Statistics Canada Reports II

[Chinook Arch]

Originally Posted by DavidK93

Calgary's got nothing on the coastal winter weather, so I guess we're the jerks!

Well, Calgary does have a lot more sunshine during the winter. Though, the coastal rain looks pretty good when it's -20C.

[SignalHillHiker]

A comparison of us and Iceland as far as tourism is concerned. It's informing a push for more European air connections.

[KnoxfordGuy]

I wonder why the population clock is showing population growth of 1000+ people a day again? It was plummeting before. I thought we were stalled/loosing population?

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by KnoxfordGuy

I wonder why the population clock is showing population growth of 1000+ people a day again? It was plummeting before. I thought we were stalled/loosing population?

Canadian population growth ticks up significantly as we approach summer as more immigrants prefer to move in warmer months. If you look at quarterly population change you'll see this pattern.

[Base]

I was also noticing the population clock really humming along recently.

[rdaner]

Would returning Iranians fleeing chaos be reflected?

[ue]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Ya, a bit harsh but I don't think it's untrue. Obviously it's fairly busy during the day due to employment but the city is devoid of life after that or on weekends. There isn'tt a single block of a complete street or where one can just sit and watch the crowds go by. One can certainly do it on Whyte but Whyte's success has drained the downtown. For a city of 1.7 million, it's downtown really is pretty awful.

The Ice District is a good start at a revival but the downtown was levelled to such an extent, added by the abomination of WEM, has probably killed the downtown for good.

Whyte Ave isn't even what it was pre-covid. Still lots of vacancies and failed starts, while there's been a dilution in quality of shops, bars, and other amenities.

I don't think it's particularly fair to blame Whyte Ave for Downtown's underperformance. Maybe that was the case 25 years ago when Whyte Ave really stuck out, even compared to other Prairie cities.

But Calgary just down the road manages not only a more vibrant and grown up version of Whyte Ave with 17th Ave, it also has a Downtown that is at least marginally busy outside of office hours (mostly in the Stephen Ave/Core/East Village area) and multiple other busy commercial urban areas that blow anything really have no Edmonton equivalents anymore. Inglewood, Bridgeland, Kensington, Marda Loop, Mission, the newer University District. Sure, you could argue Mission is like an extension of 17th/the Beltline but you could also say that about Garneau to Whyte Ave in Edmonton and yet 109 Street is an abomination in a way that 4th Street simply isn't. Calgary isn't much bigger, and has been close to Edmonton's size for basically its entire history, plus it had earlier disadvantages (semi-arid climate, shallow river, not the capital, not given the provincial university, etc). You could argue that Downtown Calgary has been given more advantages and while that's true, if the Whyte Ave analogy is to work, wouldn't that be to the detriment of 17th Ave's vibrancy? But clearly Calgary's population can support two bustling nodes within walking distance of each other and Edmonton's can't despite similar populations and demographic profiles.

Edmonton is simply more of a Costco and Boston Pizza kind of town, through and through. Its culture is so suburban, even in the core (both Loblaws have ample free parking, as does the Save-On, Best Buy, London Drugs, Staples, Fjallraven, and MEC) in a way that you don't even see in smaller Canadian cities like Victoria, Winnipeg, Hamilton, or Halifax, but reminds me of Phoenix or Houston I suppose. Winnipeg and Hamilton are interesting in that they are both car-forward cities like Edmonton, but their history imbued them with a legacy urban culture that continues to this day (like LA and Detroit in the US)...which is why Downtown Hamilton and Downtown Winnipeg have their moments to shine (not to mention culturally distinctive urban locales like Wolseley or Old St Boniface in Winnipeg). Downtown Edmonton isn't like that. Whyte Ave could be if not for the souped up bikes revving up and down but that's Edmonton for you. There's half a block in West Wihkwentowin with some generic stucco 5-over-1s that wouldn't bat an eyelash in Portland that the urbanists in Edmonton are really trying to make a thing. I wish them well, but 124th Street has seen many Calgary would-be analogues surpass it in the past 30 years. I'm thinking the best we can hope for is an Upper Hillhurst situation, but I'd love to be wrong! It probably doesn't help that saying one-hundred-and-twenty-fourth-street out loud every time to refer to the main street feels like gagging on a stank dick but what do I know. Edmonton, more than anywhere else in Canada, is a place I know the engineers are on top of it. Maybe once the slow tram opens it'll finally have its moment like Bonnie Doon was supposed to when the first phase of the Valley Line opened. RIP Strathearn Heights though... you never stood a chance with your 2007 grindset.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by ue

Whyte Ave isn't even what it was pre-covid. Still lots of vacancies and failed starts, while there's been a dilution in quality of shops, bars, and other amenities.

