Density in urban neighbourhoods

[Docere]

Posted this in the "post pictures of your city" thread but thought would move the discussion here.

Here are some more established inner neighbourhoods in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver.

Density in selected inner neighbourhoods (per sq km/sq miles):

TORONTO

Annex 10927 / 28308
The Beaches 6068 / 15120
Kensington-Chinatown 12235 / 31696
Little Portugal 12950 / 33549
North Riverdale 6529 / 16914
Roncesvalles 9688 / 25088
South Parkdale 15620 / 40466
South Riverdale 9028 / 23387
Wychwood 8231 / 21323
Yonge-St. Clair 11262 / 29176

MONTREAL

Cote-des-Neiges 8462 / 21917
NDG 7762 / 20104
Outremont (borough) 6221 / 16114
Park Extension 21000 / 55000
Le Plateau-Mont-Royal (borough) 13063 / 33834
Rosemont-La Petite-Patrie (borough) 8919 / 23100

VANCOUVER

Fairview 10187 / 26391
Grandview-Woodland 6556 / 16918
Hastings-Sunrise 4321 / 11196
Kitsilano 7883 / 20418
Mount Pleasant 8906 / 23072
Riley Park 4603 / 11904
West End 23838 / 61741
West Point Grey 2840 / 7358

* I've used officially defined neighbourhoods in Toronto and Vancouver but relied on Wikipedia for Montreal and used a mix of neighbourhoods and boroughs (which are often larger than in other cities). I removed one thinly populated census tracts from South Parkdale (south of the Gardiner Expressway and another from South Riverdale (south of Eastern Avenue). They take up 40-70% of the "official" neighbourhood populations but each contain about 500 people.

[SignalHillHiker]

In St. John's, most of the census tracts in neighbourhoods inside Empire Avenue (everything from Georgestown to Rabbittown, which look a century apart in age) range from 2,500-6,000 people/km2. It just depends how much commercial and parkland happens to be in that exact tract. These would be rowhouses, duplexes, and SFD.

We don't really have any apartment tower neighbourhoods. The closest-to-that we have would be areas like Home Port off Torbay Road (2,650) and Pleasantville (tract is bizarrely enormous and is probably 9/10ths wilderness/the city's dump, so comes in just under 1,000).

Outside of that you can find pockets almost as dense, but most tracts will be around 1,700.

Most ways to measure St. John's include huge stretches of wilderness and parkland, but the Population Centre cuts it reasonably close to just the built-up areas. It includes everything from St. John's proper to the farthest exurbs in Conception Bay South. And that's 1,043.

The City of Mount Pearl is completely surrounded by St. John's and measures 1,436. That should be more or less what it will look and feel like anywhere outside the core in St. John's proper as well.

[Drybrain]

As of the last census, most of the central census tracts in Halifax were in the mid-to-high single digits, with the exception of 2050008 (this area), with 10,325 per sq km, and 2050004.02 (here) with 11,340 per sq km.

These numbers reflect data collected in 2020 for the 2021 census, though, and I suspect the numbers in 2026 will be substantially higher all over, given the huge amount of development in the past half-decade, which has disproportionately happened in the urban core. Estimates for the period between 2021 and 2024 show most central tracts growing between 20 and 40 percent in those three years alone, and developments has been keeping pace for the oast two as well. I think this city and a lot of others are going to find a stark difference between the two census, in a lot of ways, density among them.

[Brick&BRT]

https://www.tomforth.co.uk/circlepopulations/?lat=49.89252&long=-97.13684&distance_km=3

Above is a neat tool I've been playing around with; for Canadian cities it seems to be accurate. It's neat to be able to set a radius and get a population estimate for a particular chunk of your city.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

As of the last census, most of the central census tracts in Halifax were in the mid-to-high single digits, with the exception of 2050008 (this area), with 10,325 per sq km, and 2050004.02 (here) with 11,340 per sq km.

