Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[Paniolo Man]

Originally Posted by Rileybo

The idea of demolishing the COB is redick. It won’t ever happen.

Exactly. These basic steel buildings are basically infinitely repairable and upgradable. This is why the skyscrapers of the 1930s are still around, because bringing them up to modern standards is fairly easy. Buildings like the COB get torn down when they are functionally obsolete, which COB isn't. That being said it likely needs the kind of work any 50 year old building needs. They'll want to overhaul/replace HVAC and electrical systems along with any interior aesthetic upgrades they deem necessary.

The only situation I would see them recladding the building is if they need to remove significant portions of the existing exterior to add lateral bracing to bring it up to seismic code.

The LDS church doesn't seem to be short on cash. I assume they'll modernize the building once their massive temple square project is done.

[Ironweed]

Never been a fan of the COB. I think it is ugly, but I am assuming some architectural genius would say otherwise. A recladding with more windows might be attractive?

To add to the insanity; Comrade was arrested yesterday as he broke into the permanently parked backhoe on 400 South and West Temple at around 2:00 a.m. when he began digging a hole. He then B-lined over to the Moda-Luxe sight, broke through the fence and began doing the same thing. His next stop was the parking lot next to the courthouse where he was eventually apprehended. Police were nervous by Comrade's 'It' appearance and thought they might be in for it. 'It' smashed up one patrol car, and bullets were deflected by the shovel on the front of the backhoe. The police were losing the fight until one of the cops used a squirt gun. That got Comrade out of the vehicle and he engaged with his own squirt gun. The melee ended with a police pile on Comrade. When asked why he used the backhoe, he replied: "The developers have no brain and cannot get things done soon enough!! I'll do it myself!!!"

A toast to Comrade!

[Rileybo]

Originally Posted by freeshavocado

Literally no one has ever considered doing that.

Obviously no one with the means to do it will do it, however before I made an account I lurked around this forum for about ten years and I can recount dozens of conversations with people proposing a reflective steel reclad.

[Rileybo]

If the church were to do a major renovation, common sense will tell you that they’d focus on updating the interior of the building rather than the exterior. The big wigs inside would prefer new offices over a nicer outside.

[mstar]

I think the COB is fine. It is not an amazing building by any means, but it is a building style what was the norm in the 70's. I hope it stays and that we continue to get other, larger more up to date buildings. Cities are more interesting with various architectural styles over different time periods. We have some much older buildings that I hope never come down either. Anyway, this is just my opinion.

[rockies]

Originally Posted by mstar

I think the COB is fine. It is not an amazing building by any means, but it is a building style what was the norm in the 70's. I hope it stays and that we continue to get other, larger more up to date buildings. Cities are more interesting with various architectural styles over different time periods. We have some much older buildings that I hope never come down either. Anyway, this is just my opinion.

Yes, not every building needs to be a masterpiece and I think the COB is sort of a local landmark at this point. The idea of tearing down a huge building for anything but major structural issues is kind of sad tbh

[Comrade]

If the COB was a minor building in the skyline, I'd be totally okay keeping it as is. But not only is it essentially the city's tallest at the moment, it sits isolated from the rest of the skyline. It's ugly. It's boring. It's cold looking. It's got no character whatsoever and I promise you, it's not a local landmark. It's only a landmark for what resides inside it - not for the way it looks. Which means, if you change the look, it will still remain a landmark solely because it's the headquarters of the LDS Church. That's it.

If they tear it down to rebuild something better? I am 100% on board with it because I don't think we'll miss the awful bulkiness of this building. I hope the LDS Church does build a larger, more modern tower - or at least renovates the COB so it's not so ghastly.

[Comrade]

I also think what really fucks the COB up is its bulkiness. I can tolerate the drab, near-windowless look. But it's fat as fuck and when you couple that with the style, it just looks awkward.

If the COB looked like this, I'd probably be more okay with keeping it as is (don't mind my shitty photoshop, I did it in like three minutes):



It'd look like a mini-AON Tower and I could dig it.

[Rileybo]

The COB is a staple of the city only because it was so much taller than anything else when it was built, and it has basically remained the tallest tower in town for 40 some odd years. Also look at any cartoon representation of the city.. that white tower is always there. It’s strange to see other smaller cities bloom while SLC’s skyline.. at least height wise.. has remained stagnant.

I’m not absolutely blown away by Astra but at least it’s not fugly like the COB, or fatter than Spider-Man’s villain Kingpin as is the Well Fargo Center. It’s a design I can look at and think “Alright, decent enough. It doesn’t embarrass the city.”

