NASHVILLE | Development Showcase

[Dale]

Nashville’s explosive growth suggests that mass transit is not a major concern for younger workers.

[Texcitement]

Originally Posted by Dale

Nashville’s explosive growth suggests that mass transit is not a major concern for younger workers.

I get that, but I think Nashville's core will eventually choke without mass transit. I am an advocate of BRT, and there are some great routes (still available) that lend themselves perfectly to BRT. We're looking at a radius of 5 miles, and Nashville is perfectly suited to that sort of development.

[BnaBreaker]

Originally Posted by Dale

Nashville’s explosive growth suggests that mass transit is not a major concern for younger workers.

I think it probably suggests more that Nashville has enough going for it currently that the city draws them here despite any practical mass transit. But that doesn't mean many of them wouldn't prefer to have that as an option, and it doesn't mean that Nashville will always have enough of a cool factor to overshadow that shortcoming.

[nashvilleron]

I don't know how many of you watch a YouTube channel "The World According to Briggs"? This channel always has a top 10 at its center, but he uses stats to get at the top 10.

For instance, a recent video of the top 10 reasons people are not moving to Atlanta list two concerning mass transit. One is the traffic being horrible and the other is the mass transit sucks.

Other stupid reasons were crime and that was a perception that crime was bad when it was only 20% above the national average. I think that is due to the news media playing up every violent crime in the city. They are cutting their own throat doing that. The number 10 on the list was not close to an ocean. I know that is a stupid reason, but these folks moving from CA & NY want to be near a beach. After coming back from FL, I do not see the reason why as I hate that state and everything in it. I thought I would give it a shot but no go. My opinion did not change. I do not like the beach or the state. Too much traffic, too many people. But I digress.

Nashville is going to have to do something about the traffic and address mass transit otherwise the business relocations will stop, the population in Davidson has already started to suffer because of this. You can't just add more sprawl to the issue without transit. The roads will not handle it. This will be the straw that breaks the camel's back here. Orlando's traffic was a mess, Miami's traffic was a mess, and their mass transit system sucks just like Atlanta's. It works well in the downtown area with the Metromover, but the Metro Rail is north south, and the weekend service is spotty. The Tri Rail system is not frequent enough into the city and the Brightline is too expensive at a minimum of $40 for a round trip.

The governor is thinking about toll roads and toll lanes here and is getting push back from both sides of the aisle. We have morons in state government all playing politics and doing nothing to help Nashville and the traffic situation. The basic layout of the interstate around the central core of the city has not changed since it was built in the 50's. If nothing changes, the area will wither and die. We have a mayor how is trying to stick it to the tourist every chance he gets now by bleeding that cash cow and they will find another place to go. The latest on that front is a 24/7 parking meter enforcement downtown. Come on 24/7 and on holidays. Raising to hotel tax too for the stadium. What are they going to do to pay for transit? This mayor is spending more than Dean ever thought about spending and he was Deans biggest critic. He is a little hypocrite.

OH well that is my rant this morning and I really do not see a bright future for Nashville at this point unless there is a change in Metro leadership and a change in attitude in state government.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Texcitement

Key point is this area is very hilly (pre-mountainous) and very very very rocky. We've even been compared to cities in the western USA, especially California cities

Well that's an exaggeration as a short drive down to Chattanooga illustrates what a city built near truly big hills/small mountains looks like. Nashville's hills are pretty mild - maybe on par with Kansas City.

I have read and heard that the main reason why completion of the I-840 loop is not being pursued is because of the blasting that would be required in Cheatham County.

But as we all know, 840 is WAY out there, between 25-30 miles from DT Nashville, so it could only really function as a true bypass and not a sprawl-inducing monster like the loops around Atlanta, Indianapolis, Columbus, etc.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Dale

Nashville’s explosive growth suggests that mass transit is not a major concern for younger workers.

People moving to Nashville from LA are used to spending a significant part of their week idling in their cars.

[Zapatan]

Anyone know anything about this development (TMAG Towers) or the group behind it? Looks awesome...

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threa...l-pro.2381036/

[downtownNashville]

Originally Posted by Zapatan

Anyone know anything about this development (TMAG Towers) or the group behind it? Looks awesome...

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threa...l-pro.2381036/

That project is dead. That site is allegedly being pursued by Tishman Speyer for a mixed use development now.