These numbers reflect data collected in 2020 for the 2021 census, though, and I suspect the numbers in 2026 will be substantially higher all over, given the huge amount of development in the past half-decade, which has disproportionately happened in the urban core. Estimates for the period between 2021 and 2024 show most central tracts growing between 20 and 40 percent in those three years alone, and developments has been keeping pace for the oast two as well. I think this city and a lot of others are going to find a stark difference between the two census, in a lot of ways, density among them.

The inner Halifax census tracts are drawn up in such a way that they don't match neighbourhood boundaries well. For example, probably the most densely populated area is paired with the Citadel and Commons, so the apparent density is just a fraction. Another one has the port tacked on, etc.

Then when you add in the huge growth the numbers are far off from the current reality.

I think Halifax will soon have some pretty large contiguous areas with population densities comparable to vibrant parts of big cities, if it's not already there. Something like a square kilometer with 10,000-15,000 people in it. Some parts of Dartmouth might hit this too.

One funny irony is that the fast growth of 2016-2021 only started bringing some of those areas up to densities seen in the 1941 census, which itself likely had large WW2-era undercounts in the city. The central parts are probably above peak 1941 levels now though.

[jc_yyc_ca]

I was going to do some for Calgary, but none of the census tracts match up completely with a neighborhood, so I guess it's kind of pointless.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by jc_yyc_ca

I was going to do some for Calgary, but none of the census tracts match up completely with a neighborhood, so I guess it's kind of pointless.

The excellent Census Mapper, developed by Jens van Bergmann in Vancouver, and now in a new version, allows you to see density maps down to the block level, and has data back to the 1996 census, so if you can be bothered to add up the data you can match any neighborhood data you like, and see change over time.

[someone123]

One thing that stands out about the census mapper is how some university residences show up as a population of 0. I was wondering about this. One large block in Halifax with around 2,000 residence spots shows up as 0 population density.

I wonder how much it impacts other forms of student housing like apartments that may be rented to students who on paper maintain a primary residence back home with their parents or similar.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by someone123

One thing that stands out about the census mapper is how some university residences show up as a population of 0. I was wondering about this. One large block in Halifax with around 2,000 residence spots shows up as 0 population density.

I wonder how much it impacts other forms of student housing like apartments that may be rented to students who on paper maintain a primary residence back home with their parents or similar.

Stats Canada says "Students who are away at school or for a summer job should be included on their parents' questionnaire if they return to live with them at any other time of the year.

Students living elsewhere all year, such as in an apartment or shared housing, and who do not return to live at their parents' home should be included on the questionnaire at their usual place of residence."

So just as locations with a student residence may have a low or negligable count, residential neighbourhoods may show a higher popualtion than is true when university is in session.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Docere

Posted this in the "post pictures of your city" thread but thought would move the discussion here.

Here are some more established inner neighbourhoods in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver.

...

VANCOUVER

Fairview 10187 / 26391
Grandview-Woodland 6556 / 16918
Hastings-Sunrise 4321 / 11196
Kitsilano 7883 / 20418
Mount Pleasant 8906 / 23072
Riley Park 4603 / 11904
West Point Grey 2840 / 7358
...

Not to criticize, but why did you leave out the densest neighbourhoods (e.g. West End, Coal Harbour)? Just wondering. I wouldn't necessarily include West Point Grey and even some of the others as inner city neighbourhoods either, they are older suburban.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Stats Canada says "Students who are away at school or for a summer job should be included on their parents' questionnaire if they return to live with them at any other time of the year.

Students living elsewhere all year, such as in an apartment or shared housing, and who do not return to live at their parents' home should be included on the questionnaire at their usual place of residence."

So just as locations with a student residence may have a low or negligable count, residential neighbourhoods may show a higher popualtion than is true when university is in session.

