[Saint John, NB] North End Developments

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

The City of Saint John's North End Neighbourhood Plan

There's been a lot of interesting development issues that have been discussed regarding the North End on this forum for a long time. Even on the main Canada forum, the "before and after" photos of Saint John's Main Street photos have been shared many times as an example of disastrous planning decisions... (and no, I don't mean before and after the bike lanes)

It's good to see the North End getting more attention from the city. The North End should be a more walkable, livable, and desirable neighbourhood to live in.

Would be great to see this area rich in history become a much more densely populated part of this city again.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

To quote a post from councillor Barry Ogden on Facebook:

The Public Stairs on Main Street will be rebuilt next year. We are looking at ,with a couple groups, restoring St. Peter's Field. The marigolds will be returning to Main Street(we also do 45 marigold gardens throughout our community).The Old Forum Site along with the Huggard Property sites and the end of Shamrock Park ( Newman area)and a property on Metcalf Street(apartment building in progress)have all been purchased and will have housing.

The two corners on Douglas and Main have been purchased and the church that is there is being turned into an apartment building and being added to. Doreen Fitzpatrick and friends have created beautiful sunflower murals on Main Street.The new north end school on Rope Walk Road (K-5) will open in the fall of 2027.We are trying to get a building built on the old Sears/ Zellers property and completly rebuild the parking lot and traffic at Landsdown Plaza , with streets and a bigger bus stop.

We have to make our city safer and cleaner and we need to have far more post secondary students like Fredeicton and Moncton have. We are so far behind and that is provincial tax dollars that are not staying in Saint John.


The trail at Robertson Square(now restored, including the deck and playground) on Bridge Street has a number of people who are homeless and they are moving, hopefully to our new mini home sites.

There have been a number of derelict buildings torn down, the most recent on Adelaide street.The last boarded up building on Bridge street now has been purchased and is being refurbished. There are new pickle ball courts at Shamrock . We have restored and created a few more murals and have cleaned a number of areas and painted more building so, fences etc as we have all over the city.

It would be nice to have Rockland Road opened again as a Pedway to go to Fort Howe and have a commemoration to the " Friendship Treaties" signed with the 5 tribes of the Wabanaki Confederacy.

The NB Museum is scheduled to open 2028 and there are number of houses being restored on Douglas Avenue.It would be great to bring the trams back to Robertson Square on Bridge street and the riverboat at Saint John Marina run tours from Bridge Street and tour Pokiok,Milford,Dominion Park and Millidgeville.

There is a lot of land in the Pokiok area overlooking the Saint John / Wolastok River open for development."

Here are some of the pictures that Barry posted along with the above quoted post:


The old Rockland Road:




St. Peter's Field







Landsdown Plaza:







Quite a lot of room for opportunity in the North End brought up in this post by one of our most passionate city councillors.

I think there's a tremendous opportunity to open up the Landsdown retail node to mixed use/ residential developments, which would be extremely convenient location for people without cars.

I think even a lot of renters with cars would see tremendous benefit to living directly beside or even on top of a grocery store, a Shoppers, and other retail locations.

As far as I know, our planning laws don't allow mixed use or residential developments within of our major retail nodes, which I think should change.


Barry's idea to revamp the old Rockland Road is an interesting one too. I wonder how much housing could be squeezed in there below Fort Howe with some creative engineering and architectural solutions.


oh and one more picture Barry posted I couldn't help but repost here:


Steamer Riverboat "David Weston"

I believe this picture was taken before confederation. Amazing to think boats like that could take you all around the Saint John and Kennebecasis Rivers back then. Would be great to see more ferries and riverboats operating in this city and region again.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

A number of these projects are a part of the North End secondary plan that had workshops and open houses over the last couple of days. I don't know if anyone else went, but the visions for the catalyst projects is fantastic and focuses on density and vibrancy in key areas like Landsdowne, the corner around Wellesley/Somerset/Cranston, the Old North End, and others.

Hopefully the concept renderings and draft plan are released as a PDF soon, I encourage everyone here to take a look.

