Ottawa Macdonald-Cartier International Airport (YOW/CYOW)

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by acottawa

What a terrible flight from a passenger experience. Spend the whole day on a plane, arrive in the evening wide awake. I can't see that being appealing over going to Toronto or Montreal (or Paris).

You need to get your facts straight.

The only reason for an airline to offer a daytripper is for the passenger experience. There is nothing terrible about it. Yes it reduces the options for connections, but daytrippers are mostly about O&D, and for that crowd, it's an awesome option to have. The reason it's the only benefit for an airline is because everything else about a daytripper is shitty. It's shitty in terms of airline economics, as the plane arrives too late in LHR for a quick turnaround back to Canada, and therefore needs to spend the night at LHR and departs the following day. That adds significant costs to operating a daytripper, especially at an airport like LHR.

Not saying this is the ideal flight for AC from YOW to LHR. It probably isn't, since usually a daytripper flight is operated on top of one or several red-eye flights from a hub, but nonetheless, the point remains, that this won't be a shitty passenger experience.

Daytrippers usually come at a premium compared to redeyes (timings are more favorable for the O&D crowd, and it helps with jet lag), so don't know why AC isn't utilizing this daytripper flight from YYZ, where it belongs, but that's another debate entirely.

[Dominion301]

While seeing the XLR show up on YOW-LHR over the winter months isn't surprising, seeing the route get the daytripper slot is.

Originally Posted by YOWflier

Anyone still wondering if AC wants you to use that flight to connect onward to other places?

Right now at the YOW end, current possible connections to AC 888 are from YQM & YVR...the latter currently has a redeye loaded and is a 3 hour connection with a total trip time 5H50 longer than the YVR nonstop. Will only appeal to the most price conscious of travellers or is useful at the YVR end as a backup for YVR-LHR misconnects. AC 440 from YYZ would need to be pushed 10 minutes earlier for it to be able to connect.

At the LHR end, only departures after 2200 at the earliest departing T2, 2215 for T3 will work and any interlines to T4 or T5 won't have enough time before the last LHR departures of the day.

While it's not the right season, looking at the LHR FIDS for tonight (day 5), connections would be possible to:

- On AC codeshares: MS to CAI & A3 to ATH

- On Star and AC codeshare partners with departures without an AC codeshare flight # the applicable departure at T2 on or after 2200 and T3 on or after 2215: SQ to SIN, EK to DXB, EI to ORK, CX to HKG, TK to IST and CA to PEK

- Interlines on or after 2230 at T3: BA to ABV & CPT and VS to LOS

Daytrippers are great for combatting jet lag, but not so much for connection options. 400 fewer seats/week over the winter will = mostly YOW-LHR O&D.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

You need to get your facts straight.

The only reason for an airline to offer a daytripper is for the passenger experience. There is nothing terrible about it. Yes it reduces the options for connections, but daytrippers are mostly about O&D, and for that crowd, it's an awesome option to have. The reason it's the only benefit for an airline is because everything else about a daytripper is shitty. It's shitty in terms of airline economics, as the plane arrives too late in LHR for a quick turnaround back to Canada, and therefore needs to spend the night at LHR and departs the following day. That adds significant costs to operating a daytripper, especially at an airport like LHR.

Isn't the reason a 8pm slot is cheaper/ more available?

The return at 9 am seems late for an overnight. It's already 9:30 with the redeye. Assume this is also slot related rather than to feed early morning connections from Europe?

Regardless two providers to London makes this a competitive route and therfore welcome. Though London hotels are so expensive you'll lose most of that arriving in the evening.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

You need to get your facts straight.

The only reason for an airline to offer a daytripper is for the passenger experience. There is nothing terrible about it. Yes it reduces the options for connections, but daytrippers are mostly about O&D, and for that crowd, it's an awesome option to have. The reason it's the only benefit for an airline is because everything else about a daytripper is shitty. It's shitty in terms of airline economics, as the plane arrives too late in LHR for a quick turnaround back to Canada, and therefore needs to spend the night at LHR and departs the following day. That adds significant costs to operating a daytripper, especially at an airport like LHR.

