Regional and Intercity Bus\Rail Transportation

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Voyageur-Colonial did Montreal-Toronto, I am pretty sure.

Voyageur did, yes. I used the service a few times.

[Acajack]

I think the evolution of the Montreal-Toronto route went from Voyageur-Colonial to Greyhound to Megabus, no?

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think the evolution of the Montreal-Toronto route went from Voyageur-Colonial to Greyhound to Megabus, no?

According to Wikipedia, Greyhound purchased Voyageur-Colonial in 1998. Voyageur-Colonial primarily served Ottawa-Montreal-Kingston so it’s not clear if they served Toronto. I did travel between Toronto and Montreal via Voyageur buses, but that was after the Greyhound takeover. So it was essentially a Greyhound bus identified as Voyageur. Greyhound eventually dropped the Voyageur name completely.

[Acajack]

Here is a Voyageur bus in Toronto with the old look (it's at the corner of Sherbourne).

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Voyageur_Colonial_Bus_Lines

So I am pretty sure that they did the Ottawa-Toronto and Montreal-Toronto routes.

(Because I don't think that Voyageur ever had their buses do charter tours like your Aunt Myrtle and Uncle Vern take to spend a weekend in Niagara.)

I believe that the only time you saw or see Trentway-Wagar buses in the Ottawa area or southern Quebec was for those chartered coach tours, for groups from central-southern Ontario.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So I am pretty sure that they did the Ottawa-Toronto and Montreal-Toronto routes.

Voyageur definitely did both of those routes. I took it from Montreal to Toronto many times.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

As discussed in the Rural Bus Network thread, this wasn't all that big of an issue before the confederation line was built, since the regional bus operators were allowed to use the Transitway to get downtown. Now that the transitway is gone, the options remaining are:

1. Have the buses fight with traffic on the highways and streets, or
2. Have riders pay twice (once to get to the nearest O-Train station and once to get the rest of the way downtown).

What is really needed is for the province to get involved, but I don't have any hope of that.

I have zero interest in paying for that as a ratepayer.

I really don't see the argument for a single rural bus terminal in the downtown core.

1) It's not that many buses.

2) They approach the city from several directions.

3) Their requirements can be different from long haul buses.

Give them bus bays at terminal stations. They can operate from there. Some kind of fare integration can be worked out.

Long-haul buses don't need to be absolutely downtown. Just close enough. Transit integration is more important. Be that at St-Laurent, Blair, Hurdman or Tremblay. Anybody taking the bus is likely to use transit to get to their destination too.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I am not sure what advantage bus-train transfers offer, they both basically follow the same routes. Maybe connecting from Northern Ontario to Montreal, but if there was a lot of demand for that they would offer a through service.

It depends which route you are talking about, sure the Ottawa-Montreal express bus follows a similar route (though there are no stops between Kirkland and Ottawa), but the north shore and south shore routes don't serve any of the same intermediary communities.

For westerly buses, the two Ottawa-Kingston routes and Ottawa-Toronto (express) route are have some overlap with VIA's route, but the Ottawa-Toronto (via Peterborough) routes are very different.

Of course the elephant in the room is HFR. The big advantage the bus has on the Ottawa-Montreal express route, is frequency. If VIA can provide hourly train service, that advantage will go away, and the bus will only be able to compete on price and by offering local service.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I have zero interest in paying for that as a ratepayer.

I agree it should be as much a responsibility for the City of Ottawa as the GO Bus terminal is for the city of Toronto. It should be a provincial (or federal) responsibility.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I really don't see the argument for a single rural bus terminal in the downtown core.

1) It's not that many buses.

Today. This is in large part because the province does nothing to support the commuter buses (but fully support the GO buses in Toronto). Also, with the skyrocketing cost of real estate in Ottawa, people are being forced to move outside of the city to find an affordable home (600k for a townhome in the far suburbs is not affordable).

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

2) They approach the city from several directions.

There are two main corridors into the central part of the city: 417 to Nicholas from the east and southeast and 417 west to Kent/Lyon from the west and southwest.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

3) Their requirements can be different from long haul buses.

I don't disagree, but that is different from not having any requirements.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Give them bus bays at terminal stations. They can operate from there. Some kind of fare integration can be worked out.

The city has no interest in subsidizing the commute of those who don't live in the city, and nor should it. Maybe an argument could be made that since the city doesn't have to provide Connexion service or Park & Ride space a slight discount can be justified, but I just don't see that happening. It still doesn't do anything to justify the province treating Ottawa like a second class city in terms of regional transit.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Long-haul buses don't need to be absolutely downtown. Just close enough. Transit integration is more important. Be that at St-Laurent, Blair, Hurdman or Tremblay. Anybody taking the bus is likely to use transit to get to their destination too.

