Ottawa Macdonald-Cartier International Airport (YOW/CYOW)

[solo748]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

That is not what Dominion said. They mentioned that the timing of the flights was the surprise. And quite frankly, I find the 3x weekly on the XLR to be appalling. RomanR provides valuable info on the loads of these LHR flights, which you are more than welcome to go back to the comments made from them last winter to check the loads. After checking, ask yourself is the reduction from the 788 to an XLR warranted?

I literally read his load reports and said the loads were screaming XLR. AC don't like half empty flatbeds overnight into LHR (or anywhere, obviously)
What's appalling is 3 weekly. Exacerbated when it's only 3X using the daytime slot.

Originally Posted by solo748

Your anecdotal load reports (which include UG/staff travel etc) scream just how great the XLR would be on YOWLHR daily or 6x/wk
I hope AC don't run XLR to FRA which will cannibalize CDG

10-12 weekly combined to LHR and CDG is a sweet spot IMO

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

AC can indeed increase these frequencies or at the very least put the 4x weekly in YOW over YHZ. It's clear AC wants nothing to do with YOW and this LHR route is just a "see? we're giving you a TATL, now shut up". YOW can in fact handle more capacity and more routes TATL, denying this gives me flashbacks of the skeptics such as yourself when AF announced their plans a few years ago. Now those people are eating their words

Yeah, I'm eating my words that YOW is a thin, marginal market and the airport authority would be wise to do what it can to shore-up and support their flagship route rather than pie-in-the-sky aspirational mindset which would cannbalize CDG.

Why would BA choose STL over YOW? Why don't Icelandair come or Aer Lingus?

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

There seems to be a pattern though I've noticed with AC. They don't give a damn until another carrier does something. YHZ-BRU or better yet, YYC-LHR staying DAILY on a WIDE BODY in the winter would never be a thing if it wasn't for WS.

If AC reacts to other carriers, why didn't they react to AF at YOW?

Where does all this untapped, viable demand go? Still leaking to YUL?

AC is in the YOWLHR market. Why would the discard such viable demand?

[RomanR27]

WestJet/Sunwing has loaded in the actual schedule for all routes now. At one point last week PVR showed up again, but it's since disappeared. So still only up to 15x weekly across the network (6x CUN, 5x PUJ, 2x VRA, 1x MBJ/CCC). Still two based frames, though all the CUN flights depart between 0600 and 0900 and the returns all arrive post-midnight, so lots of V routings and/or aircraft rotation. The only day that sees a YOW-based frame doing two YOW flights is Sunday with a YOW-MBJ-YOW-VRA-YOW turn. The Friday CCC flight returns to YOW at 1550 so there's still a blank space after that if they want to add something.

On a separate note, Transat Vacations now has vacation packages live for Nassau, Grand Cayman Island, and Puerto Vallarta/Riviera Nayarit from Ottawa using the Porter flights.

[solo748]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

Solo here is using AC's service levels as an indication of the YOW market which, I'm sorry to say, is ridiculous. AC never served YYJ for example before PD's expansion (or now for that matter). Now PD is doing daily in the summer and it is now year-round with very limited connections. Couldn't AC have done that let's say 4x weekly on a Max? Yes they can. But Solo here would have ran with this fact and said there is no market for YOW-YYJ because AC doesn't serve it. YOW-YLW started as 2x weekly on F8, then moved to 1x weekly then discontinued. PD is doing it now 6x weekly and already publicly stated it might go year-round with even less feed than YYJ. But according to this ridiculous logic, there is no market for YOW-YLW.

Wait, If an airline inaugurates or increases a YOW route, it's due to demand. If an airline doesn't serve a route or cancels, it's becuase they don't like Ottawa

I've literally changed plans and destinations to support PD on their nonstop options (YYJ, AUA). I actually believe the local market has spoken with their wallets and is now well served. That's why I question bullish TATL claims

I think YOW needs to focus on on connecting PAX. Relatively smallish hub cities (SLC, CLT) punch above their weight service-wise on the back on connecting passengers and I wish PD would do that for Ottawa. Might have kept a destination like PHX in the schedule

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Depends on your intention at arrival. Not just jet lag.

