Regional and Intercity Bus\Rail Transportation

[Acajack]

When I was younger and living in Ontario it always felt that GO (Government of Ontario) Transit was an imposture.

Sure, I knew the demographics and all even then, but it still felt like "the GTA = Ontario". And that the rest of the province didn't matter.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I have a difficult time imagining that places like Kemptville, Casselman, and Arnprior have the demand for intercity bus services to-and-from Ottawa on the same level as GO. OC Transpo already slugs buses around Kanata, Barrhaven, and Orleans.

Not the same level as GO, but those places have significant numbers of commuters. I don’t see why an Arnprior-CTC-Terry Fox-Downtown route wouldn’t have good ridership. Or a Kemptville-Fallowfield/Amazon-Downtown route. It would take the pressure off OC Transport to run these 30km long express routes.

[lrt's friend]

Regional transit service should be about serving the public where there is reasonable potential ridership. This should not be about punishing people for their choices of housing location. Those are very complicated choices. I have a friend who does not drive and had to get to Cornwall periodically to see a brother and sister. Are we aiming to punish people like this too? I have friends who chose to live in Casselman because one had to commute to Cornwall and the other to Ottawa. Was this a poor choice?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

Montreal- Peterborough, for instance. Not sure what the passenger numbers would be for that, but I think the general idea is train to a bus which serves smaller places or those where the train doesn’t stop. Of course you would need operating bus routes for that to work.

But that isn’t faster or cheaper than taking a bus and doing a bus-to-bus transfer. I am sure there are eccentric people who will do that, but it will not be the approach most users would take.

Unless Via and Greyhound embark on an interlining or code sharing initiative to encourage such transfers I don’t see them happening organically. The two modes generally have a different clientele.

[acottawa]

Most people who live in rural areas either have a car or have some alternative arrangements.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

But that isn’t faster or cheaper than taking a bus and doing a bus-to-bus transfer. I am sure there are eccentric people who will do that, but it will not be the approach most users would take.

Unless Via and Greyhound embark on an interlining or code sharing initiative to encourage such transfers I don’t see them happening organically. The two modes generally have a different clientele.

I've definitely done train to bus in Toronto, when I had to go north of the city. The train was faster and more comfortable for the longer part of the trip, and the bus was most efficient for the last leg. Granted it was to a GO bus in my case, but to go somewhere like Aurora, it was definitely an advantage to have the bus station connected to the train. If places like Pembroke or Carleton Place had decent bus service, train to bus would be the best option to get there from somewhere like Montreal.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

I've definitely done train to bus in Toronto, when I had to go north of the city. The train was faster and more comfortable for the longer part of the trip, and the bus was most efficient for the last leg. Granted it was to a GO bus in my case, but to go somewhere like Aurora, it was definitely an advantage to have the bus station connected to the train. If places like Pembroke or Carleton Place had decent bus service, train to bus would be the best option to get there from somewhere like Montreal.

You could also describe that trip as taking the train to Toronto and then local public transit, which is basically what GO is not really the same thing as an intercity coach service. I am not sure someone going from Pembroke to Montreal would particularly benefit from a modal switch. Buying a through ticket on the bus would probably be cheaper than buying two separate tickets and it would be more likely the schedules would line up.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Regional transit service should be about serving the public where there is reasonable potential ridership. This should not be about punishing people for their choices of housing location. Those are very complicated choices. I have a friend who does not drive and had to get to Cornwall periodically to see a brother and sister. Are we aiming to punish people like this too? I have friends who chose to live in Casselman because one had to commute to Cornwall and the other to Ottawa. Was this a poor choice?

Explain why Ottawa ratepayers should be responsible for any of this.

Your friend's problems are not and should not be my concern.

As to people getting punished for housing choices, that's hardly the case. They are getting exactly what they paid for. The argument is against providing further subsidies. You buy a cheap house in the boonies, you should expect that the low price tag comes with compromises. One of which is less transit service since your village won't be able to support sustained service without substantial subsidies. It is patently absurd to ask folks who live with less space in urban areas and pay higher taxes to subsidize those with more space who live in the boonies. Their towns can contract with private services and they can pay full freight if they want service. Our obligation should not extend substantially beyond a bus bay at a terminus station. If we're generous, may be some fare integration.

I'm sick of this nonsense where the City of Ottawa is expected to solve problems and subsidize communities who don't pay taxes here.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

You could also describe that trip as taking the train to Toronto and then local public transit, which is basically what GO is not really the same thing as an intercity coach service. I am not sure someone going from Pembroke to Montreal would particularly benefit from a modal switch. Buying a through ticket on the bus would probably be cheaper than buying two separate tickets and it would be more likely the schedules would line up.

Well, I was going 50 km north of Toronto, so it's more of a commuter service than local transit. But the same principle would have applied if I was going 100 km north of Toronto, as buses can cover far more destinations than the train. GO goes as far as Kitchener and Niagara Falls, so it has largely replaced intercity buses in that area.