I don't think it's particularly fair to blame Whyte Ave for Downtown's underperformance. Maybe that was the case 25 years ago when Whyte Ave really stuck out, even compared to other Prairie cities.

This is very unfortunate to hear. I haven't been on Whyte since the early 2000s but at the time I thought it was easily a notch above 17th, and the vibe with UofA nearby added a lot. 17th has added a fair bit since then plus the rise in other nodes as you noted.

Once I got past the Calgary / Edmonton rivalry of my teens I came to realize the latter had a more robust arts/alt scene which was reflected in older areas. Sounds like that may not be the case so much anymore? Or is it just diluted?

As an aside wholeheartedly agree with having to say "124th st". Really kills the vibe! At least the quadrant system in Calgary led to important streets having one and two digit numbers...

[ue]

Originally Posted by niwell

This is very unfortunate to hear. I haven't been on Whyte since the early 2000s but at the time I thought it was easily a notch above 17th, and the vibe with UofA nearby added a lot. 17th has added a fair bit since then plus the rise in other nodes as you noted.

Once I got past the Calgary / Edmonton rivalry of my teens I came to realize the latter had a more robust arts/alt scene which was reflected in older areas. Sounds like that may not be the case so much anymore? Or is it just diluted?

As an aside wholeheartedly agree with having to say "124th st". Really kills the vibe! At least the quadrant system in Calgary led to important streets having one and two digit numbers...

I think in a lot of ways Calgary has just stepped up over the past 15 years. The new Glenbow will almost certainly be better than the RAM and AGA combined. There was never anything like Sled Island. Sure, Edmonton's Folk Fest is strong but so is every other Prairie city's. There's the Fringe and the Strathcona Theatre Scene which definitely sets it apart from the Beltline, but then again Winnipeg's Fringe is almost as good, and it's in the Exchange. Whyte Ave might have that one block of pretty old buildings, but it's simply not the Exchange.

17th Ave was I think structurally weaker historically, but there's been much stronger, more "grown up" infill in the past 20 years. Plaza 82, the building on Whyte Ave that famously had the Chapters, renovated their building with the big format bookstore in 1998. It was controversial, but marked a new chapter for Old Strathcona. Then in 2010, Hanson Square was built kitty corner to Tompkins Park on 17th, with the urban-format Best Buy and smaller-scale CRUs below (a reminder that Edmonton's Downtown Best Buy looks like something meant for Mississauga). Since Hanson Square (and really, even before, if you look at developments like Mount Royal Village) there's been the Canadian Tire, the Urban Fare, the West Elm, and a lot of high-density residential. It took a generation for the Southpark car dealership on Whyte Ave to kick the dust and even its impressive redevelopment has stalled. First phase built, but the only tenant willing to fill the ground floor is Paris Baguette, big with the UofA kiddos. In the meantime, the '98 Chapters became a Winners. The Princess Theatre closed during covid never to return. Metro Cinema nearby is better, but is straddled by stroads. The kids aren't going out because they're addicted to short term digital rot and Edmonton isn't the kind of town you need to go out and show off so the nightlife has been squeezed. Whyte Ave lost Lululemon, but got an upgraded WEM flagship as consolation. Lululemon maintains an urban-format store on 17th, moved recently from nearby 4th and 17th, where a Duer now sits. Duer recently opened in Edmonton at Southgate, Edmonton's attempt at Yorkdale I guess (even though the real luxury still got lured to WEM anyway).

124th Street. God what a disappointment. It was at the level Kensington was in the '90s (ok maybe I'm just being nice to 124th for no reason) and Inglewood circa 2010. The five-over-ones off 124th near Paul Kane Park are nice, but it's an Edmonton nice. So Calgary would do it better. Honestly, so would Winnipeg (see Railside at the Forks). But that's more to do with Edmonton being without a school of architecture for generations now, despite the UofA's prestige. Edmonton's urban planning has improved since the planning school opened in the early 2010s; the city has shined with missing middle infill in a way that other Canadian cities haven't. It may not be pretty, but it gets results.