It may be true that it goes in both directions, but there isn't any sort of symmetry there since it's going to go much farther in one direction than the other. University students tend to be a fairly narrow age range covering 4ish years in the late teens and early 20s. So a residential nabe will have plenty of households without someone of that age range (and not everyone in that age range leaves home for uni). But a university residence can house hundreds of people in a single building and none would be counted since typically uni residences are specifically for people there temporarily during the school year.

So a residential area that loses a couple people during the school year isn't going to be much different while an student heavy area gaining hundreds or thousands during the school year will be noticeably livelier. In other words, not including students living in residence is much more misleading for student-heavy areas for 2/3 of the year in terms of the urban experience on the ground.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

It may be true that it goes in both directions, but there isn't any sort of symmetry there since it's going to go much farther in one direction than the other.

Some schools are commuter schools too and some are less so. Dalhousie was at one point around half out of province students, and it has around 20,000, a pretty big shift for the inner city and for that neighbourhood in particular. There is also SMU nearby. That part of town looks low to mid density in the census but the reality is probably much higher. Even many houses are student apartments. The peninsula probably has about 30,000 students.

It's also not an even impact across cities since some have more suburban campuses and some have urban campuses. It probably has an impact around McGill for example, but UBC/SFU wouldn't impact inner city Vancouver so much.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Architype

Not to criticize, but why did you leave out the densest neighbourhoods (e.g. West End, Coal Harbour)? Just wondering. I wouldn't necessarily include West Point Grey and even some of the others as inner city neighbourhoods either, they are older suburban.

Maybe the definition of "inner city" in this instance means neighbourhods outside the downtown core. For Vancouver, I would put divide downtown Vancouver into 2 neighbourhoods - The West End, Downtown Vancouver, which includes sub areas like Downtown South, Gastown, etc.

I would include Lonsdale in North Van as more inner city, so I would include it in his list.

[Docere]

Was getting outside the immediate downtown (note that Toronto was more even more "penalized" by my doing so). But the West End's identity goes back to the city's founding days. Anyway its population density is 23838 per sq km.

The density really drops off at 16th Avenue it seems. Riley Park does seem however pretty representative of "mid-Vancouver" if one can speak of it.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Docere

Was getting outside the immediate downtown (note that Toronto was more even more "penalized" by my doing so). But the West End's identity goes back to the city's founding days. Anyway its population density is 23838 per sq km.

The density really drops off at 16th Avenue it seems. Riley Park does seem however pretty representative of "mid-Vancouver" if one can speak of it.

Yes, I wanted to point out that you weren't listing the densest and most urban areas, but perhaps there was a reason. The West End, along with Strathcona, and Mount Pleasant all go back to the city's early days. West Point Grey however, was a separate municipality until 1929, and is several km west of downtown. I live in that "Mid-Vancouver" area, and it is an important transition area, rapidly densifying.

[Docere]

I'm guessing Park Extension is the densest low-rise neighbourhood in Canada?

[MonkeyRonin]

Reposting this from last year, but on this topic, here are some of Canada's densest neighbourhoods. From the City of Toronto's neighbourhood profiles, it has 4 neighbourhoods with population density levels exceeding 40,000/sqkm, as of the 2021 census:


North St. James Town
Population: 18,535
Density: 44,602/sqkm


Yonge-Doris (the eastern half of North York Centre)
Population: 20,160
Density: 44,126/sqkm


Church-Wellesley (adjacent to St. James Town above)
Population: 22,320
Density: 40,755/sqkm


North Toronto (Yonge & Eglinton area)
Population: 15,885
Density: 40,018/sqkm



There are also another 5 neighbourhoods with densities of over 20,000/sqkm:

Wellington Place (Entertainment District area)
Population: 25,570
Density: 26,254/sqkm

Harbourfront
Population: 28,135
Density: 25,178/sqkm

Bay-Cloverhill (adjacent to Church-Wellesley)
Population: 16,670
Density: 25,130/sqkm

Downtown Yonge East (adjacent to Church-Wellesley)
Population: 17,700
Density: 22,532/sqkm