Not saying this is the ideal flight for AC from YOW to LHR. It probably isn't, since usually a daytripper flight is operated on top of one or several red-eye flights from a hub, but nonetheless, the point remains, that this won't be a shitty passenger experience.

Daytrippers usually come at a premium compared to redeyes (timings are more favorable for the O&D crowd, and it helps with jet lag), so don't know why AC isn't utilizing this daytripper flight from YYZ, where it belongs, but that's another debate entirely.

If that were the case there would be lots of day flights to meet passenger demand. In reality of the hundreds of transatlantic flights, maybe a dozen are day flights.

Jet lag is much worse. You’re waking up in Ottawa at your normal time (unless you are a shift worker), spending your entire Ottawa day on a flight, and arriving in the evening with an internal clock that thinks it is 4:00 pm.

A more likely explanation is that Air Canada has an evening slot (probably a holdover from some past 5th freedom) that they don’t want to give up.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by RomanR27

The change represents a reduction of just over 200 weekly seats per direction.

In other London narrowbody news, the inaugural Transat LGW flight is enroute, set to arrive around 1230.

Hopefully the Airport Authority gave the arrival and tonight's departure a water cannon salute.

Yesterday ended up tying the 93 mark. Today could be a post-March 2020 record.

Today’s departure count: 95

Today's cancellation count (so far): 0

[solo748]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

You need to get your facts straight.

The only reason for an airline to offer a daytripper is for the passenger experience. There is nothing terrible about it. Yes it reduces the options for connections, but daytrippers are mostly about O&D, and for that crowd, it's an awesome option to have. The reason it's the only benefit for an airline is because everything else about a daytripper is shitty. It's shitty in terms of airline economics, as the plane arrives too late in LHR for a quick turnaround back to Canada, and therefore needs to spend the night at LHR and departs the following day. That adds significant costs to operating a daytripper, especially at an airport like LHR.

Not saying this is the ideal flight for AC from YOW to LHR. It probably isn't, since usually a daytripper flight is operated on top of one or several red-eye flights from a hub, but nonetheless, the point remains, that this won't be a shitty passenger experience.

Daytrippers usually come at a premium compared to redeyes (timings are more favorable for the O&D crowd, and it helps with jet lag), so don't know why AC isn't utilizing this daytripper flight from YYZ, where it belongs, but that's another debate entirely.

this is sarcasm, right? I mean, you cannot be serious

Originally Posted by Dominion301

While seeing the XLR show up on YOW-LHR over the winter months isn't surprising, seeing the route get the daytripper slot is

Wait. You were saying YOW is severely underserved TATL, YOW would grow to 5-6 TATL, Possibly FCO (at some point)....
And now you're not surprised AC decided to go 3X on a 321 (irrespective of flight timings)???

This is an indictment of the Ottawa market. Paltry LHR service, PD reducing ASMs Y/Y. Better hold on tight to the AF service

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by solo748

this is sarcasm, right? I mean, you cannot be serious

Wait. You were saying YOW is severely underserved TATL, YOW would grow to 5-6 TATL, Possibly FCO (at some point)....
And now you're not surprised AC decided to go 3X on a 321 (irrespective of flight timings)???

This is an indictment of the Ottawa market. Paltry LHR service, PD reducing ASMs Y/Y. Better hold on tight to the AF service

I've bitten my tongue until now, but if this sort of mockery, belittlement and twisting of words continues, I'll be heading for the exits. This place has traditionally been a place of avgeekery and healthy debates amongst aviation enthusiasts. You just may end up finding yourself "solo" on here.

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by solo748

this is sarcasm, right? I mean, you cannot be serious

Wait. You were saying YOW is severely underserved TATL, YOW would grow to 5-6 TATL, Possibly FCO (at some point)....
And now you're not surprised AC decided to go 3X on a 321 (irrespective of flight timings)???

