Is Ottawa the City that Fun Forgot?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

They sure don't mind going to Jays games when they're there.

Indeed. Though if MLB exhibition games at the Big O featured the Red Sox and the Yankees (or even the Dodgers or the Cubs) would attendance be less, more or about the same? Honest question.

[JHikka]

I think that this thread is supposed to be about Ottawa.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Sure, but there's probably more value in Toronto looking outwardly to NYC and LA than looking towards Ottawa and Calgary, you know?
(...)
.

This made me wonder whether NYC or London or Paris became great cities by looking to replicate the other great cities of the world, or did they become great because they used their nation's economy, culture and identity as launching pads and vectors for their greatness?

Does the allure of a city like Paris lie in Parisians going gaga over someone like Billie Holiday, or rather elevating someone homegrown like Édith Piaf to the status of civic, national and even global icon?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I think that this thread is supposed to be about Ottawa.

You brought up Toronto....

[Truenorth00]

On the topic of Ottawa, I do think the "boringness" comes from its highly suburban nature. Hate me all you want, but I think think outside of a few square km in the core, this place is Mississauga on the Rideau.

And there is a lesson to be learned in my slight. Mississauga will never be as cool as Hamilton, simply because Hamilton is way more urban in character, even though it's an exurb of Toronto. Ottawa can't be its coolest self if it keeps running from urbanity. And no building a bunch of Lahey condos in the downtown core isn't urbanity.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

They're definitely and obviously trying harder.

But starting from oh-so-far behind.

I get that. But that genuinely seem to be thinking through what kind of city they want to have and what public spaces and the public realm should look like. Ottawa seems to be bumbling through.

[bartlebooth]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

On the topic of Ottawa, I do think the "boringness" comes from its highly suburban nature. Hate me all you want, but I think think outside of a few square km in the core, this place is Mississauga on the Rideau.

And there is a lesson to be learned in my slight. Mississauga will never be as cool as Hamilton, simply because Hamilton is way more urban in character, even though it's an exurb of Toronto. Ottawa can't be its coolest self if it keeps running from urbanity. And no building a bunch of Lahey condos in the downtown core isn't urbanity.

I guess it's how you define urbanity. Is it a formal/material definition? Something not material? I've been to LA several times and it is quite suburban in nature but much more dynamic, vibrant, and cool than Ottawa or anything I've experienced in the GTA including Toronto's core neighbourhoods.

I definitely agree with you that Ottawa can't be cool by running from urbanity but I don't know if urbanity is defined purely by row upon row of 6+ story buildings. Not sure if that's exactly what you meant so pre-apology if I misinterpreted, haha. That's also not to say I have a good definition of what urbanity means because I don't. I just think there are different ways to get there as I've experienced on my trips to other places. It's likely much more rooted in something cultural like kevinbottawa wrote about so all is not lost because Ottawa is mostly suburban (another thing I agree with).

[lrt's friend]

Ottawa's lack of urbanity is a reflection of its history. Ottawa was only a small city until World War II. It exploded in growth following the war when most wanted suburban/car oriented living. As a result, Ottawa is currently overwhelmingly suburban. The fact that we seem unable to pull off redevelopment of Lebreton Flats demonstrates our inability to make Ottawa more urban as well as some glaring amenities missing from downtown.

It should be no surprise that Calgary and Edmonton have even bigger issues when it comes to the lack of urban vibrancy when their explosion of growth came even later than Ottawa's.

It will take a monumental effort to turn what amounts to be a massive ship that is Ottawa to significantly improve its urbanity. Making downtown more accessible is critical without the need of a car, otherwise we will continue make our amenities mostly car oriented, and spread out throughout the suburban wasteland. Nothing shows this more than the current unlikelihood of moving our NHL arena downtown.

[thewave46]

I don't think urbanity itself is Ottawa's problem with respect to lack of fun. Suburbs don't make things easier but they aren't the problem themselves.

It's the character of the inhabitants. Contrast the city of San Francisco of the late 1960s versus it today. You're comparing free-spirit hippiedom to cashed up tech bro/upper class moneyed types - who's the more fun spirit?

The city proper hasn't changed much since then. The people have. San Francisco earned its 'fun' in the past. Then the money moved in and displaced the people who built that, chasing the ideal but killing it in the process.

Fun rarely comes from the top. It comes from the bottom, the young, the riffraff. Ottawa can't not be top down, because government (especially a federal one) is always a top-down thing. Gentrification makes for nice, orderly, safe places. It doesn't make the punk-rock scene of New York in the '70s. No amount of urbanity will change it, unless that urbanity is cheap and lures in kids with ideas.

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I don't think urbanity itself is Ottawa's problem with respect to lack of fun. Suburbs don't make things easier but they aren't the problem themselves.

It's the character of the inhabitants. Contrast the city of San Francisco of the late 1960s versus it today. You're comparing free-spirit hippiedom to cashed up tech bro/upper class moneyed types - who's the more fun spirit?

