Ottawa Bypass Corridor

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Your definition of congestion is not being able to speed, so what you claim is congestion is not really relevant to whether there is congestion.

If my car is put into 1st gear, that is congestion. If my car is put into second gear, that is also congestion. In fact, I need to be going at least 60 km/hr to be in 5th gear. So,if I come out of 5th gear, that is congestion.

If any section causes me to come out of 5th gear, which means I am slowing to below 60 km/hr, that is congestion. So, besides the overnight hours, when are those 22 hours that it isn't congested?

[DogsWithJobs]

Would increasing our public transit system coverage, thus reducing the number of car trips required on the 417 and 416, not be a bigger benefit than a new ring road?
Then we'd get better transit and less cars, instead of the same poor transit but with more cars?

I know someone who works in Stittsville and moved to Barrhaven because of how easy it is to commute that way already. This seems like a solution looking for a problem.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Even in winter, with clear roads, unless I drive in the really early AM, I have yet to not experience those 2 hours you speak of.

Next time you drive through Ottawa without stopping time it and let us know. I would be surprised if your delay compared to the speed limit is more than 10 minutes.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If my car is put into 1st gear, that is congestion. If my car is put into second gear, that is also congestion. In fact, I need to be going at least 60 km/hr to be in 5th gear. So,if I come out of 5th gear, that is congestion.

If any section causes me to come out of 5th gear, which means I am slowing to below 60 km/hr, that is congestion. So, besides the overnight hours, when are those 22 hours that it isn't congested?

Don’t count gears, look at your average speed. Even on an uncongested road you are going to have to drop gears for people who can’t merge, because of construction, a snow plough, etc.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by acottawa

There is a perfectly good highway running through Ottawa to serve the Trans-Canada crowd. The Ontario government is spending billions to widen it. When not under construction it is uncongested 22 hours a day. It makes no sense to spend billions and chew up thousands of acres of farmland so some guy from Sudbury can drive his pickup way over the speed limit to go to Montreal.

You're back on this again? I really wonder how much time you spend on the 417. I make 30-50 trips a week I'd say. 22 hours a day uncongested is simply laughable and terribly objectively factually wrong. Plus, the city will only grow from here, so the current congestion is only going to accelerate.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by DogsWithJobs

Would increasing our public transit system coverage, thus reducing the number of car trips required on the 417 and 416, not be a bigger benefit than a new ring road?
Then we'd get better transit and less cars, instead of the same poor transit but with more cars?

I know someone who works in Stittsville and moved to Barrhaven because of how easy it is to commute that way already. This seems like a solution looking for a problem.

Yes, a better transit system of express and local routes could mitigate the need for this bypass. Even a reliable LRT could mitigate it. Since Ottawa is not interested in either, the next thing is a ring road bypass.

Originally Posted by acottawa

Next time you drive through Ottawa without stopping time it and let us know. I would be surprised if your delay compared to the speed limit is more than 10 minutes.

Time is money. Especially on the long drive home. People while about taking that long to charge an EV....

Originally Posted by acottawa

Don’t count gears, look at your average speed. Even on an uncongested road you are going to have to drop gears for people who can’t merge, because of construction, a snow plough, etc.

Clearly you don't know how to drive. You opinion has become invalid.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by phil235

Live in Greeley, work in Kanata. Live in Russell, go to Algonquin. Live in Barrhaven, work at the wrong Amazon. That sort of thing. Which we would be encouraging.

These are so marginal as examples that you could give them personal jetpacks and it's still unlikely to a significant pattern.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by DogsWithJobs

Would increasing our public transit system coverage, thus reducing the number of car trips required on the 417 and 416, not be a bigger benefit than a new ring road?
Then we'd get better transit and less cars, instead of the same poor transit but with more cars?

I know someone who works in Stittsville and moved to Barrhaven because of how easy it is to commute that way already. This seems like a solution looking for a problem.

For one, I do get behind getting OC Transpo fixed and restoring people’s confidence in the transit system.
My friends in Ottawa tell me that people drive because they don’t find OCTranspo reliable.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Harley613

You're back on this again? I really wonder how much time you spend on the 417. I make 30-50 trips a week I'd say. 22 hours a day uncongested is simply laughable and terribly objectively factually wrong. Plus, the city will only grow from here, so the current congestion is only going to accelerate.