That would have been interesting. Are there more workshops and open houses?

The North End is the closest area to the Central Peninsula in the city, and it really deserves more attention.

I hope the city is looking at options and possible partners for getting a city bike sharing program up and running. Saint John does not have affordable bike rentals or affordable scooter rentals, the only bike and scooter rentals we have are priced at tourist trap prices for cruise ship passenger, and I think we need to change that in order to fill up those bike lanes.

The bike lanes have made people feel a lot safer biking between the North End and Uptown, but the risk of bike theft remains a deterring factor against cycling as a mode of transport in this city. If there were affordable city bike rentals stations for people to ride and drop off bikes between the the North End and Uptown, I think we'd see a lot more people riding bikes between these two core areas of the city, using the Main Street bicycle route.

Interested to hear more about these "catalyst" projects to densify the North End.

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

Oh man that's exciting! The north end has such a huge potential for infill and density. I've always thought the corner of Main & Bridge could be a great spot to infill with the water views.

And then I can see in the coming years shops/restaurants popping up if they can do the density correctly.

Fingers crossed we can see the PDF.

Wow, talk about potential for infill.




I don't think I've ever been down that street, and I've been here almost ten years now. Some real architectural gems on that streets, but also some real shacks, and seemingly a lot of vacant and/or under-utilized lots.

A six storey apartment building or two squeeze in the location above would have a lot of units with amazing views of the water.

[darkharbour]

For anyone interested, the North End plan documents have been updated on the City's Shape Your City website, that includes the concepts for catalyst projects as well.

https://shapeyourcitysaintjohn.ca/42888/widgets/181896/documents/160805

Here are a few of note for anyone that wants to skip the full PDF - although I recommend looking at it for the suggested zoning recommendations and intensification areas.

Landsdowne In-fill and new central park/plaza:


Wellesley & Somerset neighbourhood:


Main Street Redevelopment:


Main Street development height options:

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

The North End Neighbourhood Plan concept renderings have been published online: https://shapeyourcitysaintjohn.ca/north-end-neighbourhood-plan

Looks like a very well thought out and ambitious plan for the neighbourhood.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

For anyone interested, the North End plan documents have been updated on the City's Shape Your City website, that includes the concepts for catalyst projects as well.

https://shapeyourcitysaintjohn.ca/42888/widgets/181896/documents/160805

Here are a few of note for anyone that wants to skip the full PDF - although I recommend looking at it for the suggested zoning recommendations and intensification areas.

Landsdowne In-fill and new central park/plaza:


Wellesley & Somerset neighbourhood:


Main Street Redevelopment:


Main Street development height options:

Those "height options" look especially promising for the future of Main Street. Height is mandatory to unlock some of the best best views that Saint John has to offer. Yet, because we so sorely lack residential high rises, a pretty small % of Saint Johners actually have amazing views from their homes. This should change, as building more high rises within the core and core adjacent areas could dramatically increase the number of Saint Johners with an ocean view, and many of them could be mixed use developments that further add to the Urban charm that Saint John has to offer.

It would sure be nice to see Minister for Housing David Hickey find a way to pull off the height option plan for Main Street. If even two of the taller higher rises in that render were publicly owned, affordable rental housing, that would be a game changer for urbanism and livability in Saint John, be the biggest step forward in terms of the provincial government fixing one of the biggest disasters in Urban Planning in Saint John's history: the demolition of Main Street. Same could be said for the demolition of that beautiful Art Deco icon on hospital hill.



The North End's Main Street Before and After "Urban Renewal":






If we really want to address filling up these bike lanes on Main Street with bikes, embracing height and density around Main Street is the way to do it.

The height option plan could greatly help achieve that goal, and perhaps we could even go a little further if we were willing to throw conventional ideas about units to parking space ratios. A few bike rental stations along Main Street and a better funded transit system could help transform the North End into one of the most convenient and livable neighbourhoods in Eastern Canada.


