A Friendly Observation

[scleeb]

A Friendly Observation:

I have been a loyal and avid reader of this forum for the past 7 years. In that time I have come to admire the astute commentary and sharp insights of everyone whom posts here. I mean every word of that. This is an awesome place. That being said, sometimes the discussions here can drift into needlessly harsh political commentary. I wince every time read it. I understand Portland is a progressive city, with heavily Democratic political leanings. Probably in excess of 75%... I get it. But that also means nearly 1 in 4 of us don't share those same leanings. Nevertheless, it seems like some people whom post here fail to recognize this simple fact.

You don’t have to be a liberal, or a progressive, or a democrat, to love Portland. I choose to live here because I was born here, I was raised here and I love it here. I would say 80% of my friends and family disagree with my political views, but I don’t think any of them would ridicule or demean someone else because they have different views. Yet, many here think that it's OK.

Clakistan (i.e. Clackamas)… Tea-baggers (i.e. Tea Party)… Vantucky (i.e. Vancouver, WA)… Knuckle-draggers / Neanderthals (i.e. light rail opponents)… 1 percenters (traditional business community)… NIMBYS (Lake Oswego, West Linn, Oregon City, et.al.)... Terrorists / Traitors / Racists / Homophobes / Climate Change Deniers (i.e. Republicans)

I've seen all of this and more here.

Alls’ im sayin’ is it gets old. I bite my tongue 99% of the time. But sometimes, like today, I can’t…

Remember, this forum should be a place for respectful dialogue. I often modify my views based upon the thoughtful commentary of those people whom I initially disagreed. But when I see the vitriol and spite, I just turn away. You can never hope to win an argument when you mock and deride your opponent, they will simply stop listening.

Not that anyone here cares, but I’m a registered independent. I would say my political views could best be described as libertarian.

[PacificNW]

I consider myself a liberal. I appreciate and support many of your concerns. I do feel that our posts should focus on the merits of a project being discussed, but sometimes political viewpoints/positions may have a place in the discussion, IMO. Being respectful should be a given.

[Derek]

To be honest, most members of the far right bring that kind of negative attitude towards them upon themselves.

[maccoinnich]

At the risk of making this more heated, I would like to respond.

I assume you're talking about the economy thread. A bunch of comments (including my own) appear to have been deleted. The last time I read it, it didn't seem that heated, but maybe things went downhill from there. I don't know. Anyway, someone asked the perfectly reasonable question of what effect a default would have on the local economy and various projects underway here that include federal money. The economy and the government (and therefore politics) are pretty closely linked. I really don't think it's inappropriate to (civilly) discuss these issues in that kind of thread.

[tworivers]

scleeb made it clear that they were writing about "needlessly harsh" political commentary. Obviously what constitutes needlessly harsh is debatable, but I didn't see anything about staying entirely clear of politics -- pretty much impossible anyway when it comes to the economy. Personally I wouldn't lump 'NIMBY' in with some of those other terms but I think the general message is valid.

I'd describe myself as a philosophical anarchist but pragmatically a social democrat, simply because I don't think capitalism can or should be left unregulated because the social good gets left behind so quickly in the chase for profit. A lot of it comes down to scale, though. On a small scale, I think a lot of different political-economic approaches can be valuable/possible and it's easier to avoid bureaucratic stagnation and accumulations of power. On a large scale, well, look at the macro-level world we live in: it's hard to point to anything that works for very long and easy to find a litany of catastrophes.

[cab]

I think one should start from the baseline that if you love Portland, you need to realize it didn't get to point its at today by accident. Well thought out planning went into the city we know and love today. The track record for Portland is pretty clear. When you actual have good government (or at least windows of good government) you can get some pretty nice results. Portland being one of them. So when someone is reaping the benefits of quality leadership and planning while espousing a philosophy directly opposing those paradigm shifting accomplishments, that person should be fair game. Now, I agree no need to get personal but nothing wrong with reminding a libertarian they are standing on the shoulders of giants, might want to respect that before trying to cut said giants knees off.

