Canada Line races toward capacity

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

... CP's using their tracks near Brentwood as a rail yard.
That was the problem with people living there.
That's not supposed to happen, but no one can really stop CP.

My bad, I meant CN. Social housing literally beside the tracks (which themselves are about to get twinned). Same thing as the airport, or BNSF in White Rock - why should they move, when they were there first?

Originally Posted by madog222

Which would explain why Richmond has maintained industrial use for the area surrounding the OMC in their most recent OCP.

That should help.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by madog222

Which would explain why Richmond has maintained industrial use for the area surrounding the OMC in their most recent OCP.

It's also part of the Richmond Center Area, and not protected by Metro Vancouver industrial designation (which was put in place a few years after the Canada Line was built):
http://www.metrovancouver.org/metro2040/land-use-designation/Pages/default.aspx

Richmond could rezone the area tomorrow and no one could stop them.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

My bad, I meant CN. Social housing literally beside the tracks (which themselves are about to get twinned). Same thing as the airport, or BNSF in White Rock - why should they move, when they were there first?

TBF, Bridgeport was built with the specific intention to spur development in the area (being SkyTrain), and isn't a freight track like the False Creek Spur.

It was never intended to remain industrial (unlike Scott Road or the Flats- the Metro Vancouver zoning system was created in 2011, so not long after the Canada Line opened.)
Also, Vancouver is keeping the area industrial aside from the section just abutting Hastings.
The actual impact is much lower, since the majority of the planned development is far away from the rail tracks.

They only put it where it is today because of the PPP thing, and because there's not really anywhere else you can put it (other than maybe YVR, who I doubt would want it on Sea Island.)


The BNSF in White Rock should move- not because they're any obligation to, but because people are idiots and keep hitting the tracks and so the trains have to go super-slow.

[Migrant_Coconut]

In which case Bridgeport can go ahead and develop whatever, but in all those cases, the trains/planes/etc will only move if the owners decide that it's more worthwhile to move them, and definitely not because of a few loud NIMBYs who really should've known what they were getting into when they moved there.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by madog222

So we aren't retrofitting the Canada Line, we are building a whole new line. What does that achieve? Why is that money not better spent building a new line where there isn't already rapid transit?

The question is if you're better off rebuilding the Canada Line or building a new line when the Canada reaches capacity.
Parallel lines in practice usually provide only limited capacity relief.


Technically, you could just improve the signaling system, but that'd still cost hundreds of millions (the ATC on Line 1 in Toronto cost $700M)- so if you need to upgrade capacity on the Canada Line by adding more trains beyond the 120s minimum, you're looking at a major fraction of just replacing the entire thing.
https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/automatic-train-control-brings-ttc-into-the-future

Hence, why I brought the Bridgeport OMC and its associated CACs into consideration to potentially even out the costs.


There are higher priorities than doing this (even 15,000 is probably at > the 2060 time period, and you can get to 18,000 pphpd just by better train design), so this is really in the same category as an Expo relief line/lengthening the Expo Line stations.



One of the problems with an underground subway is that upgrading or adding a new station to it is much more difficult than with an elevated one or at-grade one, and most of Cambie is plenty wide enough for elevated tracks.

The Canada Line has station gaps (with no planned 'future' station) at 16th and Nelson + Granville as well.
I know the former was proposed and given up at some point due to the difficulty of building it (which is a shame, since it would allow for a bus on 16th Ave and much better access to the south part of the Broadway corridor area, which would become very useful once there's a lot of development in the Broadway area already.)

Not sure why there's not one at Nelson though. I'll try to track down the geotechnical documents, but that's also one that seems pretty useful.

[officedweller]

Nelson Station was only proposed when there was a station at Dunsmuir
(which would have allowed transfers to Expo Line, but would have been expensive to build).
Dunsmuir Station and Nelson Station were consolidated into Robson Station before the RFP stage.
The RFP specified Robson Station.
The entrance to Robson Station was subsequently moved a block to the north to allow easier transfers from West Vancouver buses on Georgia St.
Agreed that it's an unfortunate gap.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Nelson Station was only proposed when there was a station at Dunsmuir
(which would have allowed transfers to Expo Line, but would have been expensive to build).
Dunsmuir Station and Nelson Station were consolidated into Robson Station before the RFP stage.
The RFP specified Robson Station.
The entrance to Robson Station was subsequently moved a block to the north to allow easier transfers from West Vancouver buses on Georgia St.
Agreed that it's an unfortunate gap.