A Bike Share Toronto station


I appreciate that home building is expensive and that the Holt government is doing far more than her predecessor to address the housing and affordability crisis, but I truly feel bad for our housing minister when he almost never has housing developments over 6 storeys to take publicity photos in front of.

People can argue about cost/benefit analysis on here all day and repeat the same lines about smaller builds being cheaper, quicker, etc, but when it comes to effective politicking, Team Holt could get a lot more mileage out of some high rise developments with affordable rents than they will from dozens of more 2-6 storey housing projects for their MLAs and our housing Minister to take photo ops in front of and show the people of NB what they are doing to address the housing crisis.

I'm not suggesting high rises be the only part of the government of NB's response to the housing crisis; however, I am questioning why we don't have even a few publicly funded high rise developments in our biggest cities.




I hope the city, region, and province are willing to invest in in some large scale high rise developments and help be part the vision presented in this ambitious plan, while also working tenaciously to attract private developers from across the country and across the world to invest in Saint John. It shouldn't be that hard if we double our efforts and formulate a more effective approach to attract outside investors to Saint John.

Canada currently has a PM that almost never stops talking about "building big, building bold, and building now", which is great, especially since our MP did play an early role in Carney's meteoric rise to to the PMO. The Carney government will be funding and financing many high rise projects across Canada, so I hope our MP can help securing funding and financing for some more ambitious high rises projects here in Canada's Port City.


Overall, this North End plan is very good to see, and I really hope the city has similarly ambitious plans and visions for other neighbourhoods like the West Side, South End, and East Saint John. If the city actually sees the vision of this high rise plan realized within the next decade or so, it would fundamentally transform the areas around Main Street and finally make that street live up to its name again for the first time in 60+ years.


There's a lot of reason to be optimistic for the North End, and ambitious residential and mixed use developments throughout this historic area of the city could be central to Saint John re-densifying what used to be a core area of this city.

The centrality of the North End is quite evident when looking at the most populated 3km radius in Saint John:



Despite huge portions of this most densely populated 3km radius of Saint John being taken up by water or industrial uses, Saint John shouldn't lag so far behind Moncton by this same measure. If the vision of the height plan for the North End is realized, along with similarly ambitious plans for the West Side and Millidgeville, Saint John's core adjacent areas could match or surpass the density of Moncton's core adjacent areas without such excessive urban sprawl.

Very glad to see the city has developed such an optimistic and ambitious plan for one of the most centrally located and historically wronged parts of the city. Make the North End Great Again lol.

[bingun]

Thanks for noticing they had uploaded the files from the open house. I had checked the Shape Your City site twice since that event and couldn't see anything yet, so this must have been in the last few days.

While I appreciate that these are just theoretical renderings, they do help us understand what could be possible and provide inspiration.

Lansdowne Plaza

I really like the Lansdowne Plaza render, and it's probably my favourite of the bunch. If we could get even halfway towards that, it would be transformational for the North End. A truly mixed residential and commercial area that could be pedestrian-friendly and offer fast, direct active or public transportation to the uptown area would be fantastic.

Remind me who owns Landsowne Plaza currently? I wonder how susceptible they would be to something like this.

Old North End

The Old North End render is nice, too. I think the area has excellent potential despite its current situation and reputation. The proximity to the river, an existing mature tree canopy in many spots and relatively close proximity to employment and services. I am not sure how the city can spur development here, but I really hope we start to see some progress, if only minor.

Centennial School

Lastly, I think the render and discussion around the old Centennial School are probably the most realistic to action, given that it is an existing government-owned property. It wouldn't require support from private landowners. This could be compared to Fundy Quay, which was previously the Coast Guard property. As for the specifics, I am somewhat agnostic, but it has great potential thanks to its proximity to Shamrock Park. It could be combined with additional facilities there as part of a larger revitalization.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by bingun

Thanks for noticing they had uploaded the files from the open house. I had checked the Shape Your City site twice since that event and couldn't see anything yet, so this must have been in the last few days.

While I appreciate that these are just theoretical renderings, they do help us understand what could be possible and provide inspiration.