I know Edmontonians like to talk about Calgary like it's an aberration. Cities in the range of a million plus people don't normally look like that. Sure, but you can look at that oversized skyscraper cluster downtown and know you aren't in Toronto. And once you get over that, Calgary does feel like a city of about its size with maybe elevated economic/cultural clout. But you can look at Dubai and understand this is not a Shanghai-class city. Even within Canada, the other metro in the same range as Alberta's cities, Ottawa, outperforms Edmonton when it comes to urbanism. Even Winnipeg and Hamilton do. Hell, it's more bite-sized, but I'd argue even Saskatoon is nicer. So it's not Calgary exceptionism.

You need to get to the Abbotsfords, Monctons, and Sudburies to really understand where Edmonton's coming from. And maybe take a golf trip to Arizona. Then it'll make sense. It's just not gonna be Calgary or Vancouver. There's a reason posts about Edmonton rarely engage people because if you like cities you don't care about Edmonton because Edmonton doesn't care about the urban. Which is unfortunate if you happen to be in Edmonton and care about these things.

[ssiguy]

^^^ Ya, Edmonton has always kind of reminded me of an overgrown Abbotsford which is certainly Canada's ugliest and deadest city that's not a remote resource town. It's an urban planning abomination and it literally has the downtown the size of a little town of 5,000.

I know this sounds really negative but in some ways I think Edmonton's downtown is beyond redemption. They laid waste to the city's historic core and when combined with a high crime rate, and WEM the damage has been so severe that I don't know how it will recover. Yes, it will probably improve somewhat but from the rock bottom place it's starting at, that doesn't say much. Edmonton's lone draw seems to be "it's cheaper than Calgary".

Calgary is so far beyond Edmonton in complete streets, vibrancy, interesting neighbourhoods, and urbanism that it really is quite remarkable bordering on bizarre. They are in the same province only 300km apart but worlds away. Calgary is already a great city and just keeps getting better so the gap between the 2 will just continue to grow.

[DavidK93]

Originally Posted by ue

I think in a lot of ways Calgary has just stepped up over the past 15 years. The new Glenbow will almost certainly be better than the RAM and AGA combined. There was never anything like Sled Island. Sure, Edmonton's Folk Fest is strong but so is every other Prairie city's. There's the Fringe and the Strathcona Theatre Scene which definitely sets it apart from the Beltline, but then again Winnipeg's Fringe is almost as good, and it's in the Exchange. Whyte Ave might have that one block of pretty old buildings, but it's simply not the Exchange.

17th Ave was I think structurally weaker historically, but there's been much stronger, more "grown up" infill in the past 20 years. Plaza 82, the building on Whyte Ave that famously had the Chapters, renovated their building with the big format bookstore in 1998. It was controversial, but marked a new chapter for Old Strathcona. Then in 2010, Hanson Square was built kitty corner to Tompkins Park on 17th, with the urban-format Best Buy and smaller-scale CRUs below (a reminder that Edmonton's Downtown Best Buy looks like something meant for Mississauga). Since Hanson Square (and really, even before, if you look at developments like Mount Royal Village) there's been the Canadian Tire, the Urban Fare, the West Elm, and a lot of high-density residential. It took a generation for the Southpark car dealership on Whyte Ave to kick the dust and even its impressive redevelopment has stalled. First phase built, but the only tenant willing to fill the ground floor is Paris Baguette, big with the UofA kiddos. In the meantime, the '98 Chapters became a Winners. The Princess Theatre closed during covid never to return. Metro Cinema nearby is better, but is straddled by stroads. The kids aren't going out because they're addicted to short term digital rot and Edmonton isn't the kind of town you need to go out and show off so the nightlife has been squeezed. Whyte Ave lost Lululemon, but got an upgraded WEM flagship as consolation. Lululemon maintains an urban-format store on 17th, moved recently from nearby 4th and 17th, where a Duer now sits. Duer recently opened in Edmonton at Southgate, Edmonton's attempt at Yorkdale I guess (even though the real luxury still got lured to WEM anyway).

124th Street. God what a disappointment. It was at the level Kensington was in the '90s (ok maybe I'm just being nice to 124th for no reason) and Inglewood circa 2010. The five-over-ones off 124th near Paul Kane Park are nice, but it's an Edmonton nice. So Calgary would do it better. Honestly, so would Winnipeg (see Railside at the Forks). But that's more to do with Edmonton being without a school of architecture for generations now, despite the UofA's prestige. Edmonton's urban planning has improved since the planning school opened in the early 2010s; the city has shined with missing middle infill in a way that other Canadian cities haven't. It may not be pretty, but it gets results.

