VIA Rail

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

If HFR gets built and is successful, then the future should be more optimistic. If VIA continues the status quo of garbage service for all, then there is little hope. Service will get worse and worse, the equipment older and older and there will be less and less support in the population to preserve the service just because it was so nice in the 50s.

Freight loads are growing. And a lot of VIA's services are getting sidelined more and more. If HFR doesn't happen, I think we see the end of VIA as a federal crown corp inside 15 years. Either shut down or broken up to private operators or the provinces.

If HFR happens, VIA will have freed up some subsidy from the Corridor, and actually made itself relevant to at least half the population. That should position it to have a lot more resources to modernize and expand other services after. There's even some obvious follow-on improvements both regionally, or which bolt on to HFR (The Ocean for example).

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by wave46

Would it work? Maybe, but I don't see the long-term future of VIA as bright given the fiscal problems of governments today. You can only defer capital spending so long before you're in a position of serious commitment or abandonment.

If anything it's amazing VIA has survived so long while being so completely starved of investment. Is there any other federal agency that is so neglected?

That said, they are getting proper new trains for where they are needed. But the fact that this is newsworthy shows how low our standards are with VIA.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by milomilo

That doesn't solve the problem that those segments probably won't stand on their own merits. The number of riders that are going to choose a 20 hour Winnipeg to Calgary train will be miniscule, thus the frequency will be low, investment in equipment and line upgrades will be non existent and hence the service would be even less attractive. It's a waste of money that takes away funds from where it actually would be useful.

Rail is unsuited for very long distance routes covering low population density areas, and the longer we insist VIA prioritizes these routes over the routes where rail does make sense, the sooner VIA's impending doom becomes. If we wish VIA to live on, then it needs to focus on routes where it can provide good service. VIA appears to be well aware of this, thankfully, and are focusing all the equipment upgrades on the corridor, promoting HFR, and doing the bare minimum elsewhere, as anything more than that is just money down the drain.

How minuscule? What evidence do you have for that? It is ironic that we are arguing our ideas, yet no one really has the numbers.... (yet)

How low of frequency would you feel it would support?

If you think it is HFR or bust for Via, then anything, and I mean ABSOLUTELY anything outside the Corridor is dead.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Well, your vision of a VIA service limited to the Toronto-Montreal corridor, and my vision of an interconnected national transcontinental service are completely incompatible with one another. It appears that I am not going to convince you, nor are you going to convince me.

The solution therefore is to disband VIA and let Ontario and Quebec manage the rail service in central Canada. Meanwhile the west will be left with no bus and no passenger rail. At least the Maritimes has a functional intercity bus service.

Some people only look through a narrow lens. We are not Japan, or Europe, or even the USA. However, we could have decent service throughout the country, if we were to invest in it being frequent enough, and be on time. I don't think anyone, including me wants a Corridor level of frequency everywhere else. However, once a day, each way that is on time really isn't too much to ask for the 15+ million citizens outside of the Corridor, is it?

Originally Posted by milomilo

I don't see why that means VIA should be disbanded, even if there were no VIA service in some provinces (or territories, should we send trains up there!?). If there is some issue of "fairness", then that doesn't make much sense, it's not efficient to divide public spending on any part of the budget equally between all the provinces, they all have different needs and will get less of some things and more of others. Should I be angry at the lack of naval infrastructure in Alberta? After all, I'm paying for it.

Here is a question: Let's say the link to Alaska is built. Would you be for paying Amtrak/Via to run a passenger train along it through Canada?

And if you think there is no naval infrastructure in AB, how badly do you want your bubble busted?

Look up HMCS Nonsuch, HMCS Chippewa, HMCS Queen and HMCS Tecumseh. I am a retired RCN member. Your lack of understanding our services insults me, and everyone in those Ship's Companies that wear their RCN uniform with pride.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Freight loads are growing. And a lot of VIA's services are getting sidelined more and more. If HFR doesn't happen, I think we see the end of VIA as a federal crown corp inside 15 years. Either shut down or broken up to private operators or the provinces.