This is an indictment of the Ottawa market. Paltry LHR service, PD reducing ASMs Y/Y. Better hold on tight to the AF service

That is not what Dominion said. They mentioned that the timing of the flights was the surprise. And quite frankly, I find the 3x weekly on the XLR to be appalling. RomanR provides valuable info on the loads of these LHR flights, which you are more than welcome to go back to the comments made from them last winter to check the loads. After checking, ask yourself is the reduction from the 788 to an XLR warranted? AC can indeed increase these frequencies or at the very least put the 4x weekly in YOW over YHZ. It's clear AC wants nothing to do with YOW and this LHR route is just a "see? we're giving you a TATL, now shut up". YOW can in fact handle more capacity and more routes TATL, denying this gives me flashbacks of the skeptics such as yourself when AF announced their plans a few years ago. Now those people are eating their words.

There seems to be a pattern though I've noticed with AC. They don't give a damn until another carrier does something. YHZ-BRU or better yet, YYC-LHR staying DAILY on a WIDE BODY in the winter would never be a thing if it wasn't for WS. Since AC "can't find the demand to add more" then I hope TS adds more Europe from YOW, takes all this "little" demand, and runs them out of YOW. Enough is enough with this sub-par service just because they can't find the competition (NOT the demand) to justify it.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

It's clear AC wants nothing to do with YOW and this LHR route is just a "see? we're giving you a TATL, now shut up". YOW can in fact handle more capacity and more routes TATL, denying this gives me flashbacks of the skeptics such as yourself when AF announced their plans a few years ago. Now those people are eating their words.

There seems to be a pattern though I've noticed with AC. They don't give a damn until another carrier does something. YHZ-BRU or better yet, YYC-LHR staying DAILY on a WIDE BODY in the winter would never be a thing if it wasn't for WS. Since AC "can't find the demand to add more" then I hope TS adds more Europe from YOW, takes all this "little" demand, and runs them out of YOW. Enough is enough with this sub-par service just because they can't find the competition (NOT the demand) to justify it.

It's not about telling air geeks like us that they are offering a TATL. It's a shot over the bow for Air Transat to keep them from adding a bunch of other routes from Ottawa. They will have regular sales to keep the yield down. Helps keep Air France in check as well. Of course they don't care about us. They are a business.

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

It's not about telling air geeks like us that they are offering a TATL. It's a shot over the bow for Air Transat to keep them from adding a bunch of other routes from Ottawa. They will have regular sales to keep the yield down. Helps keep Air France in check as well. Of course they don't care about us. They are a business.

I didn't mean us as in the avgeeks. I meant us as in the folks of this city who are calling for more TATL, whether they are avgeeks or not. OAA, Ottawa businesses, and just your average Joe (like my family members) have been voicing for more routes. Of course AC doesn't care about anything except raking in the money, that we all know. Solo here is using AC's service levels as an indication of the YOW market which, I'm sorry to say, is ridiculous. AC never served YYJ for example before PD's expansion (or now for that matter). Now PD is doing daily in the summer and it is now year-round with very limited connections. Couldn't AC have done that let's say 4x weekly on a Max? Yes they can. But Solo here would have ran with this fact and said there is no market for YOW-YYJ because AC doesn't serve it. YOW-YLW started as 2x weekly on F8, then moved to 1x weekly then discontinued. PD is doing it now 6x weekly and already publicly stated it might go year-round with even less feed than YYJ. But according to this ridiculous logic, there is no market for YOW-YLW.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

It's not about telling air geeks like us that they are offering a TATL. It's a shot over the bow for Air Transat to keep them from adding a bunch of other routes from Ottawa. They will have regular sales to keep the yield down. Helps keep Air France in check as well. Of course they don't care about us. They are a business.

400 fewer seats/week yoy isn’t a shot at anyone. Seems if anything they’ve been shot. TS doesn't operate at that time of year. If anything it opens the door for them. Ditto for AF to add more 77W to scoop up those pax.

[JonToms]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

I've bitten my tongue until now, but if this sort of mockery, belittlement and twisting of words continues, I'll be heading for the exits. This place has traditionally been a place of avgeekery and healthy debates amongst aviation enthusiasts. You just may end up finding yourself "solo" on here.

