Ottawa Highway Bypass Corridor/Ring Road

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Speaking of sprawl, I’m surprised that there’s none west of Highway 7 until one gets to Arnprior. Are there municipal bylaws that prevent places like Carp from getting built up? I don’t think the green belt goes that far. Or is it because of DND which still has some operations in Carp?

It is a result of amalgamation. Carp is within the City of Ottawa, and since there is plenty of room still in Kanata/Stittsville, there is little point also developing Carp.

Arnprior (and Carleton Place which is growing even faster), are just outside of the western edge of the city. Since Lanark and Renfrew Counties want a piece of the pie, they are encouraging development.

I suspect Carp will eventually be developed though (and will become an extension of Kanata like Stittsville is).

[Marshsparrow]

It confounds me the # of people that move to the eastern part of Barrhaven, Riverside South, Findlay Creek, Greely, etc. and then complain that they don't have access to a 4 lane hwy or the 417 and then clog up the existing arteries that get there and complain some more... did you look at a map before you bought way out there? Same for those that move to Rockland and then complain about hwy 17 or Gatineau and then want more bridges...

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Speaking of sprawl, I’m surprised that there’s none west of Highway 7 until one gets to Arnprior. Are there municipal bylaws that prevent places like Carp from getting built up? I don’t think the green belt goes that far. Or is it because of DND which still has some operations in Carp?

DND divested itself from Carp back in the last century.

[hwy418]

Originally Posted by phil235

I guess the question that I have is a) when is this type of bypass actually necessary and b) is this really planning for the future? It's definitely the kind of planning that we have done for the past 80 years, but is it really that forward looking?

In terms of a city of 1 million people needing a bypass, is that really the case? Toronto didn't get the 407 until the late 90s, when the GTA was in the neighbourhood of 4 million people. And that was in an era of virtually uncontrolled sprawl that I don't think we want to repeat.

It isn't obvious to me that the need in Ottawa is imminent, given the size of the city and the much smaller percentage of traffic passing through the city. Reserving a corridor makes sense, but I'd rather see actual construction put off for several decades at least while we concentrate on making a more dense and transit-oriented city. There's also no doubt in my mind that a highway like this will accelerate sprawl - one look at Carleton Place and Arnprior shows what happens when that type of infrastructure is built.

All good points but, there is very little redundancy in Ottawa's road and highway network. While much of the GTA's roads were planned as a grid network providing many options for commuters, Ottawa does not have that luxury. I would rather MTO spend the money on getting the ball rolling on a southern bypass highway than expand the 417 through the urban boundary any further.

Unless flying cars are coming or the Amazons or Walmarts of the world suddenly switch to shipping goods via cargo bikes, planning now for this highway is essential. It will be needed eventually. As someone pointed out in an earlier post the largest distribution centers and industrial areas are located in the southeast and southwest areas of the City and these areas continue to grow.

Wouldn't we all benefit from removing as many trucks from the core as possible? Build the southern bypass highway and you likely won't need to widen the 417 to 10 lanes everywhere.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

It confounds me the # of people that move to the eastern part of Barrhaven, Riverside South, Findlay Creek, Greely, etc. and then complain that they don't have access to a 4 lane hwy or the 417 and then clog up the existing arteries that get there and complain some more... did you look at a map before you bought way out there? Same for those that move to Rockland and then complain about hwy 17 or Gatineau and then want more bridges...

I don't know you still get to advocate for what you see as improvements. I live downtown with horrible bus service and far too much car focused development but I still have the right to demand better no? People who buy there can't afford their white picket fence dream anywhere else. The real shock will come if and when pre-pandemic commuting returns and they realize how long a Rockland to Carling commute will be.

[daud]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

It confounds me the # of people that move to the eastern part of Barrhaven, Riverside South, Findlay Creek, Greely, etc. and then complain that they don't have access to a 4 lane hwy or the 417 and then clog up the existing arteries that get there and complain some more... did you look at a map before you bought way out there? Same for those that move to Rockland and then complain about hwy 17 or Gatineau and then want more bridges...

Well, I can partially answer that because I live in RSS.

1. With a family, we needed and wanted affordable single housing (yes, lots of options but narrows things a bit)
2. Needed a place that was equidistant and accessible for 2 adults to get to their respective workplaces (East end and Kanata)
3. When we moved there roads like Leitrim and Strandherd were not unbearably overloaded with traffic. The area was very driveable using rural back roads. Subsequent City approvals for more and more homes are what made the area's traffic bad.

