports nut.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

It does feel like Sports is one of the last holdouts of the "Maritime shunning" that happened through the late 20th/early 21st century. Where to the Rest of Canada, the country started (or stopped) at Quebec City and nothing east of there mattered.

That did lead to the Maritimes/Atlantic Canada becoming somewhat self sufficient in many ways, fostering some strong companies (Irvings, McCains, Sobeys), and even moderately strong media circles (Brunswick News, ATV and its sister stations).

But it also means we were shoved into a corner out of sight to the rest of the country, so our businesses (and sports) got little to no attention.

Granted I'm not into sports, but the fact that there isn't a Sportsnet Atlantic to cover Maritime sports like MFL and similar seems quite telling, even if such a channel would need to simulcast Sportsnet East content half the time.

It means we're basically constantly playing catch up and are seen as "Well there's no support, no interest out there." A chicken and the egg situation basically.

Thankfully the Quebec barrier has been cracked in recent decades, as seen both by the influx of nationwide businesses moving in (and Maritime businesses expanding outward), but other than the QMJHL, it feels hard to crack the sports nut.

I know I'm the one that resurrected this old thread , but I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of the CFL in the maritimes, I just think there's an opportunity for NB and NS to be the SK and MB of the CFL out east, and think it would be silly for the CFL not to take the risk on a smaller market like Moncton and New Brunswick, if there's even a slight chance they could replicate or emulate the secret sauce that makes the Riders so damn popular in Regina and across Saskatchewan... even if Moncton's stadium situation is not yet ideal, Moncton's still got a stadium with much higher capacity than Halifax has at the moment.

Regina's old stadium, Taylor Field, was quite a dump, and it even had wooden bleachers in some sections. Nonetheless, the Riders have long been the most wildly supported team in the CFL, and a big part of that is because they are the highest level professional sports team in the entire city of Regina and province
of Saskatchewan, and that would, of course, also be the case for CFL teams in Moncton or Halifax.

I think the CFL should get over themselves a bit, and not have such strict stadium requirements, and at least give expansion franchises a chance to play in a less than ideal stadium for a decade or so if they present a roadmap to getting a better stadium built one day.

As for sports being one of the last holdouts of "Maritime shunning" lol.

I really think the pro sports focus for the Maritimes should be on lower hanging fruit, like getting some Canadian Elite Basketball League franchises, or some more Canadian Premier League clubs. Soccer and basketball are two of the fastest growing sports in Canada, and Canadian athletes have recently been making huge progress at the professional level in both sports. I'd love to see some maritimes teams in the CEBL one day, and same with more CPL clubs. These leagues have far lower barriers to entry than the CFL, and are more rapidly growing in popularity in Canada compared to football.

Though, perhaps baseball is the spectator sport we should be gunning for here in NB, and across the maritimes?

I was saving up this chart for the main "Baseball in Canada" thread, but here it is... historical proof of New Brunswick and PEI's historical "dominance" in Canadian baseball.


Per the Canadian Centre for Baseball Research:

when taking a second-level look at the origins, it can easily be concluded
that the richest source of Canadian major leaguers is actually New Brunswick.

With a population of 775,610, the fact is that New Brunswick has produced 17
major leaguers --- more than 2 major leaguers per 100,000 population. Even
though Ontario has produced 135, British Columbia 40, and Quebec 32, per 100K, this is less than half the percentage of New Brunswickers.

I know Matt Stairs was only born in Saint John, and grew up in Fredericton, but it's still Saint John that's on the back of every baseball card or baseball stats website that he's listed. I think he should be up on our "Hall of Fame" and have ballfields named after him in both Fredericton and Saint John. If the dude had been given a fair chance in the MLB earlier, he might have had a hall of fame career. He's arguably the biggest pro sports star in history born in Saint John.


There are 14 minor league baseball leagues that operate across the US, Dominican Republic, and Canada surely we could get some level of minor league baseball in the maritimes if we built some ballparks. The Double-AEastern League might be aiming a bit high for minor league baseball expansion into the Maritimes, but why not aim high!

Heck, Mairtime cities could arguably even support a Triple-A minor league baseball teams if given the chance. For reference, Canada's only Triple-A minor league baseball team, the Vancouver Canadians, play out of ballpark with only 6,500 seats. Minor league ballparks cost a fraction of the cost to build 20-25k+ football stadiums.

Still,CEBL expansion teams are probably what the Maritimes should be trying to get next, since we already have multiple QMJHL arenas that would be more
than suitable for CEBL franchises.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

This is a second tier primarily intercollegiate league. It is not senior football like the MFL.

Yes, I knew the difference but the AFL was what first came to my mind when the original question was posted.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

even if Moncton's stadium situation is not yet ideal, Moncton's still got a stadium with much higher capacity than Halifax has at the moment.