Do you have the original PDF source for that?
I would like to see the original documents so I can try to figure out why there was no station there, because it's really strange.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Do you have the original PDF source for that?
I would like to see the original documents so I can try to figure out why there was no station there, because it's really strange.

I doubt you'll find any super detailed reports beyond these CoV reports.

Three options have been developed for the downtown, starting at Waterfront Station at Granville and Cordova. They are:
· An all-tunnel alignment under Granville and Davie Streets, considered to be the base alignment;

· A partially-tunnelled alignment that would be elevated over Cordova Street to Granville and Hastings, then at-grade on Granville to a tunnel portal in the middle of Granville Street at Nelson; and,

· A surface/elevated option that would run elevated over Cordova Street to Granville and Hastings, then at-grade on Granville Mall to Robson, turn east on Robson to Beatty, cross through the Terry Fox Plaza, then run elevated to a new bridge over False Creek, just east of the Cambie Street Bridge. This option was anticipated to save capital costs but preliminary estimates suggest that there would not be any savings because of land and development rights acquisition costs.

Surface alignments downtown can be challenging depending on the route chosen and the technology proposed. Speed and travel time requirements may necessitate significant interruption to pedestrian mobility and bus services. Adjacent land uses can also be affected. Depending on the technology, curb side parking and sidewalk space may need to be traded off in order to fit the system into intensively used streets. The comparatively narrow downtown streets mean that systems possible elsewhere may not easily fit the Vancouver situation, or may severely compromise pedestrian space or property access.

Staff conclude that, in the downtown, the only suitable alignment is in tunnel, given service coverage, urban fit and transit network issues. The key factors are as follows:

Service coverage
A key City objective for the RAV line is that it help create a more complete rapid transit network in the downtown, including serving the Downtown South/Yaletown area. This area is becoming the most densely populated neighbourhood in Vancouver. The all-tunnel and partially-tunnelled alignments serve this area well since both would have a station located on Davie Street in Yaletown. The all-surface/elevated alignment that runs on Granville, Robson, and elevated over False Creek provides a station near Expo Boulevard and Smithe Street, too far north to adequately serve much of the Downtown South community.

Urban fit
The partially-tunnelled and all-surface/elevated options have a number of aspects that staff conclude would be incompatible with the urban design standards that are expected in the downtown:
· Surface alignments on Granville Mall would require an elevated guideway between Cordova and Hastings Streets. This would be visually intrusive and out of scale in the context of the narrow street right-of-way.

· The partial-tunnel option would require a tunnel portal in the middle of Granville Street, between Smithe and Nelson Streets. The portal would be visually intrusive, occupy the length of the block, and would be impossible to mitigate satisfactorily. It would also likely require sidewalks to be narrowed in the central block of the city's entertainment district, raising concerns for pedestrian safety. In addition, the strategy for revitalizing Granville Street and the pending redesign of the street would be compromised in terms of urban fit, programming capability, ambience and other factors that are key to a successful regeneration of the street.

· The all-surface/elevated option would require changing the function of Robson Street east of Granville from a mixed-traffic street to one with limited private vehicle access. This would create problems for some properties, especially the hotels which rely on easy vehicular access. This option would also reduce the size of the Terry Fox Plaza, reducing gathering space outside BC Place stadium.

· Surface LRT on Granville could impact growing residential areas along adjacent streets where local buses would need to be re-routed. The function of a "bus spine" along Granville may need to be replaced using transit-only lanes on Seymour and Howe Streets. This could affect accessibility and livability on these streets, although the LRT service would replace the suburban diesel buses currently using these streets.

· The elevated section of the all-surface/elevated option would split the Concord Pacific development site between BC Place stadium and the Cambie Bridge. This would reduce the current development potential of this site and would shade part of Cooper's Park, south of Pacific Boulevard. From an urban design aspect, the coherence of the neighbourhood from Cambie to the Plaza of Nations would be affected with an elevated system running through it. City guidelines recommend up to a 30 metre separation between residential towers and the existing road bridges. Applying these guidelines to the proposed line could affect a large swath through the neighbourhood, affecting the development economics for the projects. Including development impacts on the south side of False Creek, this alignment could affect up to 800 planned residential units. The costs of purchasing these development rights would outweigh any savings from not tunnelling. Waterfront parks are valued by residents, especially in dense downtown neighbourhoods where they serve not only waterfront developments but also downtown neighbourhoods with limited park supply. Structures that could limit the utility of parks are of concern. Additionally, the elevated option would conflict with the Pacific Boulevard off-ramp from the Cambie Street Bridge, either requiring its removal or the elevated guideway to fly over it.