If HFR happens, VIA will have freed up some subsidy from the Corridor, and actually made itself relevant to at least half the population. That should position it to have a lot more resources to modernize and expand other services after. There's even some obvious follow-on improvements both regionally, or which bolt on to HFR (The Ocean for example).

Agreed entirely. I don't see how the Canadian has any part to play in this though, as it too will continue to face the pressure of increased freight at the same time its already ancient equipment ages further. Sure, a brand new order of equipment could be made - but what a waste of money that would be, that could go elsewhere.

As an Albertan, any money spent by VIA on a service in Alberta that isn't an HFR type deal involving Calgary and Edmonton is offensive, and it's getting pretty irritating to constantly be told that what Albertans deserve from VIA is slightly improved transcontinental service. It's why I've hardened my position on the Canadian from indifference to "scrap it ASAP".

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

As an Albertan, any money spent by VIA on a service in Alberta that isn't an HFR type deal involving Calgary and Edmonton is offensive, and it's getting pretty irritating to constantly be told that what Albertans deserve from VIA is slightly improved transcontinental service. It's why I've hardened my position on the Canadian from indifference to "scrap it ASAP".

The irony here is that the biggest advocates for nationwide passenger rail expansion don't understand the value of making VIA Rail relevant to more people. Even in the Corridor, VIA is used by far too few people. Right now, even a lot of Ontarians would argue that VIA is irrelevant.

Projects like HFR which regularize train travel for more of the population, will actually build public support for more intercity passenger rail investment. I see it as VIA's political Trojan horse.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The irony here is that the biggest advocates for nationwide passenger rail expansion don't understand the value of making VIA Rail relevant to more people. Even in the Corridor, VIA is used by far too few people. Right now, even a lot of Ontarians would argue that VIA is irrelevant.

Projects like HFR which regularize train travel for more of the population, will actually build public support for more intercity passenger rail investment. I see it as VIA's political Trojan horse.

Agreed. Effectively I'm being told that I don't know what's best for me when I say that medium distance, high frequency rail services in Alberta should be prioritised over a transcontinental tourist train or long distance daily trains to Winnipeg. Easterners that think they are doing western Canada a favour by insisting the Canadian limps on may have their heart in the right place, but their efforts are counter productive.

And I'm someone who actually wants rail! Many people here are indifferent, but their only impression of VIA in this province is a money pit that none of us will ever use, so they're hardly going to have much love for VIA when we pay disproportionately more into the federal coffers. If, instead we could look across at a modern train going faster than a car as one drove up to Edmonton, then there might be a bit more support.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

If anything should be considered in the Maritimes it should be increased frequency between a simple Moncton and Halifax line connecting to both LeBlanc and Stanfield, then potentially lengthening to Saint John if demand warrants.

I think the Moncton-Halifax route is by far the best segment to start with in the region. It currently has passenger rail, or at least did before covid. Aside from the cities at either end it has a bunch of towns plus YHZ along the way. About half of the route is either in the Halifax commuter shed or in the Moncton commuter shed; if it were appropriately priced there are a lot of trips it could serve beyond just those going the full length of the line. I'd guess it has nearly half the population of the Maritimes or soon will. This tends to get discussed in a weird way on SSP, with a few cities being treated as roughly equal destinations while nothing else matters.

Halifax does have ride sharing now so visiting without a car is going to be a lot easier.

VIA said they want to serve this route better but who knows if it will happen.

[Truenorth00]

Moncton-Halifax could get the HFR treatment with some justification. I've long argued that it be on the follow-on list, beside Calgary-Edmonton.

[milomilo]

It's a shame the VIA line doesn't go through one of the other of NB's three main cities, and they are annoyingly arranged in a triangle, not a line.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Moncton-Halifax could get the HFR treatment with some justification. I've long argued that it be on the follow-on list, beside Calgary-Edmonton.

