Transit Fantasies

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

What? No connection between Granville and Vancouver City Centre?

Perhaps he meant for it to remain as it is now> a short walk away. Otherwise, I'd say it looks very comprehensive, although the tunnel straight under Burrard Inlet seems unfeasible, given the depth there.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by MistyMountain

Not sure if this ever got posted here but I made this map of what rapid transit in Vancouver could look like by 2050 and posted it on r/Vancouver last summer. Here's the map and here's the link to the thread if you want to read more about how I budgeted it. Full resolution here.

I want to like it ... but...

1) There's no way we're going to have that much WCE style on-ground rail - you're better off envisioning any extensions as limited stop express bus routes (then you can also add in a few existing bus routes).

2) West Van isn't going to have that much rapid transit by 2050. Hell we'll be lucky if they agree to extend the RapidBus beyond Park Royal by then.

3) Richmond also isn't going to have the Canada Line extended by 2050 (thanks to their short-sighed thinking). There is a possibility of on-ground rail.

4) You have to remember that Skytrain is limited to a 6% grade - there are quite a few spots you have drawn where it's more than that. You've also drawn a number of sections quite close together, which is only going to cannibalize ridership (their ideal is to have bus routes a 10 min / 800m walk apart - Skytrain would have to be even further apart).

5) Millennium Line looping on itself is scary. A problem anywhere on the line will shut down a hell of a lot of service.


Now that I've been mean, your proposed Hastings Line looks interesting. I'll have to trace that out in google maps.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I want to like it ... but...

1) There's no way we're going to have that much WCE style on-ground rail - you're better off envisioning any extensions as limited stop express bus routes (then you can also add in a few existing bus routes).

2) West Van isn't going to have that much rapid transit by 2050. Hell we'll be lucky if they agree to extend the RapidBus beyond Park Royal by then.

3) Richmond also isn't going to have the Canada Line extended by 2050 (thanks to their short-sighed thinking). There is a possibility of on-ground rail.

4) You have to remember that Skytrain is limited to a 6% grade - there are quite a few spots you have drawn where it's more than that. You've also drawn a number of sections quite close together, which is only going to cannibalize ridership (their ideal is to have bus routes a 10 min / 800m walk apart - Skytrain would have to be even further apart).

5) Millennium Line looping on itself is scary. A problem anywhere on the line will shut down a hell of a lot of service.


Now that I've been mean, your proposed Hastings Line looks interesting. I'll have to trace that out in google maps.

Canada Line's spurs need to be double-tracked eventually just due to capacity concerns. May as well extend to Steveston on the way.

Expo having a problem does the same thing with the service.

Not sure WTH the Hastings Line is doing though.

In most cases, you would parallel the BC regional highway network roughly (1A, 7A, etc.)- but 7A goes off into Barnet Hwy and Burnaby Mtn here. Also, WCE also already does the role of rapid connector from Coquitlam to Vancouver.

The spur down south to Greystone seems a bit silly- assuming it's even possible, I'm not sure it's even very useful for commuters. Not to mention the entire area is the exact opposite of TOD-friendly.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Canada Line's spurs need to be double-tracked eventually just due to capacity concerns. May as well extend to Steveston on the way.

Expo having a problem does the same thing with the service.

Not sure WTH the Hastings Line is doing though.

In most cases, you would parallel the BC regional highway network roughly (1A, 7A, etc.)- but 7A goes off into Barnet Hwy and Burnaby Mtn here. Also, WCE also already does the role of rapid connector from Coquitlam to Vancouver.

The spur down south to Greystone seems a bit silly- assuming it's even possible, I'm not sure it's even very useful for commuters. Not to mention the entire area is the exact opposite of TOD-friendly.

Is there enough demand to have Skytrain extend to Steveston? If anything demand is on the other side of Richmond (towards the tunnel). Anyway Richmond still has areas that could be used for separated on-ground rail instead (kind of like the Arbutus greenway).

That's kind of my point - do we want a problem on the Millennium Line causing havoc like it does on the Expo Line? It would make more sense to have a separate line from the North Shore down Willingdon to Metrotown and across to UBC.

For Hastings: I like the idea of having it drop from Hastings down towards Stadium Station and then have it travel over to Denman and Davie - it would miss the Expo Line tunnel and only have to deal with the Canada Line tunnel in one spot, while still proving some coverage for the West End. While I agree with you about the alignment at the other end, connecting it to the Millennium Line somewhere between Holden and Production Way stations is worth looking into. Otherwise I'd just end it at Kootenay Loop (where people can transfer to the Willingdon line).