Transit network
At grade LRT operation on Granville would require the relocation of the ten local bus routes that currently operate on the Mall. The Granville Street right-of-way is not sufficient to accommodate surface light rail and intense local bus service while maintaining the sidewalk widths required for this major pedestrian thoroughfare. Relocating local bus services to other downtown streets, like Seymour and Howe Streets, would compromise the ease of using the bus route network, and City goals to maintain bus routes on two-way streets with increasedbus priority. The current ability to provide a seamless transit service the length of Granville would be lost with LRT proposals that run along only part of the Mall.

Conclusion

After considering the proposed surface alignments in terms of service coverage, urban fit, property acquisition requirements, and potential consequences for the rest of the downtown transit network, staff recommend that RAV be in a tunnel throughout the downtown.

https://council.vancouver.ca/20030422/rr2.htm



https://council.vancouver.ca/20030422/rr2b.htm

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Do you have the original PDF source for that?
I would like to see the original documents so I can try to figure out why there was no station there, because it's really strange.

It's so long ago I doubt you'll find anything on online about the "Reference Allignment Concept" that pre-dates the RFP process.

At the Environmental Assessment database, here:
https://www.projects.eao.gov.bc.ca/p/58851099aaecd9001b812b85/documents?pageSize=662&currentPage=1

You'll find documents from about the time of the RFP there. Have fun!

Here's a diagram of the stations showing "Robson Station" situated south of the eventual station.
You'll also recall that Westminster Station and Richmond Centre Station were also consolidated into one station
at Richmond-Brighouse Station to save costs as well.
https://www.projects.eao.gov.bc.ca/api/p...ownload/RAVP%20Reference%20Alignment.pdf

and a close up in here:
https://www.projects.eao.gov.bc.ca/api/p...Alignment%20Drawings%20-%20Vancouver.pdf

EDIT:

Here's a "Project Definition Phase" document that references Nelson Station and Dunsmuir Station.
You may not find the reasoning for the consolidation. Strange that the diagrams later in that report show Robson Station.

https://www.projects.eao.gov.bc.ca/api/p...Vancouver%20Segment%20%28Part%202%29.pdf

This profile shows Nelson Station and Dunsmuir Station in downtown tunnels that are much deeper than the as-built line
as it proposes to go under the Dunsmuir Tunnel (and a bridge over False Creek).
The as-built Canada Line goes above the Dunsmuir Tunnel.


https://www.projects.eao.gov.bc.ca/api/p...Vancouver%20Segment%20%28Part%202%29.pdf

The first of these shows a tunnel under False Creek, shallower stations and Robson Station, closer to what was built.
Note the 5% grade between Robson and Pacific Blvd stations. A Nelson Station at shallow depth could have meant too steep a grade to Pacific Blvd or a deeper Robson Station (i.e to allign under Dunsmuir Tunnel).


https://www.projects.eao.gov.bc.ca/api/p...Vancouver%20Segment%20%28Part%202%29.pdf


NOTE: Remember that "Reference Concepts" (such as the station diagrams, etc.) are NOT what the successful Proponent has submitted - they are just suggestions by the government.
The RFP has specific "Required Elements" that the successful proponent incorporates into its proposal..

Interesting read:

Project Definition Report Summary:
https://www.projects.eao.gov.bc.ca/api/p...ject%20Definition%20Report%20Summary.pdf

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by officedweller

It's so long ago I doubt you'll find anything on online about the "Reference Allignment Concept" that pre-dates the RFP process.

At the Environmental Assessment database, here:
https://www.projects.eao.gov.bc.ca/p/58851099aaecd9001b812b85/documents?pageSize=662&currentPage=1

You'll find documents from about the time of the RFP there. Have fun!