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by Rileybo

If the church were to do a major renovation, common sense will tell you that they’d focus on updating the interior of the building rather than the exterior. The big wigs inside would prefer new offices over a nicer outside.

The bigwigs aren't in the COB.

[Rileybo]

Originally Posted by Stenar

The bigwigs aren't in the COB.

You’re telling me JC doesn’t have an office with a mini fridge?

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Rileybo

The COB is a staple of the city only because it was so much taller than anything else when it was built, and it has basically remained the tallest tower in town for 40 some odd years. Also look at any cartoon representation of the city.. that white tower is always there. It’s strange to see other smaller cities bloom while SLC’s skyline.. at least height wise.. has remained stagnant.

I’m not absolutely blown away by Astra but at least it’s not fugly like the COB, or fatter than Spider-Man’s villain Kingpin as is the Well Fargo Center. It’s a design I can look at and think “Alright, decent enough. It doesn’t embarrass the city.”

The lack of height is really starting to show in the skyline. Despite a significant amount of tower development, it looks very similar today as it did ten years ago. Sure, if you look at it, you can see the new towers - but it doesn't change the actual skyline. None of these new towers have changed the skyline.

Point:





Obviously there is a difference. But in passing, the new buildings kinda start to blend in with the older because they're all the same height. They don't stand out, especially since they're all clustered together.

In fact, I'd say the skyline hasn't really seen a significant, distinct level of growth since the 1990s when One Utah Center and the American Stores Tower expanded the skyline south and were substantial entries overall - as that part of the skyline was smaller compared to the taller northern portion of the skyline by South Temple.

Point:



Even tho One Utah Center and American Stores weren't anything major in terms of height compared to previous developed buildings, their location absolutely altered the skyline a significant way that we've not really seen since.

And it's because they stand out waay more due to how little actual high-rise development existed.

But you also see that additional towers in that area, specifically 222 South Main, still blend into the skyline and don't really stand out.

My point? Well I'm kinda drunk. But beyond that, I'd say my point is that Salt Lake can see a continued development of the same-heightish towers in the same general area and they're all going to cluster together to kind of create a wall that isn't distinctive enough for the skyline to actually look like it's seeing significant growth.

Then you've got places like Austin, where the clear growth of the skyline is evident even in passing:

From 2001-2021:



We absolutely need to push upward. I'm hoping in the next ten years, we break 500 feet and then 600 feet. I think that would dramatically alter the skyline and give us an actual landmark building that we don't have because every major building is about the same height it seems.

[Rileybo]

Here’s the simplest case and point:

Notice how postcards, stock footage, and murals of the city can be from 1998 and most people never catch on when they’re seen all around in the year 2022?

[Juancrocco]

Here's my thing though, I think there's a little too much obsession over skylines going on. Yes they are cool, but it's mostly beneficial for those living just outside the city as a backdrop, whereas within downtown limits it's all about street engagement and general liveliness.

Houston, Vancouver, and other large cities have strong skylines. But let me tell you, outside of business hours in large swaths of the downtowns those places are dead. Shoot, Charlotte is always dead downtown no matter what day and time.

I travel around the country for work, and have stayed downtown in almost every major city in the US. Even when I link up with locals and go to the most engaging areas, few have as much foot traffic across districts and inter-connectedness as SLC. Either bars are relegated to a single street, or there are disparate areas with massive gaps between. What I like about salt lake is that for the most part things are happening throughout the downtown at all hours of the day. I live downtown and I'm never bored and there is never a lack of people crossing a crosswalk for example regardless of the hour.

Like we are constantly comparing Salt Lake to Denver and I'm just going to say it. Denver freaking blows. It's basically Nebraska, the airport is insanely far. And places like the 16th street mall are horrible with limited use. It's much bigger and definitely has cool things going on, but there are so many gaps between points of interest. So for me it's a great example of a city with taller buildings, more people, etc. But for the most part feels more bland and lifeless to me than our smaller downtown core any day of the week.

So skylines, yes they are cool for architectural reasons and for city identification/branding purposes. But I would much rather a real, connected downtown than a bunch of silent corporate monoliths like most US cities. And SLC is trending up in terms of the former. So I'm team density over skyline and I think Salt Lake is doing a good job with becoming more dense. Just have to keep insisting new projects have strong street engagement.