Regent Park
Population: 12,750
Density: 19,995/sqkm (close enough)

Source: https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/d...on=&lat=43.644638&lng=-79.428632&zoom=14


Now, also worth noting that a lot of these neighbourhoods are pretty arbitrarily defined and can be weirdly small which can give an apparent boost to the density figures. Vancouver's "official" neighbourhoods meanwhile tend to be larger in size (with less statistical granularity as a result - eg. Yaletown and Olympic Village would exceed >20,000/sqkm but aren't considered "neighbourhoods" in the official sense), and I've been having a hard time finding data for many of Montreal's neighbouhoods; but a few other Canadian neighbourhoods in this density range would include:

West End, Vancouver
Population: 47,200 (2016)
Density: 23,838/sqkm

Shaughnessy Village, Montreal
Population: 15,677 (2016)
Density: 22,396/sqkm

Park Extension, Montreal
Population: 33,800 (2006)
Density: 21,000/sqkm

[Docere]

Not a fan of these rinky-dink "neighbourhoods" the City of Toronto creates to reach some sort of population/Census Tract number parity. They seem to think once there's 20,000 it's a "neighbourhood." "Yonge-Doris" is still part of Willowdale, it didn't "separate" from Willowdale because some condos went up. But maybe easier for social planning etc. (End of rant).

Anyway all these areas along the waterfront was one large area until recently (I excluded the Island census tract). This is a contiguous area that pretty meets the 20000 per sq km criteria.

Waterfront Communities

Population: 84,684
Density: 19925 per sq km

[giallo]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Reposting this from last year, but on this topic, here are some of Canada's densest neighbourhoods. From the City of Toronto's neighbourhood profiles, it has 4 neighbourhoods with population density levels exceeding 40,000/sqkm, as of the 2021 census:


North St. James Town
Population: 18,535
Density: 44,602/sqkm


Yonge-Doris (the eastern half of North York Centre)
Population: 20,160
Density: 44,126/sqkm


Church-Wellesley (adjacent to St. James Town above)
Population: 22,320
Density: 40,755/sqkm


North Toronto (Yonge & Eglinton area)
Population: 15,885
Density: 40,018/sqkm



There are also another 5 neighbourhoods with densities of over 20,000/sqkm:

Wellington Place (Entertainment District area)
Population: 25,570
Density: 26,254/sqkm

Harbourfront
Population: 28,135
Density: 25,178/sqkm

Bay-Cloverhill (adjacent to Church-Wellesley)
Population: 16,670
Density: 25,130/sqkm

Downtown Yonge East (adjacent to Church-Wellesley)
Population: 17,700
Density: 22,532/sqkm

Regent Park
Population: 12,750
Density: 19,995/sqkm (close enough)

Source: https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/d...on=&lat=43.644638&lng=-79.428632&zoom=14


Now, also worth noting that a lot of these neighbourhoods are pretty arbitrarily defined and can be weirdly small which can give an apparent boost to the density figures. Vancouver's "official" neighbourhoods meanwhile tend to be larger in size (with less statistical granularity as a result - eg. Yaletown and Olympic Village would exceed >20,000/sqkm but aren't considered "neighbourhoods" in the official sense), and I've been having a hard time finding data for many of Montreal's neighbouhoods; but a few other Canadian neighbourhoods in this density range would include:

West End, Vancouver
Population: 47,200 (2016)
Density: 23,838/sqkm

Shaughnessy Village, Montreal
Population: 15,677 (2016)
Density: 22,396/sqkm

Park Extension, Montreal
Population: 33,800 (2006)
Density: 21,000/sqkm

Some really good density here.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Park Extension, Montreal
Population: 33,800 (2006)
Density: 21,000/sqkm

This I believe is the densest low-rise neighbourhood in Canada. And it's not some "charming" Plateau-type area but rather a part of the city that wasn't built up until the 1940s and 1950s.