Discussion about the Halifax subforum

[mleblanc]

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

So did Joe report me & Mr. Leblanc?

Huh, you're right. I guess calling out poor development breaks the rules.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by mleblanc

Huh, you're right. I guess calling out poor development breaks the rules.

This tread has turned into an embarrassment. You can have an opinion on developments but that doesn't mean you have to be an a-hole about it.

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

This tread has turned into an embarrassment. You can have an opinion on developments but that doesn't mean you have to be an a-hole about it.

Just wondering... Are you referring to the developer, his critics, or the conversation in general?

[mleblanc]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

This tread has turned into an embarrassment. You can have an opinion on developments but that doesn't mean you have to be an a-hole about it.

I'm sorry, but in what way am I being an "a-hole" about it?

I respect the folks that are investing money into this city, but I'm allowed to criticize what I personally find to be of poor design. The renderings show an awkward building that looks like they sent an architect the viewplanes, and said "Fit whatever you can into this"

There is not many developments I find issues with in Halifax - you can look back through my posts and see this. This location is in a prime spot, and offers nothing besides density to the area. Just because we have outdated & silly planning laws in Halifax, does not mean we have to accept poorly designed developments.

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by HRMjoe

Remind me what developments of yours I should study to make sure the next building is more to your liking?

We shouldn’t be a-holes or throw personal attacks...

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by JONOJOE

I agree bad color choice, and texture, but Keith it's important to note, with precast there are several textures, colors, and finishes which can be used, there are several precast buildings in town which look different, look at the W or barrington, or the paramount on south park.. even the martello has precast and all three buildings look different then the ones you've named.. regardless of this, precast remains undoubtedly the highest quality finish product around far superior to brick.. as far as looks go, I also think it's a much nicer product to work with and look at.. but hey.. everyone has their preferences..

p.s i know not alot of people like the fake stone product, but I used it a few years ago when i built the Harwick (behind the oxford theatre) and I'v recieved nothing but praise.. I think it looks great myself aswell.. and i think that goes to show how the exterior clading has to work with the design and complement the setting of the building..

Who knew there are two Joe Metleges? This one seemed much more receptive to comments and critique. Wonder what happened to him...

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

Just wondering... Are you referring to the developer, his critics, or the conversation in general?

The critics, and how the conversation has evolved.

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

The critics, and how the conversation has evolved.

Did me & Leblanc go a step too far by bringing the developer’s management practices into the conversation? Perhaps. But I think the response of the developer “what development of yours” is responsible for eliciting such harsh comments because it delegitimises the critique and devalues the individuals voicing their concern.

Furthermore, when moderation turns a blind eye to this behaviour while censoring equally rude comments from a less privileged commentator, it makes me scratch my head.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

Did me & Leblanc go a step too far by bringing the developer’s management practices into the conversation? Perhaps. But I think the response of the developer “what development of yours” is responsible for eliciting such harsh comments because it delegitimises the critique and devalues the individuals voicing their concern.

Furthermore, when moderation turns a blind eye to this behaviour while censoring equally rude comments from a less privileged commentator, it makes me scratch my head.

Exactly.

[someone123]

Some posts from the Trinity thread were relocated here.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

Some posts from the Trinity thread were relocated here.

So as a mod, what is your take on the above moved posts?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

Did me & Leblanc go a step too far by bringing the developer’s management practices into the conversation? Perhaps. But I think the response of the developer “what development of yours” is responsible for eliciting such harsh comments because it delegitimises the critique and devalues the individuals voicing their concern.

I agree. Let's try to focus on ideas or the subject matter like developments or the merits of planning practices rather than personalities, motives, or qualifications of participants in the discussion.

I deleted those 2 earlier posts. It's always a balancing act to decide what is over the line and part of that depends on timing for the moderators and what happens with the discussion (e.g. how many replies are there? how much effort went into the post and how much of it is objectionable?). Anybody can private message a moderator or use the report feature on the forum if they have a concern about something, although the reality is we're not on here 24/7 so sometimes we miss things or by the time we see them conversation has moved on and it's better to just forget about it.

Another aspect is that if developers, politicians, etc. who post on here become lightning rods for criticism then they won't bother participating. I think it would be much more interesting to have exchanges with a wider variety of participants. This doesn't mean that people like that get special treatment but if the "temperature" on here stays lower we're likely to have more interesting discussion in the long run. The ideal outcome here from my perspective is that you guys and Joe will all feel comfortable posting even if you disagree.

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by someone123

Another aspect is that if developers, politicians, etc. who post on here become lightning rods for criticism then they won't bother participating. I think it would be much more interesting to have exchanges with a wider variety of participants. This doesn't mean that people like that get special treatment but if the "temperature" on here stays lower we're likely to have more interesting discussion in the long run. The ideal outcome here from my perspective is that you guys and Joe will all feel comfortable posting even if you disagree.