Lansdowne Plaza

I really like the Lansdowne Plaza render, and it's probably my favourite of the bunch. If we could get even halfway towards that, it would be transformational for the North End. A truly mixed residential and commercial area that could be pedestrian-friendly and offer fast, direct active or public transportation to the uptown area would be fantastic.

Remind me who owns Landsowne Plaza currently? I wonder how susceptible they would be to something like this.

Old North End

The Old North End render is nice, too. I think the area has excellent potential despite its current situation and reputation. The proximity to the river, an existing mature tree canopy in many spots and relatively close proximity to employment and services. I am not sure how the city can spur development here, but I really hope we start to see some progress, if only minor.

Centennial School

Lastly, I think the render and discussion around the old Centennial School are probably the most realistic to action, given that it is an existing government-owned property. It wouldn't require support from private landowners. This could be compared to Fundy Quay, which was previously the Coast Guard property. As for the specifics, I am somewhat agnostic, but it has great potential thanks to its proximity to Shamrock Park. It could be combined with additional facilities there as part of a larger revitalization.

I notice the Centennial School render includes the former Baxter Dairy site (still owned by Saputo I assume?) . I wonder how much of a brownfield site this is?

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

Notice of Motion from Councillor Ogden:

https://pub-saintjohn.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=24137

It would be very good to to see Rockland Road restored.

As for bolded #4, I think I'd rather see a ferry service from Fundy Quay to the Douglas Avenue peninsula instead of a tramway.



This could get people from Uptown to the Museum in a much more scenic way than a tramway, and would also help connect the North End with the West Side.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by bingun

19 Anglin Drive

Extract from the documentation below. It appears they are intending to use modular designs from Maple Leaf Homes. It is great to see a Made-in-NB development like this.

I guess this is a different baseball diamond than Barry Ogden's "Field of Dreams" at St. Peters? lol

Would be nice to see more of these developments pop up around Saint John. The North End seems to be getting a lot more attention, and it really deserves it.

[sailor734]

I see that Dykemans Hardware on Adelaide is for sale. It's been operating there there 110 years. I hope someone carries on with the business.

https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/29059205/64-74-adelaide-street-saint-john

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I see that Dykemans Hardware on Adelaide is for sale. It's been operating there there 110 years. I hope someone carries on with the business.

https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/29059205/64-74-adelaide-street-saint-john

I hope so too, it would be a shame to see it go as both a resident of the North End and as someone who sails (for those that don't know, Dykemans is one of the sources of boating hardware in the city).

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I see that Dykemans Hardware on Adelaide is for sale. It's been operating there there 110 years. I hope someone carries on with the business.

https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/29059205/64-74-adelaide-street-saint-john

Continuing on the the hardware store seems unlikely, but you never know... 110+ years is impressive to say the least, especially in that business! Sounds like they might stick around if their business fills a niche within the sailing community, as mentioned.



The building on the right is quite an aesthetically pleasing shack that could be fixed up into a much nicer building.







Quite a big property too, a lot of room there for a mixed use or purely residential development.

Never been in Dykeman's but might have to check them out, especially if there's a closing out sale, but hopefully not!

[irisheyes]

Great visioning exercise by the folks at Fotenn.

We have a lot of work to do to rebuild Portland and this is an appropriate step in that direction.

[darkharbour]

For anyone interested, the first draft of the North End plan is now available for download here: https://shapeyourcitysaintjohn.ca/north-end-neighbourhood-plan

[bingun]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

For anyone interested, the first draft of the North End plan is now available for download here: https://shapeyourcitysaintjohn.ca/north-end-neighbourhood-plan

I will have to read through this a few times before I can comment, but it appears the appendices are missing from the document, despite being referenced several times. I wonder if that is deliberate or an oversight.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by bingun

I will have to read through this a few times before I can comment, but it appears the appendices are missing from the document, despite being referenced several times. I wonder if that is deliberate or an oversight.

Draft document.