I have similar observations. I went to school in Edmonton 16 years ago and usually visit every 2 or 3 years. It feels like the core of the city hasn't changed much over the years. Whyte ave is almost the same as when I visited it the first time 20 years ago.
The downtown maybe even feels less busy. A bunch of focus was put on the ICE district, but on my last visit I went to check out it out, I was almost the only person there. There were businesses, but no people.

In those same 20 years Calgary's inner core has exploded. 17th ave used to feel like a junior version of Whyte and now feels better. I think Whyte ave still has more bars, but 17th is busier during weekdays as it's become a street that also supports the area residents. Those urban format stores you mentioned, and there was an urban format Sobeys opening during my last visit. I don't have stats but It appears Calgary's downtown population has increased much faster than Edmonton's and is the reason for the difference.

BTW, I visited your fair city last summer and enjoyed my visit. Winnipeg's an underrated city.

[ue]

I don't actually think in many ways that Calgary and Edmonton are that different. There is a suburban culture in Calgary too. Tuscany and Terwillegar are like fraternal twins. But Calgarians have pride in their city and a desire to make it into something. Edmonton isn't a go-getter that way.

Something I've thought about with Winnipeg is that none of its main streets are at the level of Whyte Ave, let alone the top tier ones in Calgary, but they are so much more interesting. Winnipeg is self-deprecating, but it uses towards more productive ends rather than just whining about not being Calgary. Winnipeg doesn't care if its cold and boring, it has better river skating than Ottawa, better winter festivals than "Festival City" Edmonton, and its citizens are better at dressing for winter and even making it fashion. I've noticed an uptick in Inuit and Indigenous-made parkas in Winnipeg. There's a scrappiness to Winnipeg because it knows that it gets overlooked and has to fend for itself. Edmonton is too fat from petrol to know how to do that. The result is that even if Winnipeg is fairly suburban and car-centric, there's still a pridefulness and making the most out of it that Edmontonians lack. Look at Wolseley -- the Four Squares are colourful, the street boulevards have vegetable gardens, in the winter there are lots of elaborate front lawn family skating rinks, snow sculptures, etc while in the summer people get out the trampolines, have the tall grass prairie gardens, etc. In similarly old, "crunchy" areas in Edmonton like the Highlands or perhaps Mill Creek/Ritchie there isn't this desire for residents to take the same pride and make the neighbourhood feel vibrant even when there aren't a ton of pedestrians meandering.

Edmonton offers a lot of great things and has its own appeals, but they are largely outside of the world of urbanism, aside from the odd progressive planning headline. I think a lot of people put their hopes on the Ice District and while it did eat up a huge swath of brownfield, the CRUs are just banks. The tallest building in Canada outside the GTA has a vacant food court at the bottom, but I guess Brookfield Place can't say much about that even if it's the hotter one. I'd argue that Winnipeg's True North Square is a similarly styled development to Ice District, albeit smaller scaled, and despite nobody knowing what the Sutton Hotel will look like, is more successful on the ground. But Winnipeg's a real city, not what happens when you add a million people to Moncton. There are no abandoned warehouse raves in Edmonton because there are no abandoned warehouses to conduct raves in and if there were nobody would be brave enough to do anything about it.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ue

You need to get to the Abbotsfords, Monctons, and Sudburies to really understand where Edmonton's coming from. And maybe take a golf trip to Arizona. Then it'll make sense. It's just not gonna be Calgary or Vancouver. There's a reason posts about Edmonton rarely engage people because if you like cities you don't care about Edmonton because Edmonton doesn't care about the urban. Which is unfortunate if you happen to be in Edmonton and care about these things.

SSP tends to be very oriented around current metropolitan populations but they don't mean a whole lot when it comes to urbanism. You can have a very nice city of 250,000 or a very undistinguished metropolitan area of 4 million. It's true that there are some population or market size constraints on some things, like you probably won't get a major subway system in a city of 100,000 people, although if you look around the world the exceptions are usually wider than what tends to come up in discussions.

I find Western Canada a bit parochial too. I don't mean to be negative but as an example you often hear people talking about how amazing Vancouver's transit system is, but their baseline for comparison is Seattle or Calgary. The SkyTrain has been enormously successful, and Vancouver's done well, but it's not one of the world's great transit systems, and a lot of the metro is car oriented. Calgary urbanism is sort of similar.

I mostly find all this interesting because I think the potential for Canadian cities is far above what we have now. We could have 4x the investment in transit, 4x more investment in the public realm, or vastly better zoning and development rules.