Is it even possible for censorship to keep the temperature cool without giving a developer or politician some form of special treatment? The statement seems somewhat contradictory. I would agree that individual forum users being polite to the developer would make them more likely to come back, but artificially cooling the conversation with the goal of appeasing the developer is the definition of special treatment. If the person deleting criticism claims it’s unrealistic to blame the developer, it gives off the impression of special treatment since a bias towards the developer has been disclosed to the whole forum.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Thanks for weighing in on this. I think it helps, when posts are deleted and/or moved, to get the moderator's rationale for why the changes were made. It helps us regular posters understand what was wrong and hopefully we can take it to the table in future discussions.

Looking back on the thread for the sake of analysis, it appears that everything started to go wrong when some criticism was offered on the renderings that were posted and it spiralled a little from there.

If I may add my opinion on what happened, it appears that the criticism was a little direct, and that the developer, apparently expecting praise and positive comments, was taken aback and took the comments personally. The thread went downhill when he decided to respond with sarcastic and belittling comments, and a couple of the responses to his sarcasm crossed the line a little (IMHO), and were removed.

I think it would be great if there could be positive discussions involving developers, but I also think it's a big ask. Internet forums (or any form of social media these days) can be contentious at times, and any developer would have to put on his 'big boy pants' and be prepared to handle some negative comments to advance the discussion. Offering good rational explanations and even accepting criticism as being positive would help build up a trust and a mutual respect between regular board members and developers that could lead to mutually beneficial discussions. For this to really work, though, the developer would have to understand that he is accepting a role similar to a leader or a mentor, and as such would have to put his ego and personal interests in his back pocket, and lead the discussion in a positive way, while treating negative comments with respect and diplomacy. Expecting 'regular posters' to agree with everything and respond with praise and adulation would be unreasonable, unless of course the praise and adulation is earned by well-thought-out and educated responses (which is possible, but could be time consuming and would take a certain commitment).

However, I do remain doubtful that this can actually happen, as we've all seen on this forum in the past, when city councillors decide to become involved in the discussions - a lot of the exchanges are good, but most often it devolves into something less productive, if you know what I mean... councillors don't show up so much anymore.

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Thanks for weighing in on this. I think it helps, when posts are deleted and/or moved, to get the moderator's rationale for why the changes were made. It helps us regular posters understand what was wrong and hopefully we can take it to the table in future discussions.

Looking back on the thread for the sake of analysis, it appears that everything started to go wrong when some criticism was offered on the renderings that were posted and it spiralled a little from there.

If I may add my opinion on what happened, it appears that the criticism was a little direct, and that the developer, apparently expecting praise and positive comments, was taken aback and took the comments personally. The thread went downhill when he decided to respond with sarcastic and belittling comments, and a couple of the responses to his sarcasm crossed the line a little (IMHO), and were removed.

I think it would be great if there could be positive discussions involving developers, but I also think it's a big ask. Internet forums (or any form of social media these days) can be contentious at times, and any developer would have to put on his 'big boy pants' and be prepared to handle some negative comments to advance the discussion. Offering good rational explanations and even accepting criticism as being positive would help build up a trust and a mutual respect between regular board members and developers that could lead to mutually beneficial discussions. For this to really work, though, the developer would have to understand that he is accepting a role similar to a leader or a mentor, and as such would have to put his ego and personal interests in his back pocket, and lead the discussion in a positive way, while treating negative comments with respect and diplomacy. Expecting 'regular posters' to agree with everything and respond with praise and adulation would be unreasonable, unless of course the praise and adulation is earned by well-thought-out and educated responses (which is possible, but could be time consuming and would take a certain commitment).

However, I do remain doubtful that this can actually happen, as we've all seen on this forum in the past, when city councillors decide to become involved in the discussions - a lot of the exchanges are good, but most often it devolves into something less productive, if you know what I mean... councillors don't show up so much anymore.

Agreed, agreed, and absolutely agreed.

It’s not easy for any high-profile individual to engage with the public in a normal way.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

Is it even possible for censorship to keep the temperature cool without giving a developer or politician some form of special treatment? The statement seems somewhat contradictory. I would agree that individual forum users being polite to the developer would make them more likely to come back, but artificially cooling the conversation with the goal of appeasing the developer is the definition of special treatment. If the person deleting criticism claims it’s unrealistic to blame the developer, it gives off the impression of special treatment since a bias towards the developer has been disclosed to the whole forum.

I agree with this, and as such don't feel it's the job of the moderator to be selective as to who gets special treatment and who doesn't.