Sure. But there is opportunity cost. This proposed bypass from Perth to Embrun is about 90 km. Make that a dual carriageway with exits and we're conservatively talking $10-15M per km. Would you pick this over electrification and twin tracking of Trilium? Would you pick this over an entire suburban rail network using existing tracks? That's the scale of spending being discussed.

Does it suck that you get stuck in traffic? Absolutely. But somebody making 30-50 trips on the 417 isn't the typical case around which we make multi-billion dollar infrastructure plans.

[Dengler Avenue]

For now I prefer to make 417 consistently 8-lane until Metcalfe.
While not ideal, once started, that has to be done, to eliminate the bottleneck between Carling and Greenbank. That may help with rush hour traffic.

[Acajack]

I always do a double-take when I enter Ottawa on the 417 from the east near Hunt Club and those variable message signs that give you estimated driving times are showing 12-15 minutes to the 416 junction. I always think: geez, that is basically all the way across the city!

[Acajack]

Regarding cross-Canada traffic on the 417, I find plates from places other than Ontario and Quebec pretty rare on the Queensway.

And when you see them it's probably as likely they are people from other provinces or Americans visiting Ottawa, as opposed to people travelling all across the country.

I find the A-40 across Montreal, the A-30 southern bypass, and the A-20 going towards Quebec City have a lot more plates from a variety of provinces and states. This is also true of the 401.

In terms of the plates you see, the 417 is really an Ontario-Quebec highway.

Since my wife is from Northern Ontario, I've driven the 17 and the 11 many times. There too anything but Ontario and Quebec plates is fairly rare. Except maybe for transport trucks.

You can often drive all day all the way up 17 and 11 into NE Ontario and not see one personal vehicle that isn't from Ontario or Quebec.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Harley613

You're back on this again? I really wonder how much time you spend on the 417. I make 30-50 trips a week I'd say. 22 hours a day uncongested is simply laughable and terribly objectively factually wrong. Plus, the city will only grow from here, so the current congestion is only going to accelerate.

You keep pointing to temporary bottlenecks created by construction projects to widen the highway. I am looking at the traffic right now, in the middle of rush hour. it is green except for the construction bottlenecks on the West side between downtown and IKEA.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Clearly you don't know how to drive. You opinion has become invalid.

Whatever, can’t you troll some other city’s message board? I bet Utah needs a ring road.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

You keep pointing to temporary bottlenecks created by construction projects to widen the highway. I am looking at the traffic right now, in the middle of rush hour. it is green except for the construction bottlenecks on the West side between downtown and IKEA.

If Harley really uses the 417 30-50x per week, he's obviously going to experience traffic congestion far more than the rest of us.

I've had months where I've had to commute across town from the split to Ikea, at rush hour. Not fun. But also, there's no way I would argue to build a billion dollar bypass that would not even make a noticeable difference to that traffic. There are so many better transit and road projects inside Ottawa to spend that money on.

And really who cares if somebody from driving from Sudbury to Montreal (at peak for some weird reason) through Ottawa ends up with 15-20 mins delay because of traffic. That's not a problem worth billions to anybody in this city.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If Harley really uses the 417 30-50x per week, he's obviously going to experience traffic congestion far more than the rest of us.

I've had months where I've had to commute across town from the split to Ikea, at rush hour. Not fun. But also, there's no way I would argue to build a billion dollar bypass that would not even make a noticeable difference to that traffic. There are so many better transit and road projects inside Ottawa to spend that money on.

And really who cares if somebody from driving from Sudbury to Montreal (at peak for some weird reason) through Ottawa ends up with 15-20 mins delay because of traffic. That's not a problem worth billions to anybody in this city.

I really do, especially since my job was modified because of health issues five months ago. I am out and about driving around and keeping tabs on the construction industry and job sites for my company, rarely in the office.