[cganuelas1995]

I believe the Canada Lines natural southern terminus is ultimately Tsawwassen Ferry Terminal, but more logically it would be Tsawwassen Mills first, with the 620 being truncated to a shuttle bus. I envision the extension going along No. 3, hitting Blundell, Francis (perhaps put a rough platform there so you can build an infill station there), Williams, then along Steveston Highway with stations at the Buddhist temple/country club (future station with platform roughed in for later construction if desired), Ironwood, and then crossing the river somehow to get to a station at Trenant Park/Ladner Centre (perhaps Ladner Exchange will be moved there as well as it would make sense to have a transport hub in the middle of the town), and then Tsawwassen Mills, with a double tail track for a future extension to the ferries.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Assuming of course that it even gets across the Fraser - Delta's got even less combined ridership than Steveston. May have to build a bus loop at Ironwood Plaza and call it a day.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Is there enough demand to have Skytrain extend to Steveston? If anything demand is on the other side of Richmond (towards the tunnel). Anyway Richmond still has areas that could be used for separated on-ground rail instead (kind of like the Arbutus greenway).

That's kind of my point - do we want a problem on the Millennium Line causing havoc like it does on the Expo Line? It would make more sense to have a separate line from the North Shore down Willingdon to Metrotown and across to UBC.

For Hastings: I like the idea of having it drop from Hastings down towards Stadium Station and then have it travel over to Denman and Davie - it would miss the Expo Line tunnel and only have to deal with the Canada Line tunnel in one spot, while still proving some coverage for the West End. While I agree with you about the alignment at the other end, connecting it to the Millennium Line somewhere between Holden and Production Way stations is worth looking into. Otherwise I'd just end it at Kootenay Loop (where people can transfer to the Willingdon line).

The Massey Tunnel? Not really.

The issue is that you need to transfer (one of the things the North Shore Crossing connector studies were trying to avoid), and the double-tracking is needed anyways.

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

I believe the Canada Lines natural southern terminus is ultimately Tsawwassen Ferry Terminal, but more logically it would be Tsawwassen Mills first, with the 620 being truncated to a shuttle bus. I envision the extension going along No. 3, hitting Blundell, Francis (perhaps put a rough platform there so you can build an infill station there), Williams, then along Steveston Highway with stations at the Buddhist temple/country club (future station with platform roughed in for later construction if desired), Ironwood, and then crossing the river somehow to get to a station at Trenant Park/Ladner Centre (perhaps Ladner Exchange will be moved there as well as it would make sense to have a transport hub in the middle of the town), and then Tsawwassen Mills, with a double tail track for a future extension to the ferries.

Skytrain scales poorly for very long distances. Its top speed is 80km/hr- LRT can go above 100 km/h (probably faster with the right drivetrains), and WCE can go up to 177 km/hr. Also, Skytrain tracks, if put on the ground, form an impenetrable 'wall' due to the 3rd electrified rail, requiring the entire thing to be elevated.

Realistically, I'm a big fan of tram-train as a WCE-style express system for this reason. The only issue is that you either need specialized cars (like https://railway-news.com/aeroliner30...great-britain/, or BART), or squeeze into conventional tram-trains if you want good capacity without having most people stand (not great for a long-distance train). So the trains are going to be more expensive.

[BaddieB]

Originally Posted by OhioGuy

Would a SkyTrain expansion along Arbutus and Hastings via a downtown subway under Burrard ever make sense, connecting to the Canada Line at Marine Drive, other SkyTrain lines at Burrard and Waterfront stations downtown, and the Millennium Line at Burquitlam (or Millennium & Expo lines at Lougheed Town Centre)? Downtown stations at Davie Street/St. Paul's Hospital, Robson, Burrard, Waterfront, and somewhere in Gastown?

Skytrain past Kensington on Hastings is not necessary. Stop building Skytrain in the forest.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

Skytrain past Kensington on Hastings is not necessary. Stop building Skytrain in the forest.

Maybe the plan is to deforest Burnaby Mtn?

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Skytrain scales poorly for very long distances. Its top speed is 80km/hr- LRT can go above 100 km/h (probably faster with the right drivetrains), and WCE can go up to 177 km/hr.

Sounds good on paper, but in reality you have to combine long-distance with proper station spacing. Haney

Mission–Port Haney averages ~79km/h but the stations are 25km apart.
Port Moody–Waterfront averages ~53km/h on ~22km of track.

The whole 69km line averages 55km/h when you account for all the stops and if you only count stations in Metro Vancouver, it averages 47 km/h.

Compare that to:
The Expo Line:
40 minute ride over 28.5km
Averages ~43km/h
Makes 19 stops

The M-Line:
36 minute ride over 25.5 km
Averages 43km/h
Makes 16 stops

The Surrey-Langley Extension:
22 minute ride (projected) over 16km
Averages 44km/h
Makes 8 stops

Regular trains take time to get up to speed and decelerate... and one of the key advantages of SkyTrain is its acceleration profile.