It is certainly a compromise that can be made.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

It depends which route you are talking about, sure the Ottawa-Montreal express bus follows a similar route (though there are no stops between Kirkland and Ottawa), but the north shore and south shore routes don't serve any of the same intermediary communities.

For westerly buses, the two Ottawa-Kingston routes and Ottawa-Toronto (express) route are have some overlap with VIA's route, but the Ottawa-Toronto (via Peterborough) routes are very different.

But at what point would you transfer onto a train?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Here is a Voyageur bus in Toronto with the old look (it's at the corner of Sherbourne).

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Voyageur_Colonial_Bus_Lines

So I am pretty sure that they did the Ottawa-Toronto and Montreal-Toronto routes.

(Because I don't think that Voyageur ever had their buses do charter tours like your Aunt Myrtle and Uncle Vern take to spend a weekend in Niagara.)

I believe that the only time you saw or see Trentway-Wagar buses in the Ottawa area or southern Quebec was for those chartered coach tours, for groups from central-southern Ontario.

Voyager sold the route in 1996.

https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/Coach_Canada

I am not sure the order of acquisitions, but I am pretty sure I used to see Trentway Wagar buses on the 401.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I agree it should be as much a responsibility for the City of Ottawa as the GO Bus terminal is for the city of Toronto. It should be a provincial (or federal) responsibility.

But it won't be. Which is why we're talking about this. Best case scenario is that they pitch in a fraction of the cost.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Today. This is in large part because the province does nothing to support the commuter buses (but fully support the GO buses in Toronto). Also, with the skyrocketing cost of real estate in Ottawa, people are being forced to move outside of the city to find an affordable home (600k for a townhome in the far suburbs is not affordable).

We're a metro of 1.3 million. I don't buy the excuse that folks need to move 50 km to be able to afford shelter. They may need to move that far too buy the type of real estate they desire. That is a whole different problem which I, as a Ottawa taxpayer see no need to subsidize. Incidentally, also why I don't have much sympathy if they end up stuck in traffic for an hour or two.

Originally Posted by roger1818

There are two main corridors into the central part of the city: 417 to Nicholas from the east and southeast and 417 west to Kent/Lyon from the west and southwest.

Put in terminus bus terminals at Bayshore, Trim and Leitrim. That should be enough to cover every major approach to the city. No different than GO bus terminals at Yorkdale, York Mills and Scarborough Centre.

Originally Posted by roger1818

The city has no interest in subsidizing the commute of those who don't live in the city, and nor should it. Maybe an argument could be made that since the city doesn't have to provide Connexion service or Park & Ride space a slight discount can be justified, but I just don't see that happening. It still doesn't do anything to justify the province treating Ottawa like a second class city in terms of regional transit.
...
It is certainly a compromise that can be made.

Personally, I have no interest in subsidizing their commute either. But if we don't want their buses clogging up the core, and we want to encourage a modal shift away from driving, then we have to have some kind of integration. Hopefully, the city can force fare integration on these companies and get them to include the full or discounted OC Transpo fare in their passenger fare.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

But at what point would you transfer onto a train?

Montreal- Peterborough, for instance. Not sure what the passenger numbers would be for that, but I think the general idea is train to a bus which serves smaller places or those where the train doesn’t stop. Of course you would need operating bus routes for that to work.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Put in terminus bus terminals at Bayshore, Trim and Leitrim. That should be enough to cover every major approach to the city. No different than GO bus terminals at Yorkdale, York Mills and Scarborough Centre.

You’re forgetting the main Go bus terminal (not to mention the Go train station) at Union that is the hub of the system. Any decent commuter system takes people downtown efficiently.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by phil235

You’re forgetting the main Go bus terminal (not to mention the Go train station) at Union that is the hub of the system. Any decent commuter system takes people downtown efficiently.

Yeah. But that was an entire system funded by the province. We're not getting that here. So the only accomodation to be made is integrating their bus services into our network. I don't see why we should be footing the bill to build a downtown bus terminal for people who actually avoid paying taxes to the city.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Yeah. But that was an entire system funded by the province. We're not getting that here. So the only accomodation to be made is integrating their bus services into our network. I don't see why we should be footing the bill to build a downtown bus terminal for people who actually avoid paying taxes to the city.