There's a responsibility on the part of the owner-I agree. But seriously, this does not absolve the horrible decisions made by city planners. Its literally their job to create a liveable city. To their credit the greenbelt confounds the problem for Ottawa specifically.

To be honest, since covid hit, things have been very manageable but just before covid, it was getting ridiculous. What we did to mitigate the traffic was use roads further south. Rideau Road to head east and Barnsdale to head west. LRT is wonderful but doesn't go anywhere near our industrial area workplaces.

[Richard Eade]

In 2018, the modal split for transit in Toronto was 23%. The modal split for private cars was 70%. These are figures from Deloitte

During peak periods, the transit modal split went to almost 40%, but 23% was the average for Toronto. Vancouver and Montreal were similar; as was Ottawa with about 20%. If Ottawa’s transit ridership was about 100 million, then that leaves almost 400 million trips in private vehicles each year. A transit modal split of around 20% is pretty typical for larger Canadian cities, which have good public transit systems. It is unclear whether adding a lot more transit options in Ottawa (more bus routes, more BRT, more LRT, etc.) will cause much of an increase in Ottawa’s transit modal split.

However, let’s say that Ottawa is able to double our transit modal split to 40%. And that the population doubles, as well; leading to the number of total trips also doubling. So, we will have 1,000 million trips with 400 million being on public transit. That still leaves a huge number (almost 600 million; which is a 50% increase over now) of private vehicles out on the road. Add to that the commercial vehicles, which will, surely, increase in numbers over what there are today.

Yes, even if we can significantly increase our transit modal split, somehow, we will still need more road-lanes to handle population growth.

[silvergate]

Originally Posted by daud

Well, I can partially answer that because I live in RSS.

1. With a family, we needed and wanted affordable single housing (yes, lots of options but narrows things a bit)
2. Needed a place that was equidistant and accessible for 2 adults to get to their respective workplaces (East end and Kanata)
3. When we moved there roads like Leitrim and Strandherd were not unbearably overloaded with traffic. The area was very driveable using rural back roads. Subsequent City approvals for more and more homes are what made the area's traffic bad.

There's a responsibility on the part of the owner-I agree. But seriously, this does not absolve the horrible decisions made by city planners. Its literally their job to create a liveable city. To their credit the greenbelt confounds the problem for Ottawa specifically.

To be honest, since covid hit, things have been very manageable but just before covid, it was getting ridiculous. What we did to mitigate the traffic was use roads further south. Rideau Road to head east and Barnsdale to head west. LRT is wonderful but doesn't go anywhere near our industrial area workplaces.

I think you bring up a good point about city planners dropping the ball when approving sprawl south of the city. The thing is, there is no non-disruptive way to build more car lanes North-South into the core, which realistically means its not going to happen. Everyone suggesting a southern bypass is needed are ignoring the reality that this highway isn't improving traffic into and out of central Ottawa in any way shape or form.

This should act as a "lessons learned" moment for the city. If the city is going to sprawl, it should sprawl E-W where major transportation corridors already exist.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

In 2018, the modal split for transit in Toronto was 23%. The modal split for private cars was 70%. These are figures from Deloitte
Yes, even if we can significantly increase our transit modal split, somehow, we will still need more road-lanes to handle population growth.

Unless we start actually living up to the aspirations in our own political and planning documents when it comes to changing the way we build things, particularly the segregation of land uses, the compactness of those uses, and the post-war stroad hierarchies and topologies.

We can make a lot of motorized trips simply disappear...

...If we choose to.

[RuralCitizen]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

It confounds me the # of people that move to the eastern part of Barrhaven, Riverside South, Findlay Creek, Greely, etc. and then complain that they don't have access to a 4 lane hwy or the 417 and then clog up the existing arteries that get there and complain some more... did you look at a map before you bought way out there? Same for those that move to Rockland and then complain about hwy 17 or Gatineau and then want more bridges...

I'd argue that people have been asking for a East end bridge for more than half a century. I think people in Orleans and Rockland are perfectly entitled to complain about the lack of bridge. It is more than adding a a bridge to "reduce" traffic. It is more about not having to go downtown to cross the river. Linking 2 french communities without having to do a ridiculous detour.

Just for an example: Starting at Place d'Orléans and trying to reach the area right across the river you either have to drive 41km through downtown, or drive 23km to the ferry in Cumberland and spent 12$ for passage. This point on the 148 across the river is roughly 4km away from Place d'Orléans.

In terms of roads, the 174 was the original route to Ottawa from Montreal, it was initially a provincial highway before the province downgraded it to the municipal government. It was always intended as a intercity route.

