Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Rileybo

Am I being disingenuous, or have I lived here long enough to see every planned development get down graded? If completed, The Point will be less than what’s shown in renderings, and what’s seen in the renderings now already ain’t anything to look forward to.

I don't think it's unique to Salt Lake - it's probably pretty common in a lot of cities.

I will say that Daybreak seems to have lived up to its initial proposal. Unfortunately, it's still disconnected and unwalkable on a larger scale.

[i-215]

Originally Posted by airhero

It’s like you’re building 5 Jordan landings on top of each other. The car centricity of it is the same.

Exactly. Pure density alone doesn't translate to walkability. Here in southern California, the city and suburbs of Los Angeles are incredibly dense (at least for west of the Mississippi River). But it looks like this:



This is "The City" in Orange, CA

No grid, to speak of. No thought how the neighborhood around it would access the site on foot. And a space in a garage generates the same amount of car traffic as a space on the ground. Being California, everyone drives here.

At best, this is what we can expect from The Point project. And we'll all feel pretty disappointed with it.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a car guy. I love freeways, and suburbs, and even Jordan Landing.

But we need to build the proper development in the proper way in the proper place. The Point is a one-time opportunity to build something VERY SPECIAL and unique that can serve as another "node" in a strategy of multi-nodal downtowns. And we're failing because "The Point" is not an urban note. It's a dense Jordan Landing — an adequate design for emerging suburbs of Eagle Mountain, Erda, or Eden. But NOT for here.

Utahns 30 years from now will be disappointed in us if we don't demand better now.

[Marvland]

Originally Posted by Comrade

Don't worry. Salt Lake isn't getting a MLB team anytime soon. Probably not for a couple decades and who knows what the valley's landscape will look like at that point?

You speak with such authority on this every time it comes up. And I think it's adorable. The ownership group is put together. The cash is there, the motivation is there. That is literally all it takes.

[ThePriceWentUp]

Originally Posted by Comrade

Don't worry. Salt Lake isn't getting a MLB team anytime soon. Probably not for a couple decades and who knows what the valley's landscape will look like at that point?

It’s no surprise the development of The Point aligns with a potential Winter Olympics. Much easier to sell an enormous stadium to taxpayers when it would be host to the largest sporting event in the world. What TRAX, U of U development, etc was for 2002, the Point will be for the 2030/34 Winter Olympics. Having worked closely with the proposal, in the state’s mind this is their chance to establish ‘family and community values’ as an essential component of our states’s tendency towards innovation. That’s not Daybreak but it’s not Salt Lake either. Expect something in between but with much much higher quality builds than what we are accustomed to in SLC.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Marvland

You speak with such authority on this every time it comes up. And I think it's adorable. The ownership group is put together. The cash is there, the motivation is there. That is literally all it takes.

I speak with authority because I follow the expansion talk and Salt Lake just isn't on the national radar for an expansion team. They're down the list.

The motivation has to align with the potential. This isn't 1979 where the NBA Finals is on tape-delay and the NBA is averaging 10,000 fans per game, which made it easier for Salt Lake to land the Jazz. The landscape is still an uphill battle where a lot has to go into Salt Lake proving a viable market for the MLB and I don't think it's there yet.

And it's why, almost every time major national media outlets discuss expansion, Salt Lake is either only mentioned in passing - or not mentioned much at all.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by ThePriceWentUp

It’s no surprise the development of The Point aligns with a potential Winter Olympics. Much easier to sell an enormous stadium to taxpayers when it would be host to the largest sporting event in the world. What TRAX, U of U development, etc was for 2002, the Point will be for the 2030/34 Winter Olympics. Having worked closely with the proposal, in the state’s mind this is their chance to establish ‘family and community values’ as an essential component of our states’s tendency towards innovation. That’s not Daybreak but it’s not Salt Lake either. Expect something in between but with much much higher quality builds than what we are accustomed to in SLC.

I don't see a 51,000+ stadium going up at the Point and that's how much RES sits, which would be perfect for the opening ceremonies of the Winter Olympics.