I don't think this is very accurate. The stadium the Wanderers play in is 7,500 and Moncton's is 8,300.

In Halifax, the municipality is looking at spending over $100M to improve the Wanderers site. The problem is so far they're not looking at CFL standards and there's resistance to relocating any other uses. I think that if the lawn bowling has to go for a useful larger stadium, it should be a no-brainer. The largest obstacle isn't money or public will, it's bureaucracy and scope creep. It would be a mistake to spend over $100M of public dollars and not contribute to something at least along the path of getting a CFL-ready stadium, IMO (like something expandable, even if it doesn't have 25,000 seats today).

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

It does feel like Sports is one of the last holdouts of the "Maritime shunning" that happened through the late 20th/early 21st century. Where to the Rest of Canada, the country started (or stopped) at Quebec City and nothing east of there mattered.

A very large factor is that there were no strong regional markets as there were no big cities and the economy was relatively weak. This is changing somewhat as Halifax is becoming a mid-sized city with an average to even above-average economy by national standards.

Moncton is still a very small market for pro sports teams operating at a scale beyond the QMJHL.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by someone123

It would be a mistake to spend over $100M of public dollars and not contribute to something at least along the path of getting a CFL-ready stadium, IMO (like something expandable, even if it doesn't have 25,000 seats today).

I agree and especially now (and I hate to say it) we really don't know if we can bank on the future of the CPL. Valour's gone and three other markets are not doing well drawing under 3k per game. One is at 3, one is around 2k and the other 1.3k. The Wanderers themselves only get around 6.5k

As for the CFL they might be able to make due with 20k.

“The CFL is changing and I think that people are recognizing that. We don’t need a bigger stadium. We used to think that once you fill a 20,000-seat stadium that now you’ve gotta go to 25,000 or 30,000. That’s not true anymore. I think that having a 20-something thousand (seat) stadium is plenty. I think that where we need to look to reinvest and add to our offerings for our fan base and attract a new fan base is hospitality, party areas, and activation areas where people can come to the game and there’s a party going on,” said Weightman.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by someone123

I don't think this is very accurate. The stadium the Wanderers play in is 7,500 and Moncton's is 8,300.

In Halifax, the municipality is looking at spending over $100M to improve the Wanderers site. The problem is so far they're not looking at CFL standards and there's resistance to relocating any other uses. I think that if the lawn bowling has to go for a useful larger stadium, it should be a no-brainer. The largest obstacle isn't money or public will, it's bureaucracy and scope creep. It would be a mistake to spend over $100M of public dollars and not contribute to something at least along the path of getting a CFL-ready stadium, IMO (like something expandable, even if it doesn't have 25,000 seats today).

Are these figures not accurate from the Touchdown Atlantic Wikipedia page:



I understand these figures are for expandable seating configurations in Moncton, but if accurate, it seems Moncton's stadium has a much higher expandable seating capacity than Halifax's.

If Halifax was to build a CFL ready, 20-25k+ stadium, what exactly would be the great risk for the CFL to also grant an expansion franchise to Moncton that would play out of an expanded capacity Croix-Bleue Medavie Stadium for maybe 5-10 years as they seek funding to build a new stadium?

The CFL seemed to recover fine from the failure of the Ottawa Renegades.

I bet a Moncton CFL team would be a success, even playing out of a less than ideal stadium, and they'd obtain the funding to build a new stadium.

[elly63]

Finally, someone else notices this!

First to jump on board was the Globe and Mail with a hastily developed story on the hurdles to overcome before a team can take the field with some expert quotes to make the case. Moshe Lander, like in all the stories he is quoted in, shows very little understanding of the CFL or business, which explains why he is an academic.

Every single story written about CFL expansion or stadium has extremely lazy "journalists" who know of no other person to call but this crank. This is the guy who said Halifax should build a 35-40k stadium. That was my first aha moment.

It just drives me nuts that every story uses this guy for a source

[elly63]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I bet a Moncton CFL team would be a success, even playing out of a less than ideal stadium, and they'd obtain the funding to build a new stadium.

Please give it a rest, you have posted the same thing (to the point of trolling) that almost everyone here has disagreed with. You don't know Moncton or Halifax, please stop with the chaff, it's botlike.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by elly63

Please give it a rest, you have posted the same thing (to the point of trolling) that almost everyone here has disagreed with. You don't know Moncton or Halifax, please stop with the chaff, it's botlike.

Please look back through the thread Elly. There was lots of positivity about the prospects for a Moncton CFL franchise in pages previous.

I'd say you should give it a rest. I thought discussing prospects for a Moncton CFL franchise here on the Atlantic forum would finally mean discussing the subject without you interjecting, but I guess not!

Just keep in mind, differing opinions do not equate to trolling!