[Dale]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

People moving to Nashville from LA are used to spending a significant part of their week idling in their cars.

Low bar ?

[tdawg]

Nashville’s growth is incredibly impressive but I just don’t believe that it’s sustainable without a massive investment in public transit. Tampa/St. Pete are the only other fast growing large metro I can think of without rail or a plan for rail (e.g. Austin).

[Texcitement]

Originally Posted by tdawg

Nashville’s growth is incredibly impressive but I just don’t believe that it’s sustainable without a massive investment in public transit. Tampa/St. Pete are the only other fast growing large metro I can think of without rail or a plan for rail (e.g. Austin).

It's sustainable for the next 20 years because there are still many sites in the core that will accommodate somewhere around 20,000 more residential units, all within a three square mile area. The lack of efficient mass transit I believe is actually the reason why our downtown is becoming more dense each year. There are over 100 apartment blocks or towers underway in the core. I agree that some form of transit should start in the next 5 years to support that growth beyond 2035-2040. Obviously there's a good decade required from planning to opening the first phase of rail, slightly shorter for BRT and its first phase could be more extensive. I think BRT is the way to go for Nashville. A very extensive system could be built throughout the county. But right now, even the expressway system in town sucks.

Nashville in 2030 will have somewhere around 800-825K in the county, and 2.5 million in the urban metro. It really is dense in the core and the main inner rings. The core will have around 250-300K in the original 70 square-mile urban district, which never had more than 175K at its peak in the 1950s.

[Texcitement]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

Well that's an exaggeration as a short drive down to Chattanooga illustrates what a city built near truly big hills/small mountains looks like. Nashville's hills are pretty mild - maybe on par with Kansas City.

I have read and heard that the main reason why completion of the I-840 loop is not being pursued is because of the blasting that would be required in Cheatham County.

But as we all know, 840 is WAY out there, between 25-30 miles from DT Nashville, so it could only really function as a true bypass and not a sprawl-inducing monster like the loops around Atlanta, Indianapolis, Columbus, etc.

I guess I didn't word it quite well. There's a huge difference between Chattanooga and Nashville. Chattanooga is in a fairly narrow river valley. Nashville has a lot of rolling and rocky terrain. Chattanooga also didn't see rapid growth in the 1970s-1990s like Nashville did. Also as I understand Chattanooga still has their rail system through downtown intact. I've seen articles that they could put in a rail transit system within a year.

Nashville really has no model to follow in Chattanooga. Nashville was spread out as long ago as the 1970s. It has far more strong county seats surrounding it, and it's not contrained by a narrow pass between two mountain ranges. If you can believe it, traffic is even worse through Chattanooga than it is through Nashville.

[nashvilleron]

After just coming back from Miami and spending time in Atlanta, I should say both of those cities might as well not have rail. MARTA is extremely inefficient as it is now as it serves just a small area. That is why the traffic sucks so bad there. It does not serve the Metro area the way it should.

The same could be said about Miami although it is much more linear in nature, the rail service is also inefficient to points north as you have to change train service at Miami Interantional to the TriRail Which basically runs on the hour.

The weekend service for Metro Rail is spotty at best, at least when I was there.

The MetroMover was the best part of the system, however the transit workers were unfamiliar with the way it ran from what I saw.

The Brightline was much more expensive and is designed for the wealthier folks that will pay a minimum of $40 a round trip into Miami, something I was not willing to do.

From talking to the locals, the system is for the rich and the poor do without or just the buses. That is pretty much the same in Atlanta.

If they ever build a system in Nashville, there has to be a commuter rail system from the burbs plus a BRT system in Metro all going in and out of the downtown area with a system to get you around the downtown area which is expanding by the year.

Will it happen? Not without the help of the State and the Feds. If the office market ever returns which I think it will to a degree at some point, then the traffic will get a lot worse because of the number of residential units downtown, the number of tourists, and the amount of office that is still there.

Nashville has one commuter rail line, better than some cities!

Cities with no commuter rail:
San Antonio, TX
Tampa / St. Pete / Clearwater, FL
Indianapolis, IN
Columbus, OH
Raleigh-Durham, NC
Oklahoma City, OK Streetcar recently broke ground and is under construction

Memphis, TN
Richmond, VA
Louisville, KY
Rochester, NY
Milwaukee, WI 2-mile loop streetcar network

Detroit, MI There is a 2.9 mile people-mover loop in the downtown area, and the new Q-Line service is a 3-mile streetcar.