So, there would be no need to build a new stadium there when a larger one already exists to host the opening/closing ceremonies.

And the more recent MLB stadiums seat far fewer than RES does currently (and would expanded out to host the games, as remember, for the Olympics, it surpassed 50,000 in capacity with temporary seating back in 2002).

The last MLB stadium built that sat over 50,000 was Coors Field in Denver.

Since 2000, here's the capacity of every new MLB stadium:

Comerica Park (41,083)
PNC Park (38,747)
American Family Field (41,900)
Great American Ball Park (42,319)
Petco Park (40,209)
Citizens Bank Park (42,792)
Busch Stadium (45,494)
Nationals Park (41,339)
Yankee Stadium (46,537)
Citi Field (41,922)
Target Field (38,544)
LoanDepot Park (36,742)
Truist Park (41,084)
Globe Life Field (40,300)

Almost every stadium built this century seats 10,000+ fewer fans than RES. I just don't see the Olympics going smaller and they certainly aren't going to buck the trend and build a 50,000 seat stadium out there that they plan to later convert to a MLB park.

[wrendog]

Originally Posted by Comrade

I don't see a 51,000+ stadium going up at the Point and that's how much RES sits, which would be perfect for the opening ceremonies of the Winter Olympics.

So, there would be no need to build a new stadium there when a larger one already exists to host the opening/closing ceremonies.

And the more recent MLB stadiums seat far fewer than RES does currently (and would expanded out to host the games, as remember, for the Olympics, it surpassed 50,000 in capacity with temporary seating back in 2002).

The last MLB stadium built that sat over 50,000 was Coors Field in Denver.

Since 2000, here's the capacity of every new MLB stadium:

Comerica Park (41,083)
PNC Park (38,747)
American Family Field (41,900)
Great American Ball Park (42,319)
Petco Park (40,209)
Citizens Bank Park (42,792)
Busch Stadium (45,494)
Nationals Park (41,339)
Yankee Stadium (46,537)
Citi Field (41,922)
Target Field (38,544)
LoanDepot Park (36,742)
Truist Park (41,084)
Globe Life Field (40,300)

Almost every stadium built this century seats 10,000+ fewer fans than RES. I just don't see the Olympics going smaller and they certainly aren't going to buck the trend and build a 50,000 seat stadium out there that they plan to later convert to a MLB park.

Well to be fair, here are the attendance capacities for winter Olympics recently

Beijing 80k (anomaly. Stadium built for Summer Olympics)
Pyeongchang 35k
Sochi 40 k
Vancouver 55k
Turin 30k
Nagano 35k


An MLB size stadium seems reasonable. Also, I guarantee they could easily add temporary seating if needed for the Olympics

[Atlas]

So is the as-yet-unannounced stadium the reason why The Point has so much planned parking? I recall that the plan called for 40,000 parking spaces for the entire development.

If the intention all along was to bring a huge stadium into the mix, this whole "public engagement process" and planning effort has been a farce.

Originally Posted by ThePriceWentUp

It’s no surprise the development of The Point aligns with a potential Winter Olympics. Much easier to sell an enormous stadium to taxpayers when it would be host to the largest sporting event in the world. What TRAX, U of U development, etc was for 2002, the Point will be for the 2030/34 Winter Olympics. Having worked closely with the proposal, in the state’s mind this is their chance to establish ‘family and community values’ as an essential component of our states’s tendency towards innovation. That’s not Daybreak but it’s not Salt Lake either. Expect something in between but with much much higher quality builds than what we are accustomed to in SLC.

That makes sense considering there won't be any establishments at The Point serving alcohol unless the legislature changes the laws.

Something tells me that Draper won't be allowing any new homeless shelters either.

[Marvland]

Originally Posted by Comrade

I speak with authority because I follow the expansion talk and Salt Lake just isn't on the national radar for an expansion team. They're down the list.