I happen to think a CFL expansion team in Halifax without a natural rival in the neighbouring province of NB would be doomed to fail... and I couldn't care less if you disagree with me.

You seem to not know anything about how to be polite or civil... so, please stop it with the crankiness.

[elly63]

You know nothing about Moncton or Halifax, that is plainly evident. No one but the extremely naive thinks Moncton can sustain a franchise. Wish it were true but it isn't and all your wishing and dreaming and added cartoons to somehow add credence to your childlike posts won't change that.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by elly63

You know nothing about Moncton or Halifax, that is plainly evident.

No one but the extremely naive thinks Moncton can sustain a franchise. Wish it were true but it isn't and all your wishing and dreaming and added cartoons to somehow add credence to your childlike posts won't change that.

Give it a rest

I haven't posted a single cartoon... but I did post this awesome map for a better CFL expansion than simply adding a team in Halifax:


12 teams, 6 natural rivals


While I get that Quebec City is larger market, I think New Brunswick would be the better rival for a Halifax team... the Saskatchewan vs Winnipeg rivalry of the East!

[someone123]

Yeah, that was with temporary seating and my impression is Moncton hasn't actually sold out all Touchdown Atlantic events and those were rare (so more likely to draw on a wider area). It's not just about seat count but pricing. I don't have a strong feeling about Moncton either way aside from thinking Moncton is at the smaller end for a CFL city. We'll see what happens I guess.

I think Victoria would be a challenge as well. There are the BC Lions already; Victoria is part of their market and is on the smaller side.

Are Montreal and Ottawa or Toronto and Hamilton "CFL rivals"? I have no idea.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by someone123

Are Montreal and Ottawa or Toronto and Hamilton "CFL rivals"? I have no idea.

I'm not sure about now but there was somewhat of a rivalry between Ottawa and Montreal as neither team (along with BC) has a "natural and or historical rival".

The Labour Day games and the week after pit the rival teams together and are the biggest games of the year. Toronto and Hamilton have a big historical rivalry and still do. For the last several years Hamilton has often had 1000 or 2000 fans more than their stadium capacity in the LDC.

Wow, look at a young Rod Smith

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[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

Yeah, that was with temporary seating and my impression is Moncton hasn't actually sold out all Touchdown Atlantic events and those were rare (so more likely to draw on a wider area). It's not just about seat count but pricing. I don't have a strong feeling about Moncton either way aside from thinking Moncton is at the smaller end for a CFL city. We'll see what happens I guess.

There were four Touchdown Atlantic games in Moncton.

The first two games were heavily promoted by the league, and there was a mini Grey Cup atmosphere for the weekend. There were festivals, concerts, tailgating and a couple of high school games at Rocky Stone Field to serve as an appetizer for the main event. It was a big deal. Attendance for both these games was over 20,000. I think they were wildly successful

Then things changed.

The promotion disappeared for the next two games (especially game #4), The CFL seemed to have lost interest, There were no festivals, parades or warm up hgh school games. The only thing that happened was the game itself. Game #3 only had an attendance of 15,000

With game #4 it was blatantly obvious that the CFL was only going through the motions. They even reduced the amount of temporary bleachers at the stadium so that capacity was only about 12,000 rather than 20,500. The CFL commissioner if I recall actually said before the game that his preference for Maritime expansion was Halifax and not Moncton. This was certainly a buzz kill for the game. Fans began to wonder what the point of the exercise was . Was Moncton being used to goad Halifax into mounting a serious expansion bid.? Attendance at game four was only about 10,000.

I went to all four games. The first two were fabulous, Game three was pretty good. There was something funereal about game four however. The crowd was distracted. The CFL packed up afterwards and left town.

I am realistic enough to realize that the conditions are not right at the present time for the CFL in Moncton. We are still a touch too small with about 300,000 people in SE NB and Cumberland County NS. We need a new stadium, and there is no ownership group. It's not going to happen right now.. I accept that.

But, looking at elly and someones comments, I get the impression that they think it a daft concept that Moncton would consider getting a CFL team ever, at any time, even into the far future. I find this vaguely insulting.

I remember 25 years ago when Moncton reached a population of 100,000 and became a CMA. In that short time, the population has nearly doubled with the CMA population withi a whisker of reaching 200,000. The percentage growth rate in Moncton on an annualized basis is equal to that of Halifax, and these two cities are usually tops on the list of fastest growing cities in the country. Where will Moncton be in another 25 years? Will it be 300,000 in the CMA and 400,000 in the region, or possibly even more??

Ay some point in time Moncton will be big enough, The city has a strong football culture (despite someone's disbelief). This is the most important thing is ensuring the success of a Moncton based team. In 30-40 years all we will need is an ownership group and a proper stadium. I think it will eventually happen.