Orlando, FL Sun Rail to Miami

Cincinnati, OH Cinci streetcar system which broke ground in 2012, and opened in 2015.

Kansas City, MO The new KC streetcar opened in 2015. Very limited downtown

[Dale]

^ The irony is that Nashvillians spend less time on the road than cities that have extensive transit. To the question as to whether it will ever hit pain point, Houston never really did and it has like eight million population.

[CaptainJilliams]

Originally Posted by Dale

To the question as to whether it will ever hit pain point, Houston never really did and it has like eight million population.

Have you ever lived in Houston? I did for nearly 4 years, and I can tell you I felt the traffic pain, several times a week. Felt it on 610, I-10, and 290.

They have the widest freeway in the country and highways that rise 100 feet in the air, but it makes little difference when almost 90% of the city's population commutes by car. Living in Houston made me loathe driving, and thankfully moving to Chicago allowed me to leave my car at home almost all week.

Kicking the public transit can down the road is really going to limit the long-term growth of any city. We're already seeing the growing pains in cities like Nashville and Austin with highways that aren't adequate for handling the amount of traffic coming in. There have to be other options for moving people around, otherwise you are essentially "suburbanizing" the urban/city experience, which is terribly inefficient.

I love Nashville and all the development happening, it's exciting times. But please, start investing in public transit. Those "short" drive times aren't going to be as short in 5-7 years.

[Dale]

Originally Posted by CaptainJilliams

Have you ever lived in Houston? I did for nearly 4 years, and I can tell you I felt the traffic pain, several times a week. Felt it on 610, I-10, and 290.

They have the widest freeway in the country and highways that rise 100 feet in the air, but it makes little difference when almost 90% of the city's population commutes by car. Living in Houston made me loathe driving, and thankfully moving to Chicago allowed me to leave my car at home almost all week.

Kicking the public transit can down the road is really going to limit the long-term growth of any city. We're already seeing the growing pains in cities like Nashville and Austin with highways that aren't adequate for handling the amount of traffic coming in. There have to be other options for moving people around, otherwise you are essentially "suburbanizing" the urban/city experience, which is terribly inefficient.

I love Nashville and all the development happening, it's exciting times. But please, start investing in public transit. Those "short" drive times aren't going to be as short in 5-7 years.

Yes, yes, I understand that Houston has the sort of congestion you’d expect in a city it’s size. My point is that it contradicts the narrative of “When congestion gets bad enough, Nashville will build the commensurate mass transit.” Turns out people put up with it.

[tdawg]

It’s kind of ridiculous to say that Atlanta might as well not even have rail since over 80,000 people ride the trains each day in a city of only half a million and MARTA had the foresight to add a direct rail link to the airport decades ago. Also the system is about to begin an expansion and much of the growth in town is along the rail network.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by tdawg

It’s kind of ridiculous to say that Atlanta might as well not even have rail since over 80,000 people ride the trains each day in a city of only half a million and MARTA had the foresight to add a direct rail link to the airport decades ago. Also the system is about to begin an expansion and much of the growth in town is along the rail network.

Atlanta is a metro region of over 5 million. 80,000 daily trips is paltry for a metro region of that size.

Montreal, a city with a metro population 20% smaller, posts nearly 10x the daily ridership with over 750,000 daily trips. That is a transit oriented city.

Even Boston posts over 3 times the ridership in a smaller metro, and that's a direct US comparison.

[BnaBreaker]

Originally Posted by Dale

Yes, yes, I understand that Houston has the sort of congestion you’d expect in a city it’s size. My point is that it contradicts the narrative of “When congestion gets bad enough, Nashville will build the commensurate mass transit.” Turns out people put up with it.

I think a lot of people put up with it because that's the only way they've ever lived life. I don't mean that in a condescending way, I just mean that I think most people just assume that sitting in a traffic jam for a couple hours per day is just the way life is, because that's all they've ever known, so they don't even know what they're missing. Obviously even in cities with extensive mass transit systems a lot of people still prefer commuting by car, and that's fine, but I think providing folks with a viable alternative to that life is necessary for a truly healthy city to function. To me pointing at Houston and saying 'see, it worked for them' is kind of like trying to justify an all junk food diet by pointing out that there are still 700 lb people who are still technically alive.

[NYC2ATX]

Does anyone have any development news about Nashville?