The motivation has to align with the potential. This isn't 1979 where the NBA Finals is on tape-delay and the NBA is averaging 10,000 fans per game, which made it easier for Salt Lake to land the Jazz. The landscape is still an uphill battle where a lot has to go into Salt Lake proving a viable market for the MLB and I don't think it's there yet.

And it's why, almost every time major national media outlets discuss expansion, Salt Lake is either only mentioned in passing - or not mentioned much at all.

Thank god the national media doesn't make these decisions. Individuals and groups of people with lots of money do. The site selection buzz is strong in the real estate community RN. And the re-organization of the Jazz is a dead giveaway.

[Schmoe]

Originally Posted by Marvland

Thank god the national media doesn't make these decisions. Individuals and groups of people with lots of money do. The site selection buzz is strong in the real estate community RN. And the re-organization of the Jazz is a dead giveaway.

Good point. If that were how it worked, the Sacramento Kings would now be in their 10th season as the Seattle Supersonics.

[TheGeographer]

Originally Posted by Marvland

Thank god the national media doesn't make these decisions. Individuals and groups of people with lots of money do. The site selection buzz is strong in the real estate community RN. And the re-organization of the Jazz is a dead giveaway.

Thing is there are a lot of other cities lining up for the next NFL or MLB expansion that have groups with just as much money in cities like Las Vegas, Nashville, Portland, Austin, Orlando, Mexico City, Montreal and even London (NFL). From what I’ve read Las Vegas and Nashville are very interested when it comes to MLB expansion. The other factor are the leagues and their interests. While the MLB is rumored to expand in the next decade, they haven’t expanded for over 2 decades. The NFL, well let’s just say we are far down the list in terms of “next” city with big players in cities like Toronto, London, Mexico City and other mega cities where the NFL wants to expand to. The MLB and NFL have their own agendas and I’m not sure small market SLC is necessarily on their radar. They’re about making money and we’ll have to compete with many other equal players or even bigger players. For MLB that will be a maximum of 4 new locations a minimum of 2 depending on if Oakland and Tampa move. If 4 new locations become available for MLB I could see SLC being a possible location for a new team. If only 2 become available, then I think Vegas and Nashville have the upper hand because they are just as interested as SLC, also have groups with money wanting an MLB team, and have some inside connections to the MLB. From what I’ve been reading we may be one of a handful of cities that consistently hosts the Winter Olympics because of our snow and climate change ousting other cities from being able to host in the future. Our outdoors scene whether that be the Winter Olympics, professional climbing etc. is what is the major draw for SLC, hence that giant outdoor convention that has come back. One more point, just because you build or have a stadium doesn’t mean you get a team. Look at Kansas City and the T-mobile arena they built. They really want an NHL or NBA team, even built a brand new arena, but haven’t landed one yet. Their population is similar to ours and is growing slower than ours but is growing.

[Boz]

Baseball, football, blah blah blah. Nothing but conjecture...


Here's a shot from today showing a bunch of good stuff.

[Atlas]

Astra starting to move upward more quickly now. Great to see!

That crosswalk to 255 S State needs to be improved.

[i2theSKY]

Looks like the core of Astra is slightly taller than the Maverik building. Should soon become visible when viewing downtown from the east!

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Marvland

Thank god the national media doesn't make these decisions. Individuals and groups of people with lots of money do. The site selection buzz is strong in the real estate community RN. And the re-organization of the Jazz is a dead giveaway.

This is just a silly argument. It's extremely rare, if not basically unheard of, that a city goes from barely being batted around as an expansion candidate, to landing a team - at least in regards to the four major leagues.

Take the Nets. They formally announced their intentions to move from New Jersey to Brooklyn in 2012. Yet there was talks about the Nets moving to Brooklyn all the way back into the 1990s and was talked about in 2004 here.

The MLB has suggested they are set on 32 teams. They currently have 30. The good news for a market like Salt Lake is that there are two teams that are consistently talked about in regards to relocation: Tampa and Oakland. So, there's the potential for four new cities.

The question is whether or not there's a legitimate foundation set up to bring a team to Salt Lake over other, nationally recognized cities.