[scleeb]

Originally Posted by cab

I think one should start from the baseline that if you love Portland, you need to realize it didn't get to point its at today by accident. Well thought out planning went into the city we know and love today. The track record for Portland is pretty clear. When you actual have good government (or at least windows of good government) you can get some pretty nice results. Portland being one of them. So when someone is reaping the benefits of quality leadership and planning while espousing a philosophy directly opposing those paradigm shifting accomplishments, that person should be fair game. Now, I agree no need to get personal but nothing wrong with reminding a libertarian they are standing on the shoulders of giants, might want to respect that before trying to cut said giants knees off.

Whose shoulders am I standing on exactly?

[cab]

Serious? 230 years of public investment in a civil society. The fact that so many American's can't wrap their heads around this is a mind boggling. Respect the advantages you've been handed.

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by cab

Serious? 230 years of public investment in a civil society. The fact that so many American's can't wrap their heads around this is a mind boggling. Respect the advantages you've been handed.

A million percent THIS.

[twofiftyfive]

I'm always shocked when I come across a Portlander who isn't liberal.

EDIT: Another thing:

But that also means nearly 1 in 4 of us don't share those same leanings.

Being a rightie in Portland doesn't put you in a protected minority. It does, however, mean you'll probably never have a mayor, representative, senator, or governor you voted for.

[scleeb]

Originally Posted by twofiftyfive

I'm always shocked when I come across a Portlander who isn't liberal. .

It seems Ive stirred the liberal spirits...

Honest Question. What, in your opinion, does a stereotypical Portland rightie (to use your word) look like/act like?

Another Honest question. Does anyone here feel conservatives (republicans) have made any positive contributions to society? Do they have any redeeming qualities? Or, in the alternative, is conservatives political ideology incompatible with virtue or progress?

Final Honest Question: Would you endorse the idea of single party progressive rule and the complete repudiation of all conservative ideology / dogma? Put more simply... Would you like to see Americans come to their senses and throw every Republican out of office at all levels of government, thereby handing compete control of all levers of power to liberals?

[RainDog]

Originally Posted by scleeb

Honest Question. What, in your opinion, does a stereotypical Portland rightie (to use your word) look like/act like?

Conservative folks come in all shapes and sizes man. Honestly I think a left-right linear metric is a poor way to define something as complex as most peoples political views.

[cab]

Actually a republican was the key to Oregon success back before they went conservative crazy. Tom McCall was a republican who set the ground work for the urban growth boundary, secured our public beach access along the entire coast, helped tear out the freeway in DT PDX, established the first bottle bill. A Republican! Today our so called most progressives would have a hard time voting for these as it might hurt business. Gov. McCall would be viewed as a progressive crazy. And I guess that is the problem for today. Conservative are basically christian fascists at this point: guns, bible, gays. The so called left are unorganized party of the center right. There is no real Left any longer. So until the spectrum of politics shift back to something somewhat normal, no way should we really vote for republican. They are just to far gone.

Now if the left goes off the deep end and the right can offer a quality center position than yes, why not.

[scleeb]

Originally Posted by RainDog

Conservative folks come in all shapes and sizes man. Honestly I think a left-right linear metric is a poor way to define something as complex as most peoples political views.

I completely agree, that's why I asked the question. That's why I reject labeling people based upon political identification/affiliation... its a subjective metric...

Personally, my views are all over the place, I consider myself socially liberal, but I definitely harbor "conservative" views when it comes to fiscal and monetary policy. That being said, I'm not extreme in either direction... I think government regulation of business is good and beneficial (Glass-Steagall should never have been repealed)... On the flip side, I think late term abortion is morally troubling... So I have personal limits on a right to privacy as well. What does that make me?

I'm not a fan of or Sarah Palin, or Michelle Bachman or Ted Cruz. But I don't judge Republicans, or cast blanket statements upon all Republicans, because of the words and actions a few outliers. Same goes for Democrats.

[tworivers]

Raindog: Honestly I think a left-right linear metric is a poor way to define something as complex as most peoples political views.