The city proper hasn't changed much since then. The people have. San Francisco earned its 'fun' in the past. Then the money moved in and displaced the people who built that, chasing the ideal but killing it in the process.

Fun rarely comes from the top. It comes from the bottom, the young, the riffraff. Ottawa can't not be top down, because government (especially a federal one) is always a top-down thing. Gentrification makes for nice, orderly, safe places. It doesn't make the punk-rock scene of New York in the '70s. No amount of urbanity will change it, unless that urbanity is cheap and lures in kids with ideas.

Perfect summary of Ottawa. Honda Civics rule supreme, Supertramp/CHEZ still has a following, and people consider Golden Palace to be great food.

There really isn't a real underbelly in Ottawa. High tech and government workers tend not to be instigators of a revolution from within.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by Proof Sheet

people consider Golden Palace to be great food.

If you don't think GP egg rolls are delicious then your opinion means nothing to me.

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

If you don't think GP egg rolls are delicious then your opinion means nothing to me.

Well then I mean nothing to you.

Do you want my opinions on CJOH news

[AuxTown]

First off, GP egg rolls are the bomb. Those that disagree have eaten one too many kale chips IMO.

I honestly think Ottawa has a different definition of fun than other cities. People love running, hiking, cycling more than your average population. Ottawans aren't flashy and some of wealthiest drive Volvos or Subarus instead of Ferraris or G wagons. We take a weekend camping or at the cottage any day over a crowded club or fancy restaurant. We party hard for 2 weeks a year at Bluesfest then move into our homes to listen to our favourite bands on audiophile speaker setups. Our saving grace is the large university student population (150000+ students between all the college/universities). They certainly know how to party....but can't/won't afford to do anything too extreme. Anyway, off to go cut the grass and enjoy the birds singing in my backyard....my sad old man idea of fun

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by AuxTown

I honestly think Ottawa has a different definition of fun than other cities. People love running, hiking, cycling more than your average population. Ottawans aren't flashy and some of wealthiest drive Volvos or Subarus instead of Ferraris or G wagons. We take a weekend camping or at the cottage any day over a crowded club or fancy restaurant. We party hard for 2 weeks a year at Bluesfest then move into our homes to listen to our favourite bands on audiophile speaker setups. Our saving grace is the large university student population (150000+ students between all the college/universities). They certainly know how to party....but can't/won't afford to do anything too extreme. Anyway, off to go cut the grass and enjoy the birds singing in my backyard....my sad old man idea of fun

Cities should be what their residents want them to be.

Ottawa isn't Las Vegas. It would be weird if it tried to be that as it would be against the natural instinct of the place.

Can Ottawa be better? Sure. They've been making strides in that direction for awhile now. Yes, there's hiccups on the way. No, I doubt it'll ever be Mecca for those looking for Rio-style fun, or even French Quarter New Orleans. That's too sweaty, too dirty, too raw a version of fun for Ottawa.

The weirdest cities in the world are cities that try to be something other than what they really are.

[Richard Eade]

Finally, a topic that I can sink my teeth into: I’ve tried the Golden Palace egg rolls, and they are fine. They are better, in my opinion, than the disappointing Charlie Chan egg rolls that I went out to the east-end to sample. So far, the best egg rolls that I have found are from the Welcome Back, in Bell’s Corners. Give them, and any other dishes on their menu, a try, next time that you are out in the west-end. You might find a new favorite.

Meanwhile, back to our regularly scheduled bickering:

The city of Ottawa is not all that boring. We have (remembering back to non-CoViD-19 times) many cultural, music, and neighbourhood festivals to enjoy; many ‘local’ fairs; a several-week-long Winterlude; and a beautiful spring festival, celebrating tulips. There are many events that take place throughout the year that draw huge crowds. Have any of you ever been to the Rib-Fest, Buskerfest, or even Canada Day celebrations?

There almost always seems to be something happening in this city. If it is not a display of Ferrari prowess, racing up and down Carling; or a Pride Parade, winding through the core; then it might involve visiting buildings that you would normally not have access to.

Ottawa really needs to stop belittling itself by comparing its offerings to cities that are more than double its size.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I don't think urbanity itself is Ottawa's problem with respect to lack of fun. Suburbs don't make things easier but they aren't the problem themselves.

Urbanism lends itself to better public spaces. And in turn better use of public spaces.

Suburbanites don't insist on town squares being built. Because they won't use them outside some official event where they drive to them.

Consider old towns in Europe or new cities in Asia? What do they all have in common? An appreciation of the public realm and most of all decent public spaces where the city actually lives. Pedestrian streets for shopping. Squares with restaurants on the edges that have patio tables out front. Night markets full of goodies.

Lively cities don't need a special annual event to close roads. They have areas where they never built allowed cars to begin with. And they have areas where they go out of their way to enable public life.

What I would do:

1) Murray-Dalhousie-Sussex-Rideau. I would pedestrianize the entire area inside that box. Not even parking. Traffic only those streets. Nothing inside the box.

2) Tax breaks for anybody that wants to open a restaurant on Sparks.