[DavidK93]

Originally Posted by ue

I don't actually think in many ways that Calgary and Edmonton are that different. There is a suburban culture in Calgary too. Tuscany and Terwillegar are like fraternal twins. But Calgarians have pride in their city and a desire to make it into something. Edmonton isn't a go-getter that way.

There's no shortage of suburban sprawl for either city. Calgary has a bigger busier core, and seems to have an energy, but both are young cities with their share of new suburbs. Heck, even Vancouver is more suburban than most people think. The core of Vancouver is dense and busy, but the further east you go the more suburban it gets.

As for Winnipeg, it has an interesting vibe. Not the bustling metropolis like a Calgary, and not quite the elegant old school federal feel of an Ottawa, but something like a cross between the two. I can't quite out my finger on it, but a comfortable urban vibe.

[niwell]

Thanks for your observations ue. It’s a real shame Edmonton hasn’t managed to capitalize on its strengths which were very apparent to me in the early 2000s. Sled island vs folk fest is a pertinent one as I have lots of friends in the music industry (through my wife who used to work for an indie label). You don’t have to guess which one they want bands they manage to be at!

[ue]

There are definite strengths in Edmonton as a city. Here's some off the top of my head

- In the 2000s, there was far more urban infill in Calgary vs Edmonton but I do think that gap has closed and Edmonton has been pushing further with inventive missing middle solutions that add fine-grained density that's also more affordable to build.

- The live theatre scene is only rivalled by Winnipeg on the Prairies.

- It's cliche I know but the river valley system. Even Calgarians know the river valley in Edmonton is that river valley. It, with the integrated creek trail system is such a recreational asset. The level of integrated accessibility to communities is something underappreciated. Hamilton's Escarpment, for example, is kind of a similar vibe to the river valley as an urban recreational asset except it has all those waterfalls so you'd think it would want to make extra sure its accessible to Hamiltonians and all those Torontonians that stumble their way down the QEW each weekend to overcrowd the parking lots of a 0.7km hike. But there's a shocking lack of integration with surrounding urban neighbourhoods and a lack of interconnectivity between sites that allow for people to wander between areas. There's a shocking lack of connection between Downtown Hamilton and up the Escarpment with trails and paths up/down. It's really just a toss -- heads Claremont Access, tails Arkledun Ave if, god forbid, you want to walk from Downtown Hamilton up to the iconic Sam Lawrence Park lookout to take in the city you just walked up from. In Edmonton there'd be three different trails for pedestrians and cyclists through the trees in a likewise area (eg Downtown to Gallagher Park or the Walterdale Hill)

- The LRT system is so oddly underdiscussed because it's really a shining moment of progressive urban planning in North America. First modern light rail system and while it has been slower to build out than the C-Train, I would argue that Edmonton's LRT is a better designed system. I mean just the comically embarrassing Chinook C-Train situation that tried to get glossed over with a fancy new pedway... in Edmonton people complain if you have to cross the street to get to the mall from the LRT station. Each post-secondary institution is well integrated too, something lagging for the UofC and MRU (though not as bad as most American cities!). If Edmonton built Calgary's NW line, it would've happened 25 years later but you know not only would the UofC have a station (and not skirting the edge of campus) but so would Foothills Hospital, the University District, and Market Mall, because without those towers Brentwood strip mall doesn't really need a station and those towers could've wound up at Market Mall instead.

- A massive upgrade in cycling infrastructure in the past 10 years which has made urban cycling much safer and more accessible. It's no Montreal or Portland, but it's not bad! I'll be curious to see how the 132 Ave renewal goes.

- The skyline has gotten better and that's a blessing because too many Canadian skylines have been kneecapped by height limits that don't do anything. Perhaps owing to Edmontonian frugality, it also doesn't have the curtain walling you see in other Canadian skylines.

- There are charming neighbourhoods, and Whyte Ave is still nice, I just think, pound for pound, its an underperformance for a city in the same league as Calgary and Ottawa. Edmonton has grown a lot in the past 25 years, but despite the infill, despite the better cycling and expanded LRT, a lot of that growth has been in suburban (including mature suburban) areas. Stuff has happened Downtown but also, like another poster said, its emptier. City Centre is a dead mall. The Sobeys Urban Format was a serious loss and the middle section of 104th Street has really failed to take off with continuous vacancies in entire condo podiums. I guess the nightlife is better owing to the new arena, but its a nightlife catering to suburbanites coming in for a night on the town. And while I acknowledge their validity, I don't need to wait 30 minutes for a wood bench at Mercer Tavern for overpriced hipster burgers with a knife in them. At least downtowners have pet stores and dog parks now, which wasn't the case 12ish years ago. But to expand more on the positives...