In regards of the comment of people living in Orléans and Rockland. There is not enough housing available in the Urban core of the city to house all of the commuters. People don't have a choice to live this far out. Just the population of Orléans is more than 100k. Where would you put all these people within the greenbelt?

If convenient 15mins walk housing is not provided, I believe people are entitled to complain about not having convenient transportation infrastructure. (That includes road, buses, trains, bike paths, sidewalks)

We can't blame the residents, we should blame the planners who can't put their foot down to design sustainable neighborhoods, and greedy developers who only care about making a quick buck. the residents don't have an alternative

[ericmacm]

I was looking forward to seeing what was in the Eastern Ontario Transportation plan, and I wasn't expecting this at all, but it is a pleasant surprise. I am a bit disappointed that further planning of extensions of the 417 north of Renfrew haven't been included in the plan as of yet.

What the province will likely do (and should do) is plan this bypass with a transitway provision, like on the 407, 427, and future 413, so the easy implementation of LRT/BRT/Regional Rail transit along the corridor will be an option when it's inevitably needed in the future. I'd also like to see it go near YOW (or a spur to YOW) and see it connect up with A50 in Gatineau via some sort of new crossing.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by RuralCitizen

I'd argue that people have been asking for a East end bridge for more than half a century. I think people in Orleans and Rockland are perfectly entitled to complain about the lack of bridge. It is more than adding a a bridge to "reduce" traffic. It is more about not having to go downtown to cross the river. Linking 2 french communities without having to do a ridiculous detour.

You just reminded me of one of the main reasons why there is a bridge in the west and not in the east.

The first Champlain Bridge was built about 100 years ago so that the rich denizens in Ottawa's west end could access the recreational opportunities they particularly liked in Aylmer and other parts of West Quebec.

There was no such consideration on the eastern side of the region in those days.

(Funny how a number of road infrastructure decisions in Ottawa seem to have ethno-cultural and socio-economic dimensions. For example, the Vanier Parkway cuts straight through Vanier but dead ends as soon as you get to New Edinburgh.)

[Dengler Avenue]

I am a bit disappointed that further planning of extensions of the 417 north of Renfrew haven't been included in the plan as of yet.

Oh yea thanks for the reminder.

[Dengler Avenue]

I have a (conspiracy) theory: Can it be that MTO will just let the City of Ottawa develop however it wants, then put the ring road through Leeds & Grenville, Stormont & Dundas & Glengarry, Prescott & Russell, and have MTQ link the ring road to A50 around Rockland and Thurso?
It seems easier to work with counties than with cities.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I have a (conspiracy) theory: Can it be that MTO will just let the City of Ottawa develop however it wants, then put the ring road through Leeds & Grenville, Stormont & Dundas & Glengarry, Prescott & Russell, and have MTQ link the ring road to A50 around Rockland and Thurso?
It seems easier to work with counties than with cities.

A more plausible conspiracy theory is that Ottawa just isn't that prominent on MTO's radar.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A more plausible conspiracy theory is that Ottawa just isn't that prominent on MTO's radar.

Which when you compare the traffic issues in Toronto with those in Ottawa, is actually quite understandable. How much attention will you give a broken leg when you are having a heart attack?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Which when you compare the traffic issues in Toronto with those in Ottawa, is actually quite understandable. How much attention will you give a broken leg when you are having a heart attack?

True to a point, but Ottawans still pay taxes to Ontario.

I too am often irritated with people from low-population regions complaining about bigger population centres getting most of the attention and funding. When the latter is perfectly normal in a democracy.

But as always there needs to be a balance of course.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

True to a point, but Ottawans still pay taxes to Ontario.

I too am often irritated with people from low-population regions complaining about bigger population centres getting most of the attention and funding. When the latter is perfectly normal in a democracy.

But as always there needs to be a balance of course.

I am not sure about Ottawa v Toronto but cities in Canada are almost certainly underfunded relative to the tax revenue compared to rural areas though it seems like cities get all the attention. I wonder if Ottawa Toronto has same dynamic.

[Dengler Avenue]

@swimmer_spe drew this up for Ottawa Bypass: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer....3917615396918%2C-75.69013614999999&z=10
Has anyone come up with something similar before?

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

@swimmer_spe drew this up for Ottawa Bypass: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer....3917615396918%2C-75.69013614999999&z=10
Has anyone come up with something similar before?

There’s almost no possibility of a highway going through Mer Bleue, it’s one of 37 Ramsar Convention protected wetland sites in Canada