My response to the rest of your comment is the same response I have had to everyone's comment on here so far I think? Why aren't you folks thinking about the future? Virtually every comment in this debate so far is based on the current situation, what is happening on the 417 this afternoon. This city will continue to grow rapidly, and will continue to be the worst city from a mass transit and freeway perspective in the entire country if we don't fix both sides of the equation. A broken Suburb-to-Core LRT network will not cut it. One East-West highway will not cut it when we have 300-500 thousand more people in the region in 20 years or so. Period. Full stop.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Regarding cross-Canada traffic on the 417, I find plates from places other than Ontario and Quebec pretty rare on the Queensway.

And when you see them it's probably as likely they are people from other provinces or Americans visiting Ottawa, as opposed to people travelling all across the country.

I find the A-40 across Montreal, the A-30 southern bypass, and the A-20 going towards Quebec City have a lot more plates from a variety of provinces and states. This is also true of the 401.

In terms of the plates you see, the 417 is really an Ontario-Quebec highway.

Since my wife is from Northern Ontario, I've driven the 17 and the 11 many times. There too anything but Ontario and Quebec plates is fairly rare. Except maybe for transport trucks.

You can often drive all day all the way up 17 and 11 into NE Ontario and not see one personal vehicle that isn't from Ontario or Quebec.

On 17 near Sudbury, I regularly see AB, MB, NB and NS plates on top of the ON and QC.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If Harley really uses the 417 30-50x per week, he's obviously going to experience traffic congestion far more than the rest of us.

I've had months where I've had to commute across town from the split to Ikea, at rush hour. Not fun. But also, there's no way I would argue to build a billion dollar bypass that would not even make a noticeable difference to that traffic. There are so many better transit and road projects inside Ottawa to spend that money on.

And really who cares if somebody from driving from Sudbury to Montreal (at peak for some weird reason) through Ottawa ends up with 15-20 mins delay because of traffic. That's not a problem worth billions to anybody in this city.

Imagine that was your life. Sure you could move, but what if your housing costs would skyrocket? What if your kids are doing well in the school they are in? How long would you need before you think "If only there was a bypass to get some of this traffic out of here"?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Harley613

My response to the rest of your comment is the same response I have had to everyone's comment on here so far I think? Why aren't you folks thinking about the future? Virtually every comment in this debate so far is based on the current situation, what is happening on the 417 this afternoon. This city will continue to grow rapidly, and will continue to be the worst city from a mass transit and freeway perspective in the entire country if we don't fix both sides of the equation. A broken Suburb-to-Core LRT network will not cut it. One East-West highway will not cut it when we have 300-500 thousand more people in the region in 20 years or so. Period. Full stop.

You're kinda right?

But also I see no evidence that a bypass so far from the core will really help. It really depends where those 300-500k go and what their travel patterns are. The bypass does nothing for anybody who works in the core. It does nothing if you live in Gatineau or South Keys. Etc. There's a presumption here that cross-town commutes are or will be a substantial amount of our traffic, such that moving them to a bypass will provide relief to the rest of the traffic. I just can't see it.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Harley613

I really do, especially since my job was modified because of health issues five months ago. I am out and about driving around and keeping tabs on the construction industry and job sites for my company, rarely in the office.

My response to the rest of your comment is the same response I have had to everyone's comment on here so far I think? Why aren't you folks thinking about the future? Virtually every comment in this debate so far is based on the current situation, what is happening on the 417 this afternoon. This city will continue to grow rapidly, and will continue to be the worst city from a mass transit and freeway perspective in the entire country if we don't fix both sides of the equation. A broken Suburb-to-Core LRT network will not cut it. One East-West highway will not cut it when we have 300-500 thousand more people in the region in 20 years or so. Period. Full stop.

I find a lot of people here are blind to that which they don't want to see.
They don't want to see that the LRT is not a viable option for most of the city.
They don't want to seethe existing highway will not get better,but will get worse.
They don't want to see that a good plan could see this highway help mitigate sprawl into areas that are sensitive.
They don't want to see that to be a big city, you still need highways.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You're kinda right?

But also I see no evidence that a bypass so far from the core will really help. It really depends where those 300-500k go and what their travel patterns are. The bypass does nothing for anybody who works in the core. It does nothing if you live in Gatineau or South Keys. Etc. There's a presumption here that cross-town commutes are or will be a substantial amount of our traffic, such that moving them to a bypass will provide relief to the rest of the traffic. I just can't see it.

Then build a g-- d--- f------ bridge!