Put it this way. Would you rather go to a meeting with no sleep or some sleep? That's effectively the choice given to average public servant flying Economy to LHR from YOW. If you're there for 1-2 days arriving in the night is alright. You get some sleep. If you're there for longer (say a week long conference), you're flying earlier anyway and arriving the day before any meeting, so arriving in the morning is alright. You have the whole day to settle in and can go to bed early.

Sure that doesn't work for high flying business class people who are ostensibly walking into lunch time meetings in London. But that's a smaller proportion out of Ottawa anyway. They'll connect through Toronto or Montreal or even Newark if they have to.

Sort of an apples to oranges comparison. In the day scenario the employer is paying for a night at a hotel before the meeting and a full work day for travel. If the employer will authorize a full day of travel and a a hotel night then the redeye comparison would be arriving the day before and having almost a day to acclimatize.

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by solo748

I literally read his load reports and said the loads were screaming XLR. AC don't like half empty flatbeds overnight into LHR (or anywhere, obviously)
What's appalling is 3 weekly. Exacerbated when it's only 3X using the daytime slot.

Yeah, I'm eating my words that YOW is a thin, marginal market and the airport authority would be wise to do what it can to shore-up and support their flagship route rather than pie-in-the-sky aspirational mindset which would cannbalize CDG.

Why would BA choose STL over YOW? Why don't Icelandair come or Aer Lingus?


If AC reacts to other carriers, why didn't they react to AF at YOW?

Where does all this untapped, viable demand go? Still leaking to YUL?

AC is in the YOWLHR market. Why would the discard such viable demand?

Are you seriously comparing YOW to STL? An airport with a catchment area of 1.5m vs. 2.8m respectively? Think before you speak.

1000% the leakage to YUL remains a massive issue for YOW. My unproven theory is that AC is only doing LHR because there is a very nice option down the road in Dorval to LHR, and that option is BA, so AC is serving YOW-LHR JUST enough to catch those pax but not enough to actually serve it properly. Did you go and check the loads that were posted last winter? The 788 wasn't filling half empty seats. The loads in J and W were doing quite well (20 and 21 seats respectively). Now they want to drop it to the same frequency with a frame that has only 14 J and no W? LOL ok.

Don't speak too soon about Icelandair. TS to LGW seems like the first of PD partnerships, and if what we are predicting comes true, there will be more to come from TS. Why are TS even here doing LGW? AC isn't increasing frequency or upgauging their frames so the current number of seats to London on AC must be just right and in no need for capacity increases, correct? Personally, if they add FCO or BCN from YOW, I will be using it frequently and waving at AC, YUL, and YYZ while on my direct flight while you continue to justify AC's incredible service everywhere except YOW. AF will have to do for now.

[solo748]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

Are you seriously comparing YOW to STL? An airport with a catchment area of 1.5m vs. 2.8m respectively? Think before you speak.

Wonder if there's an STL local in the Lambert airport thread with the vast aviation network expertise you have. Can't imagine how riled up they are having ~HALF the TATL seats YOW has in summer. Wonder if they're filling the forum telling others all the conspiracies profit-driven airlines have against their home town. Telling other posters to think before they speak.
Laughable
Embarassing

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by solo748

Wonder if there's an STL local in the Lambert airport thread with the vast aviation network expertise you have. Can't imagine how riled up they are having ~HALF the TATL seats YOW has in summer. Wonder if they're filling the forum telling others all the conspiracies profit-driven airlines have against their home town. Telling other posters to think before they speak.
Laughable
Embarassing

I don't care what the STL forum is saying or not saying. Canadian airports have a history of having service way above similar sized cities in the US. A town with the same population as YHZ in the States see nothing more than feeder flights to the hubs. There is one exception though in Canada, YOW. I'm sure you're on the YHZ and YYC forums every time a new carrier announces a new launch wondering how these airports are getting all their service and how these profit driven airlines are filling their flights, but you're not because "in YHZ and YYC it makes sense because blah blah blah blah blah". Spare me. Laughable, embarrassing.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by JonToms

Please don’t go anywhere Dominion301. I enjoy your content and informed comments here and across the other skyscraperpage forums. You would be missed.