Please don’t go anywhere Dominion301. I enjoy your content and informed comments here and across the other skyscraperpage forums. You would be missed.

[RomanR27]

Thanks for the note about the LHR loads I post fanofYOW. We'll see what happens but premium demand still seems to be strong, especially in the premium economy cabin. Also of note is that it seems AC is leasing out a slot next winter, as across the network they are down -7x net weekly at LHR next winter (-4x the LHR-BOM fifth freedom flight they eliminated, and now -3x YHZ). While YHZ is still daily in November, YOW is borrowing it's slot from YYZ (days 16) and YYC (day 4).

All that to say, AC could absolutely have made YOW daily this winter on the XLR (and still maintained YHZ daily).

Tomorrow's AC889 is full in economy and premium economy. Business is 27/31. AC888 is 22/24 in PY and 28/31 in J.

As a spotter alert, tomorrow's flights are operated with the Fly the Flag livery from the Olympics.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by acottawa

If that were the case there would be lots of day flights to meet passenger demand. In reality of the hundreds of transatlantic flights, maybe a dozen are day flights.

And the reason for that is pretty obvious.

Airline economics take precedence over passenger convenience. Airlines rather utilize their multi-million dollar assets 24 hours a day. That involves red-eyes to Europe and quick turnarounds. It's not for passenger comfort. There is nothing comfortable about being stuck at the back of a 450 seater 77W around 2am, somewhere over the Atlantic, unable to go to sleep.

Originally Posted by acottawa

Jet lag is much worse.

No it isn't. The vast majority of people can't sleep properly on a plane on a red-eye. That first day in Europe after a red-eye is almost always a waste of a day. You're in zombie mode most of that day. Unless of course you're one of the lucky few that fly business or first, and can sleep properly on a plane. Not many people fall in that category.

Originally Posted by acottawa

You’re waking up in Ottawa at your normal time (unless you are a shift worker), spending your entire Ottawa day on a flight, and arriving in the evening with an internal clock that thinks it is 4:00 pm.

What's worse?

Your Internal clock thinking its 1am vs actually being 6 am,
or your internal clock thinking its 4pm when in fact its 9 pm?

99% of people will tell you the former is much worse.

Originally Posted by acottawa

A more likely explanation is that Air Canada has an evening slot (probably a holdover from some past 5th freedom) that they don’t want to give up.

Absolutely. But that doesn't negate the fact that daytrippers are a more civilized way to fly across the pond. Just because you don't have more of them doesn't mean passengers hate daytrippers. They don't. Read the links below.

Originally Posted by solo748

this is sarcasm, right? I mean, you cannot be serious

lol.

I'm 1000% serious. You should read more.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/co...g-daytime-flights-to-europe/77548342007/

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-avoid-jet-lag-red-eye-compared-daytime-transatlantic-2024-3 (go to reader mode to bypass the paywall)

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1475623

[Truenorth00]

I've took the LHR day flight from YYZ like 20 years ago. Was amazing. But no airline will do this regularly. It requires them to park the aircraft overnight at Heathrow. Expensive. But probably cheaper than a morning slot at Heathrow. So maybe balances out.

I forget what time departure was. But I got to my hotel like 10-11 at night. Was in bed by midnight. And awake at 0630 for an 0800 meeting. Absolutely beats the red eyes. But clearly not the best for yield for an airline.

[YOWflier]

I don’t have any skin in the TATL daytripper debate (never done one, my ridicule was mainly about the frequency/connectivity), but if we’re going to talk jet lag mitigation and circadian rhythm reset, the single best natural way to accomplish this when going east is early sun/daylight exposure at the destination. Second is probably syncing meals to new time. Third would be activity. A morning arrival at destination would be better for these aspects vs a night time arrival.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

That is not what Dominion said. They mentioned that the timing of the flights was the surprise. And quite frankly, I find the 3x weekly on the XLR to be appalling. RomanR provides valuable info on the loads of these LHR flights, which you are more than welcome to go back to the comments made from them last winter to check the loads. After checking, ask yourself is the reduction from the 788 to an XLR warranted? AC can indeed increase these frequencies or at the very least put the 4x weekly in YOW over YHZ. It's clear AC wants nothing to do with YOW and this LHR route is just a "see? we're giving you a TATL, now shut up". YOW can in fact handle more capacity and more routes TATL, denying this gives me flashbacks of the skeptics such as yourself when AF announced their plans a few years ago. Now those people are eating their words.