Nashville has a committee set up to do just that:

https://www.mlbmusiccity.com/

So does Portland:

https://portlanddiamondproject.com/

So does Montreal:

https://montrealbaseballproject.com/en/about/

Salt Lake? Zilch.

Also, buzz around the A's moving almost always mentions Vegas:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article...commissioner-ranked-dead-attendance.html

No guarantee - but the noise is much more significant than anything Salt Lake related.

Salt Lake should focus on a NHL team - which is far more likely at this point than a MLB one.

[Orlando]

This was Portland's latest proposal:

https://tvaarchitects.com/project/portland-major-league-baseball-stadium/

[taboubak]

If by some miracle we got an MLB team, the best location for a stadium by FAR is the parking lot on 300 w and S Temple kitty corner to Vivint Arena. You could have center field open up to a fantastic view of the skyline and mountains from there with home plate on the corner of 300 W and N Temple. Since SLC has the biggest blocks ever too, the dimensions seem to match the dimensions of Safeco field in Seattle so it looks to be plenty big enough. Skyline views are a HUGE part of many of the most iconic MLB stadiums building it anywhere but downtown would be travesty and hopefully shot down by MLB officials. I don't know of many MLB stadiums off the that aren't in immediate proximity to downtown so hopefully they would shoot that idea down. Only one I can think of is Kansas City.

[Dallas Snob]

This is brutal. Isnt it enough that this can has been kicked down the road on this forum repeatedly. Why does this forum continually and habitually keep defaulting to absolutely insignificant drivel. Every single time that the forum just barely starts getting on track again, it falls of a cliff. It is absolutely brutal. And just pointing this out, will get me pummeled for saying so. Oh, well. GO TO IT GUYS! Lets rehash your theories about NOTHING for the umpteenth time. And PLEASE go on about it for page after page after page. PLEASE dont mention the THOUSANDS of developments going on.

[stayinginformed]

In development news, Edison House opened on December 5th. In the Tribune article it said they had 3,000 initial applications for the $225 per month membership. If all those become members, that is $675,000 a month and $8,100,000 a year just in membership fees.

https://www.sltrib.com/artsliving/food/2022/12/22/take-look-inside-edison-house/

[Atlas]

Originally Posted by taboubak

If by some miracle we got an MLB team, the best location for a stadium by FAR is the parking lot on 300 w and S Temple kitty corner to Vivint Arena. You could have center field open up to a fantastic view of the skyline and mountains from there with home plate on the corner of 300 W and N Temple. Since SLC has the biggest blocks ever too, the dimensions seem to match the dimensions of Safeco field in Seattle so it looks to be plenty big enough. Skyline views are a HUGE part of many of the most iconic MLB stadiums building it anywhere but downtown would be travesty and hopefully shot down by MLB officials. I don't know of many MLB stadiums off the that aren't in immediate proximity to downtown so hopefully they would shoot that idea down. Only one I can think of is Kansas City.

I agree that you could probably (just barely) fit a modest MLB stadium in a city block in SLC. Smith's Ballpark fits with room to spare, after all. A large stadium like Coors Field in Denver wouldn't fit. An NHL arena would easily fit. We have two block-sized parking lots downtown, both owned by the Church. Given Block 85's proximity to the Temple and headquarters, my guess is that they would rather sell Block 40 (on 400S/Main) to be developed for a stadium.

Another great location would be at the Gadsby power plant site owned by Rocky Mountain Power. I think Orlando is involved with the planning of that redevelopment. Has there been any talk of accommodating a stadium there if the opportunity arises, Orlando?

Originally Posted by stayinginformed

In development news, Edison House opened on December 5th. In the Tribune article it said they had 3,000 initial applications for the $225 per month membership. If all those become members, that is $675,000 a month and $8,100,000 a year just in membership fees.

https://www.sltrib.com/artsliving/food/2022/12/22/take-look-inside-edison-house/

Definitely not something I would ever use but this definitively shows that there is a clientele in SLC for this sort of thing that has been heretofore underserved.