Here's a diagram of the stations showing "Robson Station" situated south of the eventual station.
You'll also recall that Westminster Station and Richmond Centre Station were also consolidated into one station
at Richmond-Brighouse Station to save costs as well.
https://www.projects.eao.gov.bc.ca/api/p...ownload/RAVP%20Reference%20Alignment.pdf

and a close up in here:
https://www.projects.eao.gov.bc.ca/api/p...Alignment%20Drawings%20-%20Vancouver.pdf

EDIT:

Here's a "Project Definition Phase" document that references Nelson Station and Dunsmuir Station.
You may not find the reasoning for the consolidation. Strange that the diagrams later in that report show Robson Station.

https://www.projects.eao.gov.bc.ca/api/p...Vancouver%20Segment%20%28Part%202%29.pdf

This profile shows Nelson Station and Dunsmuir Station in downtown tunnels that are much deeper than the as-built line
as it proposes to go under the Dunsmuir Tunnel (and a bridge over False Creek).
The as-built Canada Line goes above the Dunsmuir Tunnel.


https://www.projects.eao.gov.bc.ca/api/p...Vancouver%20Segment%20%28Part%202%29.pdf

The first of these shows a tunnel under False Creek, shallower stations and Robson Station, closer to what was built.
Note the 5% grade between Robson and Pacific Blvd stations. A Nelson Station at shallow depth could have meant too steep a grade to Pacific Blvd or a deeper Robson Station (i.e to allign under Dunsmuir Tunnel).


https://www.projects.eao.gov.bc.ca/api/p...Vancouver%20Segment%20%28Part%202%29.pdf


NOTE: Remember that "Reference Concepts" (such as the station diagrams, etc.) are NOT what the successful Proponent has submitted - they are just suggestions by the government.
The RFP has specific "Required Elements" that the successful proponent incorporates into its proposal..

Interesting read:

Project Definition Report Summary:
https://www.projects.eao.gov.bc.ca/api/p...ject%20Definition%20Report%20Summary.pdf

Thanks. That's pretty helpful.


I don't think Richmond-Brighouse was really consolidated- it's more like they terminated at Westminister.

It's a shame, because despite how cheap data is nowadays, the Internet isn't forever...

Ironically, I found finding the original Expo Line stuff easier to find than the Canada Line stuff.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Generally speaking, there's a big gap in the 00s and early 10s because most organizations/companies/news agencies/etc wiped their old content every time they redesigned the site.

[twoNeurons]

LRT from Steveston to Brighouse station... partly along the existing old streetcar ROW continuing East along Westminster Hwy, eventually terminating in Surrey somewhere... Scott Road maybe. That makes more sense as an extension. Surrey to Richmond has very little in the way of connections.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by fredinno

I don't think Richmond-Brighouse was really consolidated- it's more like they terminated at Westminister.

It's a bit farther south - it was supposed to be at Westminster Hwy and the next closer to Granville.
Alderbridge Station was also later moved south to Lansdowne.


https://www.projects.eao.gov.bc.ca/api/p...egarding%20the%20Richmond%20stations.pdf

There are also a couple of other allignments in that doc showing Nelson Station options in pages 18 and 19.


https://www.projects.eao.gov.bc.ca/api/p...nd%20RAVP%20Bus%20Network%20Strategy.pdf


https://www.projects.eao.gov.bc.ca/api/p...nd%20RAVP%20Bus%20Network%20Strategy.pdf

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

LRT from Steveston to Brighouse station... partly along the existing old streetcar ROW continuing East along Westminster Hwy, eventually terminating in Surrey somewhere... Scott Road maybe. That makes more sense as an extension. Surrey to Richmond has very little in the way of connections.

Let's see a rapidBus there first.

Also, there's already bus connections from Richmond to 22nd and Metrotown via Hwy 91.

Also, there was never a streetcar route via Westminster Hwy. Are you thinking of Marine Dr?

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Generally speaking, there's a big gap in the 00s and early 10s because most organizations/companies/news agencies/etc wiped their old content every time they redesigned the site.

Yeah, shame. Data used to be more expensive back in the day, so maybe not so much in the future.



---
Also, very side note, but the 'old' Canada Line tracks could also be used as track storage if the Canada Line is replaced.
Doesn't really change the economics of replacing the Canada -it's still not really worth it for the foreseeable future, but still- I wanted to just point that out.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by officedweller

It's so long ago I doubt you'll find anything on online about the "Reference Allignment Concept" that pre-dates the RFP process.

At the Environmental Assessment database, here:
https://www.projects.eao.gov.bc.ca/p/58851099aaecd9001b812b85/documents?pageSize=662&currentPage=1

You'll find documents from about the time of the RFP there. Have fun!

Here's a diagram of the stations showing "Robson Station" situated south of the eventual station.
You'll also recall that Westminster Station and Richmond Centre Station were also consolidated into one station
at Richmond-Brighouse Station to save costs as well.


and a close up in here:


EDIT:

Here's a "Project Definition Phase" document that references Nelson Station and Dunsmuir Station.
You may not find the reasoning for the consolidation. Strange that the diagrams later in that report show Robson Station.