[Sight-Seer]

I tried to think of an iconic Salt Lake building and there isn't one. Right now, Salt Lake's skyline is very flat and bland. The closest thing to an iconic building for years has been the Church Office Building. But now "square Salt Lake" has grown up next to it until it doesn't stand out anymore. The Wells Fargo building is an interesting shape, but for some reason your eye kind of skips over it without seeing it. I always thought if it was cut in half and one half stacked on top of the other, it would be a cool-looking triangular building that was twice as tall. I think the Astra will be tall and distinctive enough to become iconic when it's done in a few years. I hope you'll be able to see more of it than just the very top.

[TheGeographer]

Originally Posted by Juancrocco

Here's my thing though, I think there's a little too much obsession over skylines going on. Yes they are cool, but it's mostly beneficial for those living just outside the city as a backdrop, whereas within downtown limits it's all about street engagement and general liveliness.

Houston, Vancouver, and other large cities have strong skylines. But let me tell you, outside of business hours in large swaths of the downtowns those places are dead. Shoot, Charlotte is always dead downtown no matter what day and time.

I travel around the country for work, and have stayed downtown in almost every major city in the US. Even when I link up with locals and go to the most engaging areas, few have as much foot traffic across districts and inter-connectedness as SLC. Either bars are relegated to a single street, or there are disparate areas with massive gaps between. What I like about salt lake is that for the most part things are happening throughout the downtown at all hours of the day. I live downtown and I'm never bored and there is never a lack of people crossing a crosswalk for example regardless of the hour.

Like we are constantly comparing Salt Lake to Denver and I'm just going to say it. Denver freaking blows. It's basically Nebraska, the airport is insanely far. And places like the 16th street mall are horrible with limited use. It's much bigger and definitely has cool things going on, but there are so many gaps between points of interest. So for me it's a great example of a city with taller buildings, more people, etc. But for the most part feels more bland and lifeless to me than our smaller downtown core any day of the week.

So skylines, yes they are cool for architectural reasons and for city identification/branding purposes. But I would much rather a real, connected downtown than a bunch of silent corporate monoliths like most US cities. And SLC is trending up in terms of the former. So I'm team density over skyline and I think Salt Lake is doing a good job with becoming more dense. Just have to keep insisting new projects have strong street engagement.

Sorry but your perception that SLC is among the liveliest cities seems a little far fetched. It’s much more engaging then 10 years ago but still has a long ways to go. To be fair I haven’t been to Houston or Vancouver, but I’ve heard both places can be fun places depending on what you do. They are large cities though so maybe the business districts are boring. To your point you would have to expand beyond the central business district for more fun.

As someone who’s spent significant amount of time in both Salt Lake and Denver they both have good things and bad things about them. Denver doesn’t “blow”. Neither does salt lake. Don’t be a homer. My friend who has spent time in both places and lived near downtown in both places has the perception that SLC is less busy, easier to navigate with the wide streets and more relaxed because there are less people to contend with. I tend to agree with his assessment. Two things SLC and Denver have in common at this point are a bunch of homeless people walking around downtown and two NBA teams that are fly over cities and haven’t won an NBA championship. Maybe you went to Denver in January or during a rainstorm when no one was out and about, but I grew up in both places and if you think SLC is in a league of its own then you must have stayed near your hotel in Denver and not explored some of the up and coming burgeoning neighborhoods like the Highlands and Rino with its urban artwork and breweries, or market street with all the great restaurant bars and historical brick buildings, or the areas around the capital and just south of the business district downtown. To your point these neighborhoods are not right in downtown but they are a part of downtown or adjacent. The area downtown Denver covers is just larger so it might not feel as closely connected as SLC. I would argue though SLC has the same issue. Having walked between gateway and beer bar many times I can tell you it’s not a short 5 min walk.

If I were a tourist and stayed in SLC between north temple and 200 S on State, then I would think SLC was not lively or fun, which we know is not true if you walk one block east on 200 S or one block west to Main Street. Seems like you’re holding other cities to a different standard. I personally love a lot of other cities I travel to from San Diego to the many cities on the east coast. Every city is unique and has something to learn from and something unique to offer.

This is all to say I do agree with you on the density and more people SLC is adding to the liveliness and helping. When I lived in downtown SLC 7 years ago it was a ghost town many days. Now when I go downtown it is more lively, and will only get better with more people moving there. I like SLC. I like Denver. I like a lot of other cities. I’m a city lover, hence why I’m in these forums. Take some time and read over the skyscraper forums of other cities. See what’s going on. Don’t just live with SLC blinders on. SLC is up and coming still and hopefully we get some more cool proposals coming thru the pipeline and don’t slow down development. And Comrade is right, we need some 500 ft+ towers to “level” up. We can agree to disagree

[Juancrocco]

Your response is valid for sure. But to clarify I’m definitely not an SLC homer just for being a homer’s sake. And I hop around other forums and like I said regularly visit most major cities in the US and have friends in each one so I don’t just stay near my hotel. I go to as many local spots as I can.

