Statistics Canada Reports II

[zoomer]

Originally Posted by Harrison

Nah, if to qualify for a highrise, the building needs to exceed 8 storeys, then I think it's accurate. The VAST majority of infill here is 8 storeys and less, so that 'missing middle' typology. Our market just is not conducive to high rise concrete construction right now - cheap rents and higher construction costs - which makes wood-frame structures of a maximum 8 storeys way more economically viable (we are seeing a lot of them going up all over the city).

Thanks for explanation, I haven't been following the Edmonton market too closely.

8 storeys - I thought is was 12 to qualify as a high rise. If 8, you can add two more to downtown Victoria, the Hyatt Centric hotel and the ten storey Telus Ocean office building for a total of 10.

[Coldrsx]

Edmonton is a suburban city through and through more than anywhere else in Canada IMO.

It's also got a blessing and curse whereby it's the most affordable (also cheap) major housing market.

Rents are relatively low, condo prices below replacement, SFH plentiful and attainable and an underperforming Downtown.

Layer on a relatively high cost environment and there you have it.

[jc_yyc_ca]

Originally Posted by someone123

I am not sure of the source but years ago these lists used to be pretty accurate. Lately with the construction boom in Canada they aren't. The diagrams and database on SSP are missing a lot of buildings. Partly a lack of volunteers I guess, and partly there's so much construction it's hard to keep track of.

I tend to think it makes sense to count excavation as under construction as it's a major investment a developer is unlikely to make unless they intend to proceed. Digging a giant 40 foot hole is not trivial.

It might be a lack of photos for some of the construction sites. If someone from another city is updating the database, I'm guessing they want to see photos of the activity to know for sure. There' aren't any SSP mods from the Calgary area, but the count tends to be pretty accurate (only two buildings missing from the list)

On SRC people use either piles being installed or excavation as being u/c. Once in a while a project will stall after that stage but 95% of the time once they're at that stage it's a go.

[DavidK93]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Edmonton is a suburban city through and through more than anywhere else in Canada IMO.

It's also got a blessing and curse whereby it's the most affordable (also cheap) major housing market.

Rents are relatively low, condo prices below replacement, SFH plentiful and attainable and an underperforming Downtown.

Layer on a relatively high cost environment and there you have it.

This 100%. There’s no major city in Canada where it’s as easy to buy a SFH as it is in Edmonton. Selling condo units in Edmonton’s downtown is a challenge when for the same price you can buy a large SFH.
The other issue is downtown Edmonton itself. It’s the least nicest of the big 6 metros (sorry). Even if SFHs were more expensive, you’d have to get people to want to live downtown

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by DavidK93

This 100%. There’s no major city in Canada where it’s as easy to buy a SFH as it is in Edmonton. Selling condo units in Edmonton’s downtown is a challenge when for the same price you can buy a large SFH.
The other issue is downtown Edmonton itself. It’s the least nicest of the big 6 metros (sorry). Even if SFHs were more expensive, you’d have to get people to want to live downtown

Ya, there is a reason why Edmonton is so cheap, tons of cheap endless land to expand into and no appeal to live downtown. Calgary also has lots of land to expand but the downtown/inner city is booming and the population soaring because Calgary's downtown is worth the expense because it has so much to offer and is clean and safe. Considering they are only 300km apart, their downtowns couldn't be more different if they tried.

As far as what constitutes "under construction", CMHC does not consider any building so until it reaches ground floor. For SFH and townhomes it's basically immediate but for tall buildings and especially those with underground parking, it is a very lagging indicator.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

As far as what constitutes "under construction", CMHC does not consider any building so until it reaches ground floor. For SFH and townhomes it's basically immediate but for tall buildings and especially those with underground parking, it is a very lagging indicator.

CMHC don't publish the number of buildings under construction, or the number of storeys, so while it's theoretically relevant to the thread, it's doesn't address the discussion about towers under construction.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Chocolite

Here's a non typical stat. For kicks I've gathered a list of cities with 2 or more highrises under construction. Not a surprise that Toronto and Vancouver are the most active. Surprising to me is that Montreal isn't very active for a city its size. I thought they were having a highrise boom, but it must have dropped off. Another surprise was Quebec city. A lot of highrises, granted they're all ugly suburban builds, but they're still highrises.