This profile shows Nelson Station and Dunsmuir Station in downtown tunnels that are much deeper than the as-built line
as it proposes to go under the Dunsmuir Tunnel (and a bridge over False Creek).
The as-built Canada Line goes above the Dunsmuir Tunnel.


The first of these shows a tunnel under False Creek, shallower stations and Robson Station, closer to what was built.
Note the 5% grade between Robson and Pacific Blvd stations. A Nelson Station at shallow depth could have meant too steep a grade to Pacific Blvd or a deeper Robson Station (i.e to allign under Dunsmuir Tunnel).


NOTE: Remember that "Reference Concepts" (such as the station diagrams, etc.) are NOT what the successful Proponent has submitted - they are just suggestions by the government.
The RFP has specific "Required Elements" that the successful proponent incorporates into its proposal..

Interesting read:

That's a nice reference paper to have. I probably could have asked a couple of the authors that I work with, but this is much easier

Thanks.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

LRT from Steveston to Brighouse station... partly along the existing old streetcar ROW continuing East along Westminster Hwy, eventually terminating in Surrey somewhere... Scott Road maybe. That makes more sense as an extension. Surrey to Richmond has very little in the way of connections.

I think a feeder LRT/streetcar system from Steveston to the Canada Line would work, maybe even with branches to the Oval and continuing on Garden City Way up to Bridgeport Station.

[dleung]

Who are the names of those involved in the 40m platforms, the shortening of the Brighouse segment, and the single tracking? It would be nice to drag them through the mud, or at least wrest some commentary from them on what went wrong and how government can avoid doing such stupid again.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by dleung

Who are the names of those involved in the 40m platforms, the shortening of the Brighouse segment, and the single tracking? It would be nice to drag them through the mud, or at least wrest some commentary from them on what went wrong and how government can avoid doing such stupid again.

For the first, that'll be Gordon Campbell's Liberals - who forced a P3 and fast-tracking for the Olympics - and Mayor Derek Corrigan, Mayor Don McLean and Councillor David Cadman, among others - who insisted the whole thing was a waste of money and should be scrapped - resulting in a watered-down, cheaper design with smaller stations and platforms; all are no longer in office.

For the second and third, Mayor Malcolm Brodie and council. They thought SkyTrain was ugly and wanted a streetcar, and when they didn't get that, they insisted the Richmond segment be minimalized to reduce the ugliness... but Brodie has also been reelected over and over again since at least '05 with 2/3rds majorities or higher (and was around to reject the Richmond Centre bus loop), so karma will have to wait a while longer.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

For the first, that'll be Gordon Campbell's Liberals (who forced a P3 and fast-tracking for the Olympics) and Mayor Derek Corrigan (who insisted that the whole thing was a waste of money), resulting in a watered-down, cheaper design with smaller stations and platforms; both are no longer in office.

For the second and third, Mayor Malcolm Brodie and council - they thought SkyTrain was ugly and wanted a streetcar, and when they didn't get that, they insisted the Richmond segment be minimalized to reduce the ugliness. Brodie has also been reelected over and over again since at least '05 with 2/3rds majorities or higher, so karma will have to wait a while longer.

They should have just built the line up to Bridgeport and phased out the line instead, even though the fact it doesn't go directly to the Airport was a problem.

I don't think it's 100% fair to blame them though- to an extent, this was partially self-inflicted by the NDP building the useless Millennium Phase 1 segment without either the Evergreen segment (which was a major goal after getting the connection to Surrey) or the Broadway Segment (which needed the capacity.)

Hence, the line underperformed, and any support for future expansions of the network were hampered.


That, and the fact the NDP had been kicked out of power largely on the back of having spent a ton of money on boondoggles, the political priority became to spend as little money as possible to avoid future boondoggles.




There's also the CoV council, who made the dumb decision of designating the Cambie median 'historical', and thus, the obvious solution of having an elevated line south of 16th (where Cambie is wide enough to allow for elevated SkyTrain), or King Edwards Ave, where the actual median begins) impossible.

Without this option, costs rose, and cost-cutting had to be more severe than they should have been.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Cambie's been a Heritage Boulevard since 1930-47 (Council merely made it official in '93), so probably never on the table. Not a big deal.

Originally Posted by officedweller

I think a feeder LRT/streetcar system from Steveston to the Canada Line would work, maybe even with branches to the Oval and continuing on Garden City Way up to Bridgeport Station.

There's even an old streetcar ROW they can use... assuming they can un-convert it from park space.