^^^ Yes.

We certainly could use more McCall's and fewer Kitzhaber's.

[scleeb]

Originally Posted by cab

Conservative are basically christian fascists at this point: guns, bible, gays.

This is exactly what I find so offensive. Is that what you are going for?

My mother is 71 years old, she is a registered Republican, and seems fairly conservative in her politics. (I know she voted for McCain in 2008, but sat this election out). She is a practicing Catholic and a member of Holy Rosary Catholic Church. Now, I have never heard her utter a harsh word toward anyone, but you never know... Is she a fascist? Is her late father (also a Republican) whom rotted in a Nazi POW camp for 9 months, also a fascist?

[2oh1]

Frankly, I feel sorry for people who define themselves as liberal or conservative - but especially those who label themselves as Republican. The Republican party abandoned most of its values long ago and our nation would be better off if those who truly do believe in Republican values abandoned the elephant and started a proper third party. But they won't because they care more about winning elections than they care about their actual values and beliefs.

Rather than clinging to silly labels, here's a better idea: just be a good person and use your vote accordingly. I think it's a sad statement about our culture that, because I care about the poor or the environment, I must be a liberal. Or because I'm not willing to accept discrimination, I am liberal. Conservatives fighting against science? That's nuts. Fighting against health care?!?! THAT'S NUTS.

My views are mostly what one would consider to be liberal, but I don't think of myself as liberal. I think of myself as having a conscience. I cannot relate to people who value money over humanity, or war over health care. Holy cow! I cannot understand how Republicans could gleefully fund a war of choice in Iraq but be so offended by the idea of affordable health care at home that they shut down the government to try and stop it. HOLY COW!

The Golden Rule. More people should give it a try.

[PacificNW]

"Frankly, I feel sorry for people who define themselves as liberal or conservative..." Hmm...Like I stated in an earlier post...I define myself as a liberal and I don't need anyone to feel sorry for me.. . Btw, it is much more complicated than the label refers...I am liberal regarding social issues but lean towards conservative views regarding fiscal matters but I wore the badge of being a liberal proudly when it "wasn't cool" to do so. The word "liberal" defines more closely to what my political beliefs and social issues represent...

[JG573]

I also find myself speechless when I come across a portlander that is a republican but I semi agree with scleeb I am uncomfortable with the ease at which people on the right are called racist sometimes but they do in essence can bring it upon themselves because while what they preach might not be racist there actions through policy tend to be detrimental to minorities. You need to look no further than the drug laws put in place during the Nixon and Reagan years as just one example between crack and cocaine.

On top of that their social policy is so damaging that they are going to lose election after election if they do not go for a moderate in 2016. The only partial agreement of social policy I have in any way is late term abortions I disagree with unless there are serious danger to the mother because if you wait that long until the baby is almost fully developed then I think that is wrong.

I am a leftist/liberal in the principal sense because the values I believe in but I am not blinded to the reality that even though democrats might preach the same values as me they often can be corrupted with money and partisanship just as much as the other side. I am very socially liberal and sort of moderate on fiscal and economic policy where the republicans can be some part right to me. Like I believe in lowering the corporate tax rate, promoting competition and tax incentives (only if they prove they are a ethical business that pays their employees well) but I believe the private sector needs to be regulated, minimum wage increased, a progressive tax structure, accountability of business, Glass Steagall reintroduced and single payer healthcare.

Overall my principles always align with making this country a better place for ALL and making sure everyone can have a decent standard of living. Not this garbage republicans preach about all for yourselves and personal responsibility I can not stand hearing it. The takers garbage also. For some reason republicans call a CEO who takes a 10 million dollar tax break a good business man but someone needing for food to feed their family is a taker? It blows my mind.

Now my rant is over and you need to realize this is a liberal leaning site and people will use these things even though I try not to but mostly they use these because republicans tend to be extremely pro sprawl, anti land use policy and anti transit so you can see why people on this site could not have favorable views of right leaning polices or the party.

[PacificNW]

Well stated.....