- I will acknowledge that, despite its ample parking, the Brewery District has added a vital mix of amenities to the core of Edmonton in a way that I don't think its market could absorb in a more urban-oriented format. It's still transit, bike, and pedestrian accessible but you can drive, and the parking is free, which is a huge sell in central Edmonton because most still drive even if not all the time. Kinda like Toronto's Stockyards but a bit more suburban but more urban than Ottawa Train Yards I guess.

- Ritchie has really taken off and West Ritchie has a great (active) brewpub district. However the cute main street part along 76th is still just a cluster of strip malls at a corner at the end of the day, even if they have fun designs and cute local businesses. It's very Houston-coded IMO. It's the same kind of "aww isn't that cute, oh wait this is supposedly a large city, and we aren't in a trendy postwar suburb that got a makeover, shouldn't there be more than this?" Except you kind of are because, like Montrose and Houston Heights, Ritchie may have prewar buildings but it really filled in after WWII. Which is honestly the case for most of Edmonton's old neighbourhoods aside from Downtown and Boyle-McCauley. Garneau, Alberta Ave, the Highlands, Glenora, Westmount, even Old Strathcona herself and Wihkwentowin himself had fairly patchy built form up to the Second World War owing to Edmonton never recovering from the 1914 crash fully. There was a lot of land speculation that paved a lot of roads with people hoping to cash out and those who couldn't afford it buying plots further and further out. The City has archived satellite images from the 1930s-1940s that really show this. The reason why Jasper Ave west of 109th Street is so barren and hostile (though they are fixing that with the new streetscape) and relatively modern looking is because aside from the basilica, Jasper Ave was mostly empty before the Second World War, even if the intersecting streets in Wihkwentowin had homes, schools, apartments, light industry. This is a trend you see in a way with the speculative destruction of older parts of Edmonton only for boom to go bust and nothing but a parking lot 50 years later, 30 years later, 10 years later.

- Edmonton may never be willing to buy a designer bridge like Calgary did with the Peace Bridge, but nothing in Calgary will match the gothic romance of the High Level Bridge. Also that streetcar is so fun -- a genuine gem.

- Despite the disaster rebuild of the Stanley Milner Library, the City has done a great job with neighbourhood EPL branches, many with innovative architecture (eg Capilano Library, Jasper Place Library, Clareview Library). It's so underdiscussed compared yet a great amenity for Edmontonians. The new libraries in Winnipeg aren't as architecturally interesting... nor even the Calgary ones bar that Rocky Ridge one.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by ue

But Winnipeg's a real city, not what happens when you add a million people to Moncton.

I'm sorry but what an awful disparaging critique. Edmonton is a real city, it's just not the type of city you enjoy. Winnipeg has the benefit of booming much earlier than Edmonton (or Calgary) and thus has a building stock of both commercial and residential architecture that other Western Canadian cities do not possess. Edmonton didn't reach 100k until the early to mid 1940s and Calgary around 1946.

Edmonton is still the capital city of a province of approximately 5.1 million people. It has one of the top 5 universities in Canada. It has been overshadowed by Calgary for decades as Calgary is one of the wealthiest and fastest growing cities in Canada. Edmonton has a lot of the heavy industry and blue collar work related to O&G/petrochemical sector, Calgary gets the shiny HQ skyscrapers filled with high paying white collar managerial jobs, some of which are trophy towers by Canadian standards.

Edmonton should be celebrated for the massive amounts of missing middle housing created in the past few years and trying their best to transform it into a bike friendly city. It's a city in transition to make the core more urban and desirable.

Oh the Urbanity! visited Edmonton and did a dive into missing middle
posted March 2024
• Video Link
Update posted January 2026
• Video Link

City Nerd went to visit within the past year and as an American planner, urbanist had a pretty even handed take on Edmonton
posted July 2025
• Video Link

Not to mention expansions to Edmonton's ETS LRT system.

Winnipeg may never get an LRT system in my lifetime. And that's really unfortunate. I saw first hand in Kitchener-Waterloo how the ION light rail is helping to connect and accelerate development in the tri cities of Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge.