San Diego is awesome. Similarly Nashville and Austin’s I think do a great job in having both unique skylines as well as general liveliness spread out across the downtown. Worthy cities for Salt Lake to mimic. I mention Houston, Charlotte, Vancouver and others because they have great skylines but are superrrrr sterile with many high end units not being lived in and minimal street engagement. So those are my suggestions of cities SLC should avoid mimicking.

But point isn’t to say salt lake is the best. Point is to say that high rises make a skyline sure, but they don’t make a downtown. It’s a bout both. Brooklyn is a great example and it’s now starting to get iconic high rises.

So I think street engagement is the real battle salt lake needs to fight more so than just building height. Though I love having a new tallest just as much as anyone!

Projects like the gateway hotel, west quarter phase 1, the post, and even brinshore while having no real impact on the 5-mile out skyline are going to be huge for the city and make the downtown even better.

Can’t wait for the next project! Love the forum

[TheGeographer]

Originally Posted by Juancrocco

Your response is valid for sure. But to clarify I’m definitely not an SLC homer just for being a homer’s sake. And I hop around other forums and like I said regularly visit most major cities in the US and have friends in each one so I don’t just stay near my hotel. I go to as many local spots as I can.

San Diego is awesome. Similarly Nashville and Austin’s I think do a great job in having both unique skylines as well as general liveliness spread out across the downtown. Worthy cities for Salt Lake to mimic. I mention Houston, Charlotte, Vancouver and others because they have great skylines but are superrrrr sterile with many high end units not being lived in and minimal street engagement. So those are my suggestions of cities SLC should avoid mimicking.

But point isn’t to say salt lake is the best. Point is to say that high rises make a skyline sure, but they don’t make a downtown. It’s a bout both. Brooklyn is a great example and it’s now starting to get iconic high rises.

So I think street engagement is the real battle salt lake needs to fight more so than just building height. Though I love having a new tallest just as much as anyone!

Projects like the gateway hotel, west quarter phase 1, the post, and even brinshore while having no real impact on the 5-mile out skyline are going to be huge for the city and make the downtown even better.

Can’t wait for the next project! Love the forum

Thanks for the response and I agree with your many points. You got the long winded response out of me initially because of your Denver comment. I’m from there and so I took offense, and do not agree with your comments on Denver. The other cities though I haven’t traveled to so you could have some points there.

To your other points there are for sure cities that are more engaging than others. And density helps. Hopefully we can continue to have impactful projects at the street level. That is the level that matters as you mentioned. Many examples of cities in Europe without much height but great street level engagement that make the cities more interesting than their American counterparts with tall buildings and no street activity. Your Brooklyn’s example is great. Although SLC is structured differently it can look at what they’ve done. I’m greedy though and would like a little bit of both height and street engagement in SLC.

[BretUtah]

They have started construction on the new Asher Adams hotel at the Gateway. The old Thai Foon and Urban Outfitters locations have been torn out.

[ucsbgaucho]

Originally Posted by Juancrocco

San Diego is awesome. Similarly Nashville and Austin’s I think do a great job in having both unique skylines as well as general liveliness spread out across the downtown. Worthy cities for Salt Lake to mimic.

I grew up in San Diego, lived there most of my life. The Gaslamp Quarter is an amazingly engaging area of restaurants and bars, great nightlife, lots of activity and vibe. Petco Park has extended that liveliness away from the central Gaslamp area with it's own mixture of funky bars and restaurants. But even in SD, you walk a few blocks away in different directions and you're into office towers and homeless people.

The difference is then you pick up again with liveliness near the bay with the waterfront hotels. They're building a giant complex of office/hotel/retail area to replace the old US Navy Pacific Fleet HQ near the water, and the old Seaport Village is getting a $4b reimagining with an arena, museums, tech center, retail, hotels, even a 500 foot observation tower.

They're maximizing individual pockets of areas into self-contained entertainment districts, so you feel like you can have a good time in any one of them. SLC hasn't yet maximized even one area; Main Street is a good start with closing off the street for more pedestrian engagement, and the Gateway is making a valiant effort to be an entertainment destination. But to have good nightlife you need a mix of lots of different types of businesses willing to stay open late. You need the restaurants to feed into the bars, that then feed into the late night pizza joints for your post-party munchies. It's almost like an ecosystem that has a symbiotic relationship all to itself.