If you added in Saint John in the corridor, that would be getting up to about 950,000 people (including smaller towns along the way).

I'm not sure about HFR, but I would be happy with 2-3x daily rail passenger service along this corridor.

Outside of the Quebec-Windsor corridor however, and Edmonton-Calgary, a Saint John-Moncton-Halifax corridor would make the most sense in terms of future service expansion.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Moncton-Halifax could get the HFR treatment with some justification. I've long argued that it be on the follow-on list, beside Calgary-Edmonton.

When i was a kid there kind of was HFR, at least compared to now. I remember the train passed through Amherst (on the Hfx-Moncton corridor) multiple times/day each direction and there were way more passenger trains than freight. I remember how excited I would get when I heard a train approaching and it turned out to be a freight since they were so much longer and more interesting. I also remember how confused i was one time when i saw a short DMU running because I had never seen a train without a locomotive before and I assumed the passenger cars were somehow just coasting.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think the Moncton-Halifax route is by far the best segment to start with in the region. It currently has passenger rail, or at least did before covid. Aside from the cities at either end it has a bunch of towns plus YHZ along the way. About half of the route is either in the Halifax commuter shed or in the Moncton commuter shed; if it were appropriately priced there are a lot of trips it could serve beyond just those going the full length of the line. I'd guess it has nearly half the population of the Maritimes or soon will. This tends to get discussed in a weird way on SSP, with a few cities being treated as roughly equal destinations while nothing else matters.

The Moncton-Halifax corridor has over a third of the Maritime population for certain based on my very quick mental math. Could be wrong.

It seems pretty easy to envision a Moncton-Halifax line stopping at

• Moncton
• LeBlanc International (doesn't really line up well but there's potential)
• Memramcook (if you really want)
• Sackville
• Amherst (if you really want)
• Truro
• Stanfield International
• Bedford
• Halifax

It would be great if the line was shortened and straightened between Memramcook and Sackville so it doesn't meander around Dorchester.

Originally Posted by milomilo

It's a shame the VIA line doesn't go through one of the other of NB's three main cities, and they are annoyingly arranged in a triangle, not a line.

This is something that's drawn the ire of just about everyone i'd say, and there simply isn't enough population mass between Fredericton/Moncton and Fredericton/Saint John to create any sort of triangle service in any meaningful way. At least the Moncton/Saint John corridor has steady towns and villages along its route that would be somewhat useful for VIA service (Salisbury, Sussex, Hampton, Kennebecasis).

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

If you added in Saint John in the corridor, that would be getting up to about 950,000 people (including smaller towns along the way).

Second phase....

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I'm not sure about HFR, but I would be happy with 2-3x daily rail passenger service along this corridor.

I think we need to move away from VIA running low frequency services that nobody relies on. On corridors line these, put in the infrastructure and commit to hourly services. Size the trains accordingly. It's frequency and price that will build a dependent user base.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Outside of the Quebec-Windsor corridor however, and Edmonton-Calgary, a Saint John-Moncton-Halifax corridor would make the most sense in terms of future service expansion.

Yep. Which is why I argue that all those corridors need the HFR treatment. And I would put that over another penny spent on the Canadian. Covering the Quebec-Windsor, Calgary-Edmonton and Saint John-Moncton corridors with high frequency rail would put something like 60-70% of Canada's population within 50km of an hourly VIA Rail departure. That is what changes the conversation on intercity passenger rail service. Not a few extra runs of the Canadian.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

1) There's a very limited market for an expensive week long ride through rural Canada and wilderness. Especially at the amount of time the Canadian takes and at its prices.

2) Why should the Government of Canada be in the business of running tourist services? If so, why stop with VIA? Do we expect the federal government to run Arctic cruises too?