There seems to be a pattern though I've noticed with AC. They don't give a damn until another carrier does something. YHZ-BRU or better yet, YYC-LHR staying DAILY on a WIDE BODY in the winter would never be a thing if it wasn't for WS. Since AC "can't find the demand to add more" then I hope TS adds more Europe from YOW, takes all this "little" demand, and runs them out of YOW. Enough is enough with this sub-par service just because they can't find the competition (NOT the demand) to justify it.

You seem to assume emotion where dollars dictate decision.

LHR slots, especially morning arrival slots are expensive. They are going to be selective. And with AF taking a chunk of international connections and TS taking a ton of O/D to London with Gatwick, I'm not sure what's left. This is to serve the die-hards who still want to fly AC. I'm sure most TATL frequent flyers are now loyal to AF in Ottawa. Especially if most of their destinations are in Europe.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWflier

I don’t have any skin in the TATL daytripper debate (never done one, my ridicule was mainly about the frequency/connectivity), but if we’re going to talk jet lag mitigation and circadian rhythm reset, the single best natural way to accomplish this when going east is early sun/daylight exposure at the destination. Second is probably syncing meals to new time. Third would be activity. A morning arrival at destination would be better for these aspects vs a night time arrival.

Depends on your intention at arrival. Not just jet lag.

Put it this way. Would you rather go to a meeting with no sleep or some sleep? That's effectively the choice given to average public servant flying Economy to LHR from YOW. If you're there for 1-2 days arriving in the night is alright. You get some sleep. If you're there for longer (say a week long conference), you're flying earlier anyway and arriving the day before any meeting, so arriving in the morning is alright. You have the whole day to settle in and can go to bed early.

Sure that doesn't work for high flying business class people who are ostensibly walking into lunch time meetings in London. But that's a smaller proportion out of Ottawa anyway. They'll connect through Toronto or Montreal or even Newark if they have to.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Depends on your intention at arrival. Not just jet lag.

Put it this way. Would you rather go to a meeting with no sleep or some sleep? That's effectively the choice given to average public servant flying Economy to LHR from YOW. If you're there for 1-2 days arriving in the night is alright. You get some sleep. If you're there for longer (say a week long conference), you're flying earlier anyway and arriving the day before any meeting, so arriving in the morning is alright. You have the whole day to settle in and can go to bed early.

Sure that doesn't work for high flying business class people who are ostensibly walking into lunch time meetings in London. But that's a smaller proportion out of Ottawa anyway. They'll connect through Toronto or Montreal or even Newark if they have to.

This seems exactly right. London direct is an economy flight for most so very much you'd prefer to get some sleep in London.

In reverse it's also night to get back to your own bed rather than do a redeye.

But the business traveller is probably going Air Canada anyway so it's the leisure where they are competing.

[solo748]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

I've bitten my tongue until now, but if this sort of mockery, belittlement and twisting of words continues, I'll be heading for the exits. This place has traditionally been a place of avgeekery and healthy debates amongst aviation enthusiasts. You just may end up finding yourself "solo" on here.

There's no mockery or twisting of any words. Go read your quotes -> I thought 10-12 weekly TATL was a sweet spot for YOW. I thought anything other than LHR would cannabalize CDG and be net-negative for YOW. You asserted YOW was absolutely underserved TATL, AF would continue to thrive with new (i.e., not London) TATL desinations from YOW, among other bullish posiitons

Knowing that, I was simply surprised to see you say you kinda expected AC's decision to go 3X weekly into LHR.

Nothing belittling, no mockery