I enjoy Winnipeg (visited twice in both winter and summer) but was shocked at the horrible Portage and Main intersection that forced pedestrians underground until very recently. I had never seen the downtown core of any Canadian city so hostile to pedestrians. And that's only because the underground section in the core of Winnipeg needed millions in stabilization improvements and was no longer tenable.

Edmonton still has almost 50% more population in the city than Winnipeg, and the Metro/CMA is larger than Winnipeg by around 750,000.
edit: One of Edmonton's greatest strengths is the River Valley where one can walk, bike, hike for miles right in the heart of the city.

[ue]

Originally Posted by Wigs

I'm sorry but what an awful disparaging critique. Edmonton is a real city, it's just not the type of city you enjoy. Winnipeg has the benefit of booming much earlier than Edmonton (or Calgary) and thus has a building stock of both commercial and residential architecture that other Western Canadian cities do not possess. Edmonton didn't reach 100k until the early to mid 1940s and Calgary around 1946.

Edmonton is still the capital city of a province of approximately 5.1 million people. It has one of the top 5 universities in Canada. It has been overshadowed by Calgary for decades as Calgary is one of the wealthiest and fastest cities in Canada. Edmonton has a lot of the heavy industry and blue collar work related to O&G/petrochemical sector, Calgary gets the shiny HQ skyscrapers filled with high paying white collar managerial jobs, some of which are trophy towers by Canadian standards.

Edmonton should be celebrated for the massive amounts of missing middle housing created in the past few years and trying their best to transform it into a bike friendly city. It's a city in transition to make the core more urban and desirable.

Oh the Urbanity! visited Edmonton and did a dive into missing middle
posted March 2024
• Video Link
Update posted January 2026
• Video Link

City Nerd went to visit within the past year and as an American planner, urbanist had a pretty even handed take on Edmonton
posted July 2025
• Video Link

Not to mention expansions to Edmonton's ETS LRT system.

Winnipeg may never get an LRT system in my lifetime. And that's really unfortunate. I saw first hand in Kitchener-Waterloo how the ION light rail is helping to connect and accelerate development in the tri cities of Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge.

I enjoy Winnipeg (visited twice in both winter and summer) but was shocked at the horrible Portage and Main intersection that forced pedestrians underground until very recently. I had never seen the downtown core of any Canadian city so hostile to pedestrians. And that's only because the underground section in the core of Winnipeg needed millions in stabilization improvements and was no longer tenable.

Edmonton still has almost 50% more population in the city than Winnipeg, and the Metro/CMA is larger than Winnipeg by around 750,000.
edit: One of Edmonton's greatest strengths is the River Valley where one can walk, bike, hike for miles right in the heart of the city.

I spent 30 years in Edmonton. I do think I know it fairly well. The city does not value good design and most coming to Edmonton are not coming for Whyte Ave or the Ice District. There is just not the same level of interest in the urban. And that isn't to say there aren't urban highlights. It's big enough to have some. So does Houston. So does Salt Lake City.

You do not need to show me the same YouTube videos everyone interested in this stuff from Edmonton has seen because the city made enough planning headlines under Sohi for some nauseating urbanists to be like "wait Edmonton exists too!" If you look more at how Edmontonians talk, act, and use their city, and not how Sohi, Iveson, and Mandel spoke about what they want for Edmonton, it's just different. I also already highlighted the progressive planning changes in the past 15 years. The architecture still sucks, the main streets are empty, and people would rather drive still. Yes these things take time to change but unlike Calgary, which has shown itself capable of growing up, Edmonton remains stuck designing a city the size of Winnipeg and patting itself on the back for a good job for saving Whyte Ave in the '70s.

Kitchener-Waterloo is also not a real city it's SimCity. Sorry. This isn't just some checklist where if you get an LRT you're a real city. London, Ontario is more of a city but that's not really saying much. So is Detroit with its demonstrably bad transit. I'd argue even St Catharines is more of a real city. Kitchener is a real city if you're from Elora and that's about it.