I just checked the database for Vancouver, and it has 7 under construction Downtown, and I can find 15 more that are currently under construction that are missing. It's possibly a little more accurate for the rest of the city, but I think it's still missing about half of the current high-rise projects outside Downtown.

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Ya, there is a reason why Edmonton is so cheap, tons of cheap endless land to expand into and no appeal to live downtown. Calgary also has lots of land to expand but the downtown/inner city is booming and the population soaring because Calgary's downtown is worth the expense because it has so much to offer and is clean and safe. Considering they are only 300km apart, their downtowns couldn't be more different if they tried.

As far as what constitutes "under construction", CMHC does not consider any building so until it reaches ground floor. For SFH and townhomes it's basically immediate but for tall buildings and especially those with underground parking, it is a very lagging indicator.

Part of the 'safe and clean' perception of Calgary is due to Edmonton being the 'dumping ground' for social ills in Alberta and more or less the Yukon and NWT, given it is further north than Calgary and thus insulates that city from all of the associated social issues and also has a much higher prison population and all of that. Calgary also has the benefit of less regional competition thanks to annexations and generally fewer bedroom communities competing with non-residential tax revenue.

Long and short - I agree with you but just wanted to shed some light on why Edmonton's downtown struggles more than Calgary's.

[Harrison]

To add to my above post - Downtown Edmonton is definitely getting better via investment in more public spaces and nearly 3,500 housing units either under construction or in active planning. 'Vibes' are definitely better now than peak-Covid (2020-2024) but general social disorder is still higher than pre-2020 imo.

Once more new residents start filling in those new housing units, Downtown should see a feedback loop of more businesses opening up, sense of safety increasing due to more eyes on the street, etc.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Edmonton is a suburban city through and through more than anywhere else in Canada IMO.

It's also got a blessing and curse whereby it's the most affordable (also cheap) major housing market.

Rents are relatively low, condo prices below replacement, SFH plentiful and attainable and an underperforming Downtown.

Layer on a relatively high cost environment and there you have it.

Edmonton is blessed to be a city of over 1 million people and Metro area of around 1.7 million that's still affordable for the typical worker. I'm totally bullish on Edmonton even factoring in its downsides.

Some of the lowest rents and for purchase condos in Canada, even new build SFH are still reasonable compared to even Calgary. According to Zumper's Canadian Rent Report, Edmonton 1 bedroom apartments are roughly 29% cheaper than Calgary and 14-15% less expensive than even Winnipeg!

For relatively high cost environment, what costs are you referring to?
For going out and having fun, I recall restaurants and bars being around 15% cheaper in Edmonton than equivalent places in Calgary. Not sure about grocery prices but Calgary seemed to be 15-20-ish percent higher than southern Ontario.


Edit: just realized the 2025 pop. estimate for city of Edmonton was 1,238,295. Roughly 100k larger than I thought it was.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Chocolite

Here's a non typical stat. For kicks I've gathered a list of cities with 2 or more highrises under construction. Not a surprise that Toronto and Vancouver are the most active. Surprising to me is that Montreal isn't very active for a city its size. I thought they were having a highrise boom, but it must have dropped off. Another surprise was Quebec city. A lot of highrises, granted they're all ugly suburban builds, but they're still highrises.


Toronto 188
Vancouver 68
Montreal 31
Quebec-Levis 27
Calgary 23
Hamilton 12
Ottawa-Gatineau 11
Halifax 10
Kitchener-Waterloo 8
Winnipeg 6
Kelowna 5
Victoria 4
Edmonton 3



Breakdown of Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal's CMA
Toronto 143
Mississauga 15
Markham 10
Vaughan 7
Oakville 4
Pickering 4
Brampton 2
Newmarket 2
Richmond Hill 1

Vancouver 31
Burnaby 17
Surrey 8
Coquitlam 5
Richmond 4
New Westminster 3

Montreal 15
Laval 12
Longueil 2
Brossard 1
Terrebonne 1

Montréal isn't very active in big part because until last November we had a administration that was very dogmatic (not to mention also incompetent) that harmed developers and drove them in the suburbs or convince them to delay (in not abandon completely) their projects. We have a new more pragmatic mayor and we will give her time to turn things around to see how things go.

[Chocolite]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Some of the lowest rents and for purchase condos in Canada, even new build SFH are still reasonable compared to even Calgary. According to Zumper's Canadian Rent Report, Edmonton 1 bedroom apartments are roughly 29% cheaper than Calgary and 14-15% less expensive than even Winnipeg!
.