I really can't say how many people would make the same type of transfer here, but it would largely depend on how good the bus service is, and whether the train is faster and more convenient. Looking forward to a future with better train service and ideally some restored bus routes, it seems to make sense to create the link when we have the chance.

[Truenorth00]

The context is very different. GO covers a massive region and has tons of ridership. The communities it serves are large too. The "town" of Aurora has 55000 residents. That one town is on par with all of Lanark County. And that bus route has more stops than Aurora on it.

Moreover, GO itself is transitioning to exactly the the type of model I'm suggesting, as they implement All Day Two Way and Regional Express services. There will be far fewer buses in to the core and a lot more integration at the stations. GO bus service will increasingly focus on cross town trips which can't be done by rail. A big part of why GO used to offer buses to the core was poor regional service and fare integration. As they address that, bus services will be modified.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The context is very different. GO covers a massive region and has tons of ridership. The communities it serves are large too. The "town" of Aurora has 55000 residents. That one town is on par with all of Lanark County. And that bus route has more stops than Aurora on it.

Moreover, GO itself is transitioning to exactly the the type of model I'm suggesting, as they implement All Day Two Way and Regional Express services. There will be far fewer buses in to the core and a lot more integration at the stations. GO bus service will increasingly focus on cross town trips which can't be done by rail. A big part of why GO used to offer buses to the core was poor regional service and fare integration. As they address that, bus services will be modified.

Your description of the changes at GO are a bit misleading. Yes, there will be fewer buses to the core, but that's because there will be a lot more trains to the core. More capacity overall.

Yes, Toronto is bigger and can support far more service. But GO has been around since the 60s when the Toronto metro area was just over 2 million. It seems shortsighted to me to not plan for commuter service here at a time when we are making big investments in transit.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

But it won't be. Which is why we're talking about this. Best case scenario is that they pitch in a fraction of the cost.

If it won't be paid for by the province, then it won't happen. Nowhere did I say that it should even partially be paid for by the city.

We're a metro of 1.3 million. I don't buy the excuse that folks need to move 50 km to be able to afford shelter.

The population of the city is irrelevant; it is the cost of housing that matters. According to this article, as of April 2020, Ottawa had the third highest average house price in Canada at $479,000. It also has highest growth rate of +15.4% and thus is pulling away from the pack and towards the leaders. From what I have seen (which admittedly isn't proof), COVID has actually accelerated the growth in housing prices here over the past year. The only good news is Ottawa's rental vacancy rate has doubled over the past year, but I suspect that is largely a result of many students living at home due to remote learning, and once post secondary, in person learning resumes in the fall, the vacancy rate will fall again.

They may need to move that far too buy the type of real estate they desire.

I am sure there are many reasons why people choose to live where they do.

That is a whole different problem which I, as a Ottawa taxpayer see no need to subsidize.

That is a strawman argument. No one is saying that the city should subsidize them.

Incidentally, also why I don't have much sympathy if they end up stuck in traffic for an hour or two.

LOL. No one was asking you to.

Put in terminus bus terminals at Bayshore, Trim and Leitrim. That should be enough to cover every major approach to the city.

About 50% of transit fare is subsidized by the city, so not only do you want to subsidize their transit fares but you want the city to pay to build 3 bus suburban terminals?

No different than GO bus terminals at Yorkdale, York Mills and Scarborough Centre.

Did the city of Toronto pay for those bus terminals? Are they used as a transfer point for those commuting to/from downtown, or are they for commutes to more suburban workplaces?

Personally, I have no interest in subsidizing their commute either. But if we don't want their buses clogging up the core, ...

Do GO buses clog up Toronto's downtown core? Ottawa would have far fewer commuter buses than Toronto for a very long time.

... and we want to encourage a modal shift away from driving, then we have to have some kind of integration. Hopefully, the city can force fare integration on these companies and get them to include the full or discounted OC Transpo fare in their passenger fare.

Fare integration only works when the other service transports the majority of their passengers to their destination, and the minority of passengers who do transfer are mostly traveling in a contraflow direction, or otherwise not significantly affecting the capacity constraints of the urban transit system.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by phil235

Not the same level as GO, but those places have significant numbers of commuters. I don’t see why an Arnprior-CTC-Terry Fox-Downtown route wouldn’t have good ridership. Or a Kemptville-Fallowfield/Amazon-Downtown route. It would take the pressure off OC Transport to run these 30km long express routes.

Most places I have been to around the world towns like Kemptville, Arnprior, Rockland and Casselman would have all-day bus service to the nearby big city. Not every 10 minutes of course but perhaps a bus every hour or two. Usually the buses are motorcoach-style.

These are fairly comparable locales, with the big city often Ottawa-sized, similar population density on the outskirts and comparable levels of auto ownership.

I am not doing apples to oranges here.

It's what I've seen most everywhere.

[JHikka]

Any examples that you'd care to share with the group?

There are buses that go to some of these places (I used to see them on Slater but I can't remember where they went exactly) but they're usually only peak hours.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by phil235

Your description of the changes at GO are a bit misleading. Yes, there will be fewer buses to the core, but that's because there will be a lot more trains to the core. More capacity overall.