3) Car free weekends on Bank and Elgin in the core, on weekends.

4) Free transit on weekends or some kind of really reduced fare.

5) Mandate the development of town squares in malls that get redeveloped so that they have a space to have Farmers markets, neighbourhood concerts, etc

6) Develop more public amenities on the canal. Why isn't there something like Tavern on the Hill along the canal? I get the desire to be green and all. But no reason the whole canal has to be that way.

7) Heck, start something under the bridges downtown. Restaurants, bars, music stands. Something. So they aren't filled with homeless taking shelter.

Ottawa can't be Toronto or Montreal. But it can be better than it is now. And I'm a firm believer that when you give the public decent public spaces, they use them.

[AuxTown]

I forgot to mention an amazing success in our city when it comes to “fun”, Landsdowne. I know there are questions about finances, public money, and retail uses but, in nice weather or game day, there is no place better than Landsdowne. I was there on a rare warm November day last fall and, despite the pandemic, it felt amazingly urban and vibrant. More of that please!

[Urbanarchit]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Urbanism lends itself to better public spaces. And in turn better use of public spaces.

Suburbanites don't insist on town squares being built. Because they won't use them outside some official event where they drive to them.

This is an interesting point. Suburban living is about retreating into one's private home with your backyards and not interact with strangers or others in one's community. Essentially, escaping from social interaction. If you leave you'll probably get in a car, minimizing your contact with others, in order to go to work or the store. On the other hand, urban living is seeing the neighbourhood or city as an extension of your home, where you want to go out and do or see different things happening and interact with people in your area (see other regulars are a coffee shop or bar).

I've noticed a trend in new houses in Kitchissippi Ward where they build large garages in the front beside an entrance door, with the living room placed in the back of the house overlooking private backyards. Older houses often didn't have garages, but have living rooms with a large window in the front to look out on the street. It contributes to the "eyes on the street" behaviour Jane Jacobs wrote about. The living room in the rear makes people less connected to their street and neighbours, saying "I'm not interested in you - I'm looking inward".

The suburban behaviour though exists even in "urban" neighbourhoods in Ottawa, though I don't know if this is a growing trend. Do the people who move to West Wellington expect to live a suburban lifestyle but be able to go to a unique local business?

[Truenorth00]

This is why I say Ottawa is Mississauga on the Rideau. We build the city for suburbanites and then act surprised when suburbanites do suburban things and don't show up in the core. This isn't unique to Ottawa. It's an issue all over North America.

The thing is we know what makes cities lively and livable:

• Video Link

And I would argue that liveliness and livability often go together with attractiveness:

• Video Link

Anytime I bring this up though, I'll get the typical responses.

1) This isn't Europe. Cause apparently building quality public spaces is exclusive to thousand year old cities?

2) What about Vegas? You mean the place with huge public spaces that have loud sounds and flashing lights and huge water fountains that attract lots of tourists. The public doesn't care if public spaces are garish. Just providing the space makes a huge difference.

There isn't some huge secret to make areas livelier. Take away the cars, put in public spaces and people flood in. How great was the Market was last year with all the patios? I would think this would have taught people something. If they aren't willing to completely pedestrianize the market, at least turn those streets into Woonerfs. And if we can't get cars off Bank and Elgin all week, at least do it in weekends. The key to making the city lively is getting those suburbanites out of their homes and cars. At least on weekends.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Urbanism lends itself to better public spaces. And in turn better use of public spaces.

Suburbanites don't insist on town squares being built. Because they won't use them outside some official event where they drive to them.

Consider old towns in Europe or new cities in Asia? What do they all have in common? An appreciation of the public realm and most of all decent public spaces where the city actually lives. Pedestrian streets for shopping. Squares with restaurants on the edges that have patio tables out front. Night markets full of goodies.

Lively cities don't need a special annual event to close roads. They have areas where they never built allowed cars to begin with. And they have areas where they go out of their way to enable public life.

What I would do:

1) Murray-Dalhousie-Sussex-Rideau. I would pedestrianize the entire area inside that box. Not even parking. Traffic only those streets. Nothing inside the box.

2) Tax breaks for anybody that wants to open a restaurant on Sparks.

3) Car free weekends on Bank and Elgin in the core, on weekends.

4) Free transit on weekends or some kind of really reduced fare.

5) Mandate the development of town squares in malls that get redeveloped so that they have a space to have Farmers markets, neighbourhood concerts, etc

6) Develop more public amenities on the canal. Why isn't there something like Tavern on the Hill along the canal? I get the desire to be green and all. But no reason the whole canal has to be that way.

7) Heck, start something under the bridges downtown. Restaurants, bars, music stands. Something. So they aren't filled with homeless taking shelter.

Ottawa can't be Toronto or Montreal. But it can be better than it is now. And I'm a firm believer that when you give the public decent public spaces, they use them.

I don’t think I disagree with a single one of these suggestions. And several of them would be very easy to do. It would be nice if the City had a group dedicated to trying these sorts of ideas on a pilot basis.