Thanks I appreciate that. I’ll stick around for now while refraining from engaging in certain areas.

Today’s departure count: 79

Today's cancellation count (so far): 2

Friday ended with 95, so that’s the new post-March 2020 benchmark.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

Are you seriously comparing YOW to STL? An airport with a catchment area of 1.5m vs. 2.8m respectively?.

Also it is the hub airport for large sections of several states.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by solo748

Not true. Even on the most penal YOWPVR segments, eating 200mph on the nose for material portions, their E2s were landing with 2,000kg+ of fuel

Curious how you got that info. I guess you work for porter?

Either way, landing with 1.5 to 3t of fuel is normal operating procedure. You need to have enough fuel to do a go around, hold, and then head for your alternate. If you land and you’re on fumes, you’re going to get a call from your chief pilot pretty darn quickly, asking what the hell happened.

Also, I’m willing to bet that those flights were nowhere near full. Travel to Mexico this past winter, especially to PVR, was negatively impacted by all the gang violence. So just because the E2 was able to reach PVR with 2 tons of fuel left doesn’t mean it hauled a full load of pax/bags. It most likely didn’t. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if these flights were weight restricted westbound on days with a 200MPH jetstream.

[solo748]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

Are you seriously comparing YOW to STL? An airport with a catchment area of 1.5m vs. 2.8m respectively? Think before you speak.

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

Canadian airports have a history of having service way above similar sized cities in the US

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Thanks I appreciate that. I’ll stick around for now while refraining from engaging in certain areas.

Today’s departure count: 79

Today's cancellation count (so far): 2

Friday ended with 95, so that’s the new post-March 2020 benchmark.

Glad to hear it. I’m more an interested observer than someone with expertise to offer, but I learn a tonne from your posts.

[solo748]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Curious how you got that info. I guess you work for porter?

I was curious how people assumed YOWSJO was deemed not viable due to limitations of the aircraft vs limitations of the market

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Either way, landing with 1.5 to 3t of fuel is normal operating procedure. You need to have enough fuel to do a go around, hold, and then head for your alternate. If you land and you’re on fumes, you’re going to get a call from your chief pilot pretty darn quickly, asking what the hell happened

Thanks. unavoidable 200mph headwinds for 75mins (and a stiff, less penal otherwise) is not normal operating procedure on the route, yet the jet made it with more than acceptable reserves on the handful of times it faces outlier headwinds

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Also, I’m willing to bet that those flights were nowhere near full

I'll take that bet.

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Travel to Mexico this past winter, especially to PVR, was negatively impacted by all the gang violence.

Agreed. However, The most penal winds were mid-Jan (ie. weeks before the gang unrest)

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

So just because the E2 was able to reach PVR with 2 tons of fuel left doesn’t mean it hauled a full load of pax/bags. It most likely didn’t.

Booked 113-121/132

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if these flights were weight restricted westbound on days with a 200MPH jetstream.

Surprise, they weren't
Airline was trying to fill all 132 seats. Loads were limited on these days solely based on demand (early, mid Jan lower demand, as I'm sure you're aware.
14K kg of fuel keeps this jet in the air a long time

[solo748]

If my posts are coming across as trolling or cheering the lack of service YOW is getting, that's not the intent.

While we all wish YOW had service everywhere, market realities are what they are. Rather than blaming profit seeking airlines for their service level choices, I'm more interested in root causes and/or opportunities YOWAA/PD/AF might leverage.