And we have a lot more trains to the core than we did 5 years ago. Ergo, no need to send buses to the core.

Originally Posted by phil235

But GO has been around since the 60s when the Toronto metro area was just over 2 million. It seems shortsighted to me to not plan for commuter service here at a time when we are making big investments in transit.

GO launched in 1967. The GTA+Hamilton was already over 3 million at that point. So no, we're not close. And nor is there any scenario where we'll be close to 3 million in our lifetimes. Heck, the province isn't even projecting all of Eastern Ontario to break 2.5M by 2046.

https://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/economy/dem...o%20grow,22.7%20per%20cent%20in%20Lanark.

[acottawa]

I have never been to a country where you can take a coach from a town of a few thousand to a city of a million.

Megabus type services connect fairly sizeable cities.

Many countries have some sort of rural transit that brings people to a nearby rail station or other form of local transit, but I have never seen coaches that bring you to a central city.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Most places I have been to around the world towns like Kemptville, Arnprior, Rockland and Casselman would have all-day bus service to the nearby big city. Not every 10 minutes of course but perhaps a bus every hour or two. Usually the buses are motorcoach-style.

These are fairly comparable locales, with the big city often Ottawa-sized, similar population density on the outskirts and comparable levels of auto ownership.

I am not doing apples to oranges here.

It's what I've seen most everywhere.

I saw that in Gothenburg, Sweden, a city significantly smaller than Ottawa.

It all depends on whether we want to continue total auto dependence beyond the most urban parts of Ottawa. I hate to say this but auto dependence in metro Ottawa is actually increasing.

This is a choice that we are making.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I saw that in Gothenburg, Sweden, a city significantly smaller than Ottawa.

Gothenburg's metro is 1M+.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

If it won't be paid for by the province, then it won't happen. Nowhere did I say that it should even partially be paid for by the city.

Cool. I guess we can close this thread then....

Originally Posted by roger1818

The population of the city is irrelevant; it is the cost of housing that matters. According to this article, as of April 2020, Ottawa had the third highest average house price in Canada at $479,000. It also has highest growth rate of +15.4% and thus is pulling away from the pack and towards the leaders. From what I have seen (which admittedly isn't proof), COVID has actually accelerated the growth in housing prices here over the past year. The only good news is Ottawa's rental vacancy rate has doubled over the past year, but I suspect that is largely a result of many students living at home due to remote learning, and once post secondary, in person learning resumes in the fall, the vacancy rate will fall again.

Cost of housing =\= cost of shelter.

We don't build transit to facilitate real estate ownership. And if we did, then what is being advocated for here, would literally result in transit induced sprawl.

Originally Posted by roger1818

That is a strawman argument. No one is saying that the city should subsidize them.

You have folks like lrt's friend who have zero issues complaining about problems that "somebody" should solve in a forum about the city of Ottawa. The implication is pretty clear.

Originally Posted by roger1818

About 50% of transit fare is subsidized by the city, so not only do you want to subsidize their transit fares but you want the city to pay to build 3 bus suburban terminals?

Last I checked 2-3 bus bays and shelters is hardly expensive. This is what Is argue they should get in exchange for staying out of the core.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Did the city of Toronto pay for those bus terminals?

No. But that's an irrelevant point, when the City of Toronto gets a whole different deal on transit funding than us. They aren't paying for the $20B LRT network that is being built or the $20B in subways that are also planned for them either.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Do GO buses clog up Toronto's downtown core? Ottawa would have far fewer commuter buses than Toronto for a very long time.

Looking at Toronto is really irrelevant here. Our road pattern and traffic congestion is different. And we don't have a highway running through our core. Where do you imagine this bus terminal going? Also, we just built a multi-billion dollar LRT to get rid of buses in the core. We're pushing Gatineau to do the same. And now we have to use the freed up space for ex-urban buses? Do you suburbanites hate the city that much?

Originally Posted by roger1818

Fare integration only works when the other service transports the majority of their passengers to their destination, and the minority of passengers who do transfer are mostly traveling in a contraflow direction, or otherwise not significantly affecting the capacity constraints of the urban transit system.

Define "works" in the context of this statement. Fare integration is done to encourage transit use and reduce user friction. It isn't necessarily required. But if we're going to force the ex-urban riders to terminate their bus rides at O-Train stations, integration helps with reducing friction. Especially since that transfer rate is going to approach 100% if there are forced transfers at the terminii.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Most places I have been to around the world towns like Kemptville, Arnprior, Rockland and Casselman would have all-day bus service to the nearby big city. Not every 10 minutes of course but perhaps a bus every hour or two. Usually the buses are motorcoach-style.

These are fairly comparable locales, with the big city often Ottawa-sized, similar population density on the outskirts and comparable levels of auto ownership.

I am not doing apples to oranges here.

It's what I've seen most everywhere.

As acottawa, usually these are services to the nearest rail station.

But also, those countries subsidize public transport far more than we do. In a situation, where the province is willing to pay all of the cost? Sure. But we're very far from that.