I am not sure if your comment is in relation to the lack of high-rises builds in Edmonton but if so, you answered it. Edmonton’s housing is cheap, and yes, it’s a blessing, but also a burden. That’s why there’s very little downtown development and almost no high rises. Single-family homes in the burbs are the cheapest of any city over half a million.

There are positives to having cheap single-family homes, but cheaper isn’t always better in every facet.

[Chocolite]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

Montréal isn't very active in big part because until last November we had a administration that was very dogmatic (not to mention also incompetent) that harmed developers and drove them in the suburbs or convince them to delay (in not abandon completely) their projects. We have a new more pragmatic mayor and we will give her time to turn things around to see how things go.

Interesting, I thought Montreal was busier in recent years and that it had slowed down recently, but it sounds like it’s the opposite that it’s picking up now that things have changed with the city administration?

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Chocolite

Interesting, I thought Montreal was busier in recent years and that it had slowed down recently, but it sounds like it’s the opposite that it’s picking up now that things have changed with the city administration?

It had been active before the last administration took over in 2017. Most projects already started and authorized went trough but eventually got finished and the new rules put in place by the administration (as well as their obvious aversion to developers) drove projects in the suburbs or simply postponed or canceled them.

We had a boom in the 2010's. The previous administration definitely contributed to kill it, but there were probably other reasons too for the slowdown. I am optimistic for the future, though (despite the Orange Idiot in the south...).

[someone123]

I was curious so I made up a map of known under construction projects in the urban core in Halifax and it added up to 28 highrises. At some point I should look at the suburban projects, but I'd guess the total is around 40.

The counts are always a bit uncertain but this excludes, for example, future phases of projects where only the first phase is under construction. Another part of what's going on is that the suburbs in particular have a lot of 12-15 storey multi-tower projects. Then again, there are a lot of 10s and 11s that don't get included.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Chocolite

I am not sure if your comment is in relation to the lack of high-rises builds in Edmonton but if so, you answered it. Edmonton’s housing is cheap, and yes, it’s a blessing, but also a burden. That’s why there’s very little downtown development and almost no high rises. Single-family homes in the burbs are the cheapest of any city over half a million.

There are positives to having cheap single-family homes, but cheaper isn’t always better in every facet.

My comment was merely hyping up Edmonton as one of the last bastions of an affordable big city. Very few Metros in Canada are still a place where the typical worker can thrive, and even be a homeowner with affordable condos. In my region, the mid range asking price for a condo is around $475,000. In Edmonton you can still find many asking under $250k.

I think you might be surprised by how much multi family housing there is in Edmonton. A large percentage of it was built when CMHC was involved during the 1970s-1980s. And more recently a sizeable percentage of multi-family units have been built since 2010 as well.

[kora]

Originally Posted by Wigs

In my region, the mid range asking price for a condo is around $475,000. In Edmonton you can still find many asking under $250k.

There are many condos in the heart of downtown Edmonton in the $150,000 range. Prices go as low as $120,000. You can get a 2 bed for under $200,000.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by kora

There are many condos in the heart of downtown Edmonton in the $150,000 range. Prices go as low as $120,000. You can get a 2 bed for under $200,000.

and that's amazing! In a city of 1.25 million and Metro of 1.7 million. More affordable than even Winnipeg.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by kora

There are many condos in the heart of downtown Edmonton in the $150,000 range. Prices go as low as $120,000. You can get a 2 bed for under $200,000.

There's also a lot of crap out there.

My 2005, 1bdrm, 716sqft is in the $215-220 range right now, with 2bdrms mostly in the 250-350 range depending on the unit, age, etc.

These prices are still depressed from 2020, where that same 215k unit was 289.

SFH/Th/Du is exceptionally cheap here in many areas, with a lot of folks opting for that over apartments condos.

[kora]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

There's also a lot of crap out there.

My 2005, 1bdrm, 716sqft is in the $215-220 range right now, with 2bdrms mostly in the 250-350 range depending on the unit, age, etc.

These prices are still depressed from 2020, where that same 215k unit was 289.

SFH/Th/Du is exceptionally cheap here in many areas, with a lot of folks opting for that over apartments condos.

The 1 beds in Edmonton for $150k are in the 450-500 sq.ft. range, which is pretty standard nowadays in Vancouver and Toronto.