If some feel YOW is underserved and should have double/triple the TATL service we have now, Is is not fair to question why they feel that way?
If some feel airlines spite YOW, Is it not fair to ask?
If some feel all this viable exYOW demand is leaking to YUL, Do we just assume it's true?

[RomanR27]

LIR was the only sun route that went daily last year (and IIRC it was originally announced at only 2x weekly), so clearly there was pent up demand in this market for Costa Rica that exceeded even their own initial projections. That's why I was guessing SJO with its elevation may be pushing the range to YOW, given how successful they were with Costa Rica last year. Although given LIR is reducing to 4x weekly this winter, perhaps they ended up overcorrecting in the end.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Sort of an apples to oranges comparison. In the day scenario the employer is paying for a night at a hotel before the meeting and a full work day for travel. If the employer will authorize a full day of travel and a a hotel night then the redeye comparison would be arriving the day before and having almost a day to acclimatize.

And most employers don't care. Exceptionally rare for any employer to expect you to fly economy red eye and go to a meeting on arrival. Indeed the standard way in the military or public service to avoid paying for business class is break up the trip and give a night in a hotel along the way. After all, my boss doesn't cut my pay cheque. But he does have to sign my travel and make sure there's enough for everybody's needs in the section. So if the choice is giving me a night in San Francisco or Hawaii or Vancouver vs business class to New Zealand for a Five Eyes meeting, it's a really easy one. Not in the least too because sometimes the admin paperwork takes so long that fare prices skyrocket.

On this particular flight, LHR is inside 8 hrs. Very few people are entitled to business class, on policy. So plenty of bosses will happily sign the day trip + hotel.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by solo748

If my posts are coming across as trolling or cheering the lack of service YOW is getting, that's not the intent.

Nature of this forum for anybody who just doesn't drink the local Kool Aid.

I actually think YOW does reasonably well, given the context of YUL in driving distance. Especially on Sun flights. And especially post Porter.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

There is one exception though in Canada, YOW.

The one with a worse business case? Compare Ottawa to Calgary or Edmonton. Similar CMA populations. Generates a lot less demand across the board. You can't blame all of it on YYZ and YUL. Why is domestic passenger count so much lower for example? I would suggest that Calgary and Edmonton have outsized demand because of the oil sector generating both more business and personal travel. The public service just doesn't generate the same travel demands, especially in the MS Teams era. And even less is coming as environmental and fiscal policies tighten. The booking engine now shows GHG emissions per flight combination. And ever since they decided you need L1 signature for Transatlantic or Transpacific travel, there's just fewer people who go looking for that European Conference. Easier to just find a meeting in the US, that requires approval a level lower. Literally a box on the travel approval asking for an explanation on why this can't be done virtually. Guessing nobody who works at Schlumberger in Calgary has to worry about that kind of approval process just to fly to Amsterdam for a meeting.

[Dominion301]

Today’s departure count: 83

Today's cancellation count (so far): 3

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And most employers don't care. Exceptionally rare for any employer to expect you to fly economy red eye and go to a meeting on arrival. Indeed the standard way in the military or public service to avoid paying for business class is break up the trip and give a night in a hotel along the way. After all, my boss doesn't cut my pay cheque. But he does have to sign my travel and make sure there's enough for everybody's needs in the section. So if the choice is giving me a night in San Francisco or Hawaii or Vancouver vs business class to New Zealand for a Five Eyes meeting, it's a really easy one. Not in the least too because sometimes the admin paperwork takes so long that fare prices skyrocket.

On this particular flight, LHR is inside 8 hrs. Very few people are entitled to business class, on policy. So plenty of bosses will happily sign the day trip + hotel.

I didn’t say anything about business class. I just said that if your travel policy allows a travel day and a hotel before your meeting then the comparison would be between arriving a day before in the morning vs arriving the day before late at night, not arriving on the redeye the day of your meeting.