Winnipeg's urban planning isn't great, although it's in a similar spot to how things began changing at the policy level in Edmonton around the turnover from Mandel to Iveson. But it's much older, and had more time to be a real city before the Perimeter changed the tone. So it has those embedded institutions that Edmonton lacks, that have been able to produce some great local culture. The Winnipeg way is realizing people forget about you so making something for Winnipeggers. The Forks is a great example of this, but so are Jeannie Cakes, Folk Fest Cookies, and Salisury House (which is not good btw! do not go!), so is EQ3 and Princess Auto -- all things that claim Winnipeg and are claimed by Winnipeggers. It probably helps that Winnipeg hasn't deindustrialized as much as you'd think (Canada Goose literally has a factory just outside the Exchange), and so there remains this local capacity for making things your own way. Edmonton has entrepreneurialism too... it gave Canadians Boston Pizza, Booster Juice, Earls, and the Brick after all! However, most Edmontonians don't know these are things started there, and none really claim their Edmontonness as they often move HQ to Vancouver or Calgary once things get serious. Winnipeg business sticks around more. Edmontonians do claim their green onion cakes though, that is the one exception keeping it from truly being the ghost kitchen of Canadian cities.

The Peg's neighbourhoods are generally more interesting than Edmonton's... Crescentwood, Wolseley, the Exchange, South Osborne, Old St Boniface, Elmwood, the West End, Centennial, Point Douglas, Old Tuxedo, etc. Whyte Ave is better than Osborne-Corydon overall, though. A lot of this comes down to history allowing for more local cultures to develop as well as, away from the highway-esque stroads, more fine-grained forms. Winnipeg also has large parks that rival and exceed Edmonton's. It's not an integrated cross-city, multi-use system with the same dynamic landscape as the North Sask river valley, but Edmonton also has nothing like Assiniboine Park. Kildonan and St Vital Park are both higher quality large parks than Hawrelak or Rundle Park in Edmonton (those are the closest analogues I can think of).

In a functional sense, large parts of Downtown Winnipeg are as, if not more, hostile to non-drivers compared to Downtown Edmonton. 100%. This is a mixture of Edmonton's progressive planning decisions and it not being so overbuilt over a lost future. However, Winnipeg has a lot more stuff from the remnants of that lost future and that's something neither Edmonton nor Calgary will ever be able to replicate unfortunately. Owing to a continuous architecture and design tradition, the newer architecture is also generally better. I would also argue, amenity-wise, Downtown Winnipeg has better bars and even though both kind of suck, the retail is also better in the immediate core (the big box stores in Wihkwentowin do compensate for this but it does mean Downtown Edmonton lacks embedded local high-quality retail spots like Into the Music, Toad Hall, Bison Books... even Winnipeg's Downtown MEC is urban-formatted to Portage Ave, though they'd probably do much better with a box at Polo or Tuxedo). There's also of course the Forks, which is massively successful as a local hangout in a way that nowhere else in Downtown Edmonton has been able to maintain on a consistent basis for decades. It is a bit hostile to get to as it's surrounded by a lot of parking, but that's in the early stages of redevelopment as we speak with architecture you'd never see in Edmonton but might in Calgary. Downtown Edmonton has better restaurants though both cities have great food in the urban neighbourhoods and suburbs.

You're so right about the transit. Winnipeg's transit is still better than an American city's of like size/vintage but it isn't great. Edmonton does that better, even with the buses (though shout out to Winnipeg's New Flyer for giving North America its buses). But I put that under the wing of the city's better planning overall. Even driving around Winnipeg is laughably annoying at times because the city has 12 different grid layouts rammed together, a bunch of rail yards that are a bigger barrier than the 401, a lack of real freeways lending to an overburdened network of stroads and many underbuilt major roads simply due to not having the capacity (Osborne, Sargent, etc).

I genuinely feel like you didn't fully read what I said because a lot of what you wrote I already brought up and my analysis is much more nuanced and in depth than yours. You're repeating a bunch of Wikipedia-esque facts that can be gleaned from years of SSP usage (including some you probably picked up from me over the years) and perusing some punchy YouTube videos, leading to a superficial understanding of Edmonton as a place.

The UofA has prestige but has been decimated by the UCP. Its arts & humanities departments have been gutted and there seems to be no architecture and design school on the horizon.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I know this sounds really negative but in some ways I think Edmonton's downtown is beyond redemption.

JFC. Hyperbole, much?

[Xelebes]

The problem with the "desirability" isn't the real thing going on in Edmonton. It's employment centres are spread out. Some of that comes down to geographical reality due to a large river valley. Some of that is due to how the railroads were built in Edmonton. Some of that is down to simple necessity of having chemical factories nowhere near the city centre. People come to Edmonton, find work in spread out places and they realise that they have lots of options to live. One might expect a transportation crisis with it being spread out, but that simple means people live closer to their work.

Desirability of a city centre is a hobby horse of this website, but it doesn't answer the question of why house prices are so low in Edmonton.