Also, Skytrain tracks, if put on the ground, form an impenetrable 'wall' due to the 3rd electrified rail, requiring the entire thing to be elevated.

I don't disagree. It's only suitable to be ground-running along certain corridors... much like Highways. The YVR section is a good example.

Realistically, I'm a big fan of tram-train as a WCE-style express system for this reason. The only issue is that you either need specialized cars (like https://railway-news.com/aeroliner30...great-britain/, or BART), or squeeze into conventional tram-trains if you want good capacity without having most people stand (not great for a long-distance train). So the trains are going to be more expensive.

Oh, I'm a HUGE fan of Regional Rail, don't get me wrong... I just don't think there are many corridors in Vancouver that are suitable for it. Ideally, I'd LOVE to see the Arbutus corridor used for rail, but where would it terminate on the Vancouver side? There's nowhere for it to go.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Sounds good on paper, but in reality you have to combine long-distance with proper station spacing. Haney

Mission–Port Haney averages ~79km/h but the stations are 25km apart.
Port Moody–Waterfront averages ~53km/h on ~22km of track.

The whole 69km line averages 55km/h when you account for all the stops and if you only count stations in Metro Vancouver, it averages 47 km/h.

Compare that to:
The Expo Line:
40 minute ride over 28.5km
Averages ~43km/h
Makes 19 stops

The M-Line:
36 minute ride over 25.5 km
Averages 43km/h
Makes 16 stops

The Surrey-Langley Extension:
22 minute ride (projected) over 16km
Averages 44km/h
Makes 8 stops

Regular trains take time to get up to speed and decelerate... and one of the key advantages of SkyTrain is its acceleration profile.

I don't disagree. It's only suitable to be ground-running along certain corridors... much like Highways. The YVR section is a good example.


Oh, I'm a HUGE fan of Regional Rail, don't get me wrong... I just don't think there are many corridors in Vancouver that are suitable for it. Ideally, I'd LOVE to see the Arbutus corridor used for rail, but where would it terminate on the Vancouver side? There's nowhere for it to go.

Well, we could replace the WCE with tram-train for starters, and a few more stations on the way (eg. PNE and East Hastings).
Though you would have to make some kind of cut-and-cover beyond Commercial Drive, as there's not enough space for 2 tracks of tram-train (and probably only barely enough space for 1).

Arbutus is supposed to terminate at Waterfront- though for a regional rail system, it's probably smarter to have some underground station at Main St.- Science World- though you would have to travel across the street to get to and from the station, and unless the railway was made elevated past Cambie, a high-capacity system would cause problems for the Olympic Village residents.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Well, we could replace the WCE with tram-train for starters, and a few more stations on the way (eg. PNE and East Hastings).

Sadly that's pure fantasy - because we don't own the tracks. The rail company(s) do and we lease time to run a few trains a day, and even then they're regularly delayed due to freight pushing into our timeslots.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Sadly that's pure fantasy - because we don't own the tracks. The rail company(s) do and we lease time to run a few trains a day, and even then they're regularly delayed due to freight pushing into our timeslots.

I implied the creation of new tracks, which there should be space for on most of the tracks.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by fredinno

I implied the creation of new tracks, which there should be space for on most of the tracks.

Now all you need to do is convince the powers that be to build new tracks. They haven't been in a big hurry to do that... *sigh*

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Now all you need to do is convince the powers that be to build new tracks. They haven't been in a big hurry to do that... *sigh*

Considering express buses can still do a lot of what a regional rail network would do for far less, I'm not surprised.

[cganuelas1995]

Compass integration with Aquabus and False Creek Ferries

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Compass integration with Aquabus and False Creek Ferries

I haven't taken out of those in a while. I assume both have tap to pay on credit?

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I haven't taken out of those in a while. I assume both have tap to pay on credit?

Used to be cash but they started to take cards during Covid I believe.

[chowhou]

I've been thinking about potential blockers for the North Shore Skytrain since it's been pushed out to the horizon. It has however been unofficially conformed to be a Second Narrows crossing.

Is there even a viable Second Narrows bridge alignment though?

West of the Iron Workers' is a non-starter as long as Lynnterm and Viterra are operating. Between the Iron Workers' and the CN Rail Bridge is too tight. A Boundary Road alignment is blocked by the power lines. A Riverside Dr./Ingleton Ave/Gilmore Avealignment conflicts with the Seymour water mains and probably shouldn't/can't be right next to the Chemtrade chlorine plant. A Forester St./Carleton Ave. alignment is probably starting to get too far and expensive, and will conflict with the Parkland holding tanks.

Is there any reasonable alignment that isn't tunneled?

[Migrant_Coconut]

The consistent option in the studies appears to be either a bridge or tunnel somewhere along Orwell or Columbia Street.