To answer question 1. The same reason why Air Canada and WestJet have a business class cabin on their aircraft. The same reason virtually every international airline has business class. It is a premium service that a very small number of people are willing to pay a significant premium for. I helps pay for the train to be there. You can then add an economy car or two that you only have to cover the incremental cost instead of the full cost of the operation.

The government is in the business of running a tourist train already. That is what the Canadian is.

[casper]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Agreed. Effectively I'm being told that I don't know what's best for me when I say that medium distance, high frequency rail services in Alberta should be prioritised over a transcontinental tourist train or long distance daily trains to Winnipeg. Easterners that think they are doing western Canada a favour by insisting the Canadian limps on may have their heart in the right place, but their efforts are counter productive.

And I'm someone who actually wants rail! Many people here are indifferent, but their only impression of VIA in this province is a money pit that none of us will ever use, so they're hardly going to have much love for VIA when we pay disproportionately more into the federal coffers. If, instead we could look across at a modern train going faster than a car as one drove up to Edmonton, then there might be a bit more support.

The Canadian should be forced to evolve into a profitable tourist oriented operation. The subsidy can then be used to open up new shorter routes.

[someone123]

Maybe this is obvious but if you focus on shorter routes and improving the track to allow higher speeds, you can attain much higher frequencies without adding more trains and workers.

The Ocean takes about 21 hours one way. The 6 trip per week schedule would work out to 6 trips per day on the shorter route. The current service level is enough for either acceptable service for Moncton-Halifax or miserable service for Montreal-Halifax.

Another reality is that when you've got a 21 hour train there's no way to have a nice schedule for everybody along the route. The train is guaranteed to have to visit some stops at odd hours, and there's no guarantee that a given trip along the route will ever have reasonable timing.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by casper

The Canadian should be forced to evolve into a profitable tourist oriented operation. The subsidy can then be used to open up new shorter routes.

LOL. If it was too run entirely on a tourist model, it would cease to be year round and probably down to once per week. People here really overestimate the tourist demand for this trip.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The Moncton-Halifax corridor has over a third of the Maritime population for certain based on my very quick mental math. Could be wrong.

It seems pretty easy to envision a Moncton-Halifax line stopping at

• Moncton
• LeBlanc International (doesn't really line up well but there's potential)
• Memramcook (if you really want)
• Sackville
• Amherst (if you really want)
• Truro
• Stanfield International
• Bedford
• Halifax

It would be great if the line was shortened and straightened between Memramcook and Sackville so it doesn't meander around Dorchester.


This is something that's drawn the ire of just about everyone i'd say, and there simply isn't enough population mass between Fredericton/Moncton and Fredericton/Saint John to create any sort of triangle service in any meaningful way. At least the Moncton/Saint John corridor has steady towns and villages along its route that would be somewhat useful for VIA service (Salisbury, Sussex, Hampton, Kennebecasis).

That "if you really want" part was just

Amherst is almost twice the size of Sackville. If Amherst gets an "if you really want" then Sackville gets an "only if you absolutely insist"

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Amherst is almost twice the size of Sackville. If Amherst gets an "if you really want" then Sackville gets an "only if you absolutely insist"

Sure, but Sackville has Mount A, which I would assume would offer more potential riders for VIA than a large portion of Amherst would.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Agreed. Effectively I'm being told that I don't know what's best for me when I say that medium distance, high frequency rail services in Alberta should be prioritised over a transcontinental tourist train or long distance daily trains to Winnipeg. Easterners that think they are doing western Canada a favour by insisting the Canadian limps on may have their heart in the right place, but their efforts are counter productive.

And I'm someone who actually wants rail! Many people here are indifferent, but their only impression of VIA in this province is a money pit that none of us will ever use, so they're hardly going to have much love for VIA when we pay disproportionately more into the federal coffers. If, instead we could look across at a modern train going faster than a car as one drove up to Edmonton, then there might be a bit more support.

So that it is empty? To go from nothing to HFR makes no sense out of China, where it is a make work project. Now, ensuring the line can support 90mph service and that it could be built up to