It would be different if the board owner, or a moderator, invited developers and politicians to specifically participate in a discussion with the understanding that things would be kept civil, etc., in order to create a good discussion. I would view that in the same sense as setting up a physical presentation that included a discussion forum afterwards, where a certain standard of conduct would be assumed/required.

However, if a developer comes to this forum of his/her own volition, and then posts sarcastic/flippant responses to any comment that is not complimentary, then IMHO he/she should get the same treatment that an average board member would get.

That said, in this case I don't think it was that bad. The developer surprised me with his reaction to criticism - I had expected a much higher level of communication from somebody who has the level of knowledge and capability to make a large development happen - but I don't think he was over the line. Just kinda flippant with his remarks, which understandably put a sour taste in the mouth of several board members (including myself). A couple of comments which followed got a little more personal, and someone123 rightfully deleted them.

As I let this one percolate a little, it occurs to me that it's not uncommon for members of a forum/messageboard such as this to casually comment about or criticize developments that are happening around the city (after all discussion of development is basically why this board exists). I've done it a lot, as I often have an emotional or intellectual response to what I'm seeing and reading. If I don't like it, I usually have no problem in saying so. If others do like it, then they usually seem to have no problem in disagreeing with me - and discussion often ensues. This is great, as it's interesting and oftentimes educational (for me, anyway). After all, it's a discussion board, so we discuss (and sometimes argue or debate).

However, if I were to put myself into the shoes of somebody who has put his heart and soul (and money) into the project, it probably feels more like an attack than an interesting point of discussion, and I realize that it would be difficult to not become a little defensive...

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

However, if a developer comes to this forum of his/her own volition, and then posts sarcastic/flippant responses to any comment that is not complimentary, then IMHO he/she should get the same treatment that an average board member would get.

I'm 100% with you there.

That said, in this case I don't think it was that bad...I don't think he was over the line. Just kinda flippant with his remarks

I can't agree. It was over the line, beyond "flippant". I think HRMjoe's comment "Remind me what developments of yours I should study to make sure the next building is more to your liking?" was a truly infantile and unwarranted personal shot, approximately equivalent to "you're not a developer so you don't know shit". Pretty revealing of character, though, so maybe an informative insight.

However, if I were to put myself into the shoes of somebody who has put his heart and soul (and money) into the project, it probably feels more like an attack than an interesting point of discussion, and I realize that it would be difficult to not become a little defensive...

Possibly, but that doesn't make the reaction okay. Defensiveness which degenerates into ad hominem attacks is never okay, but, again, says more about the speaker than the target. And it doesn't say anything complimentary.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

I'm 100% with you there.



I can't agree. It was over the line, beyond "flippant". I think HRMjoe's comment "Remind me what developments of yours I should study to make sure the next building is more to your liking?" was a truly infantile and unwarranted personal shot, approximately equivalent to "you're not a developer so you don't know shit". Pretty revealing of character, though, so maybe an informative insight.



Possibly, but that doesn't make the reaction okay. Defensiveness which degenerates into ad hominem attacks is never okay, but, again, says more about the speaker than the target. And it doesn't say anything complimentary.

I really can't argue against any of your points. I was trying my hardest to be as generous as I could be in giving the benefit of the doubt, and trying to somehow see it through the eyes of somebody who obviously doesn't think in the same way as I do (as futile an exercise as that is).

But... yeah, I have to agree with what you are saying here.

[mleblanc]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Possibly, but that doesn't make the reaction okay. Defensiveness which degenerates into ad hominem attacks is never okay, but, again, says more about the speaker than the target. And it doesn't say anything complimentary.

I can definitely agree on this one. That was my mistake - the keyboard confidence certainly got the best of me, and it went over the top.

I love hearing the opinions of council and developers on this forum, it creates a great dialogue. However, it goes both ways - if they blatantly reject all constructive criticism on something they represent, it's natural that they might face even further criticism. The correct response to HRMJoe would have been for me that it's true, I'm not a developer. But I'm allowed to share my 2 cents on your development without being belittled.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by mleblanc

The correct response to HRMJoe would have been for me that it's true, I'm not a developer. But I'm allowed to share my 2 cents on your development without being belittled.

Two things come to mind. First, I wasn't even talking about your response, but good on you for acknowledging that. You're the bigger person.

Second, I think what irks me most about the "you're not a developer" attitude is that it's not only condescending and needlessly rude, but, really, ignorant (in the truest sense of the word) and, ultimately, irrelevant. All of us in the community have to see and live with the built legacies of developers, typically for many decades or generations, sometimes for centuries. Our opinions should be thought of as equally relevant. And what responsible, serious developer wouldn't want to know residents' opinions?