I personally think the plan is a LOT more grounded/reasonable than those initial infill renders looked, but it skipped over the Winter/Wright area, which without a doubt has the most natural small-scale growth potential due to uptown proximity.

Good mix of short, medium, and long-term ideas, like connecting Shamrock Park to Rockwood along the transmission line corridor, extending Cambridge Dr to Forbes Dr (should also go north to Brentwood Cres and Woodward while they're at it), coming up with a master plan for developing Pokiok, creating a new park around Robertson Lake, etc. Good emphasis on small lot infill, which I like.

There's some concerning duds in here like making Somerset a 'pedestrian friendly transit-oriented corridor', and they should have aligned better to the existing Central Peninsula plan from a cohesion perspective. But it's overall pretty reasonable.

My only issue is it's trying to do a ton of things at once. Focus should be on the Old North End, Main Street, and a couple of catalytic areas ripe for scaled action like Lansdowne and Fallsview. Mount Pleasant and Douglas don't need strategic guidance.

[irisheyes]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

There's some concerning duds in here like making Somerset a 'pedestrian friendly transit-oriented corridor', and they should have aligned better to the existing Central Peninsula plan from a cohesion perspective. But it's overall pretty reasonable.

My only issue is it's trying to do a ton of things at once. Focus should be on the Old North End, Main Street, and a couple of catalytic areas ripe for scaled action like Lansdowne and Fallsview. Mount Pleasant and Douglas don't need strategic guidance.

Hear, hear.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by irisheyes

Hear, hear.

As someone who has involved themself in this process, I will say that Mount Pleasant and Douglas Avenue are mostly included as separate areas because of community interest in retaining their character more than trying to spur new development there. If you look at them, the Mount Pleasant section basically only describes limiting new development to under four-units per lot and defining setback and streetscape recommendations. Douglas Avenue is similarly described, with more emphasis on the fact it already has a number of heritage designations that need to be honoured and trying to accommodate changes to make the most of the new NB Museum.

I think what you'll see if the plan go to Council and then in the coming year(s) you will see the City prioritize which areas of the plan to actually implement in the short term rather than addressing them all at once. If I had to bet, I would say the Old North End around Adelaide, Main St., and the old Baxter site, along with the Landsdowne areas will be the first to get attention. The development of the new school might also mean Somerset and Rope Walk get attention soon, depending on developer interest in some of the vacant lands around there.

Agree with Adam re: the Winter/Wright street area, I brought it up several times in consultations as an opportunity area with a lot of potential and it seemed to be minimized or dismissed every time.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Draft document.

I personally think the plan is a LOT more grounded/reasonable than those initial infill renders looked, but it skipped over the Winter/Wright area, which without a doubt has the most natural small-scale growth potential due to uptown proximity.

Good mix of short, medium, and long-term ideas, like connecting Shamrock Park to Rockwood along the transmission line corridor, extending Cambridge Dr to Forbes Dr (should also go north to Brentwood Cres and Woodward while they're at it), coming up with a master plan for developing Pokiok, creating a new park around Robertson Lake, etc. Good emphasis on small lot infill, which I like.

There's some concerning duds in here like making Somerset a 'pedestrian friendly transit-oriented corridor', and they should have aligned better to the existing Central Peninsula plan from a cohesion perspective. But it's overall pretty reasonable.

My only issue is it's trying to do a ton of things at once. Focus should be on the Old North End, Main Street, and a couple of catalytic areas ripe for scaled action like Lansdowne and Fallsview. Mount Pleasant and Douglas don't need strategic guidance.

I appreciate that it is the draft, but to fully appreciate what they are suggesting, you need the corresponding diagrams or renders. Specifically, the Lansdowne Plaza section references a concept; I assume this is the one we saw previously. However, you've covered a lot of the highlights in the document. I found the new subdivision in Pokiok an interesting concept.



The 5-year working plan shown below is an easy-to-understand reference of what the city will be actively working on. I assume short-term is <1 year, medium-term is <2-3 years, and long-term is <5 years.