True. It seems like we would have a strong case for at least a GO bus system here. This may be a good moment to push for it, with Greyhound essentially abandoning a lot of the smaller places in Eastern Ontario. It actually wouldn't require a huge capital investment to get it up and running, and the economic benefits would be significant.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by phil235

True. It seems like we would have a strong case for at least a GO bus system here. This may be a good moment to push for it, with Greyhound essentially abandoning a lot of the smaller places in Eastern Ontario. It actually wouldn't require a huge capital investment to get it up and running, and the economic benefits would be significant.

Why? What's the case for doing this? Looks to me like all we'd get is more transit induced sprawl. To add to the mess we're about to get in the East at least.

Again, we're a city of a million. In a metro of 1.4 million. Why the hell do we need regional buses going in every direction. And why does the City of Ottawa have any obligation to facilitate them?

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Why? What's the case for doing this? Looks to me like all we'd get is more transit induced sprawl. To add to the mess we're about to get in the East at least.

Again, we're a city of a million. In a metro of 1.4 million. Why the hell do we need regional buses going in every direction. And why does the City of Ottawa have any obligation to facilitate them?

Well, we are talking about having the province do this. However, in any metro of 1.4 million, there are going to be a significant number of people commuting from nearby towns and cities. The City's primary interest is in getting those people on transit and out of their cars. (It looks like the figure is about 6% in Ottawa, so that is roughly 35-40,000 commuters.)

The secondary interest is generally improving connectivity in the region, which has economic benefits.

Lastly, I'd argue that places outside the greenbelt are actually the kind of places that are served by commuter service in most metros.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by phil235

Well, we are talking about having the province do this. However, in any metro of 1.4 million, there are going to be a significant number of people commuting from nearby towns and cities. The City's primary interest is in getting those people on transit and out of their cars. (It looks like the figure is about 6% in Ottawa, so that is roughly 35-40,000 commuters.)

The city's primary interest is actually in deterring further increases in ex-urban commuting.

We have a climate crisis. In no small part because people think living 3000 sqft homes and commuting 50 km is normal. We shouldn't be facilitating any of this. Least of all in a city that has plenty of room to develop.

Originally Posted by phil235

The secondary interest is generally improving connectivity in the region, which has economic benefits.

You don't say who those benefits accrue to. Unlikely that the bulk of that gain is helping the City of Ottawa and its residents.

Originally Posted by phil235

Lastly, I'd argue that places outside the greenbelt are actually the kind of places that are served by commuter service in most metros.

The question is how far outside the greenbelt, at what population levels and on whose dime?

The GTHA didn't even get GO service until they were well over 3 million in population in '67. And that was a handful of GO Trains with bus service only starting in 1970. And all of Toronto's satellite cities were much larger in that time period than what surrounds Ottawa today.

Also, GO charges quite a bit for fares. Good luck to any service in Ottawa running on that kind of fare box recovery ratio actually paying for infrastructure like a downtown terminal.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The city's primary interest is actually in deterring further increases in ex-urban commuting.

We have a climate crisis. In no small part because people think living 3000 sqft homes and commuting 50 km is normal. We shouldn't be facilitating any of this. Least of all in a city that has plenty of room to develop.



You don't say who those benefits accrue to. Unlikely that the bulk of that gain is helping the City of Ottawa and its residents.



The question is how far outside the greenbelt, at what population levels and on whose dime?

The GTHA didn't even get GO service until they were well over 3 million in population in '67. And that was a handful of GO Trains with bus service only starting in 1970. And all of Toronto's satellite cities were much larger in that time period than what surrounds Ottawa today.

Also, GO charges quite a bit for fares. Good luck to any service in Ottawa running on that kind of fare box recovery ratio actually paying for infrastructure like a downtown terminal.

I'm not sure that good regional public transportation has a strong correlation to sprawl. You may be right, but I haven't seen anything documenting that. On the other hand, it might reduce the pressure on the City to extend LRT to the farthest reaches of the suburbs, so they can focus on improving urban transit.

I do think it's a fair question as to whether we are there yet as a city. No chance that the service would pay for the infrastructure (I can't think of one that does), but if private bus lines are operating profitably, presumably a public system could at least do as well in terms of fare recovery.

I'd say that the economic benefits of making it easier for people to get into the city would primarily accrue to the central city. Assuming that you have decent all day service, it would be beneficial to businesses and institutions in Ottawa, and would be an incentive for employers to locate in Ottawa to take advantage of transportation links.

[JHikka]

I have a difficult time imagining that places like Kemptville, Casselman, and Arnprior have the demand for intercity bus services to-and-from Ottawa on the same level as GO. OC Transpo already slugs buses around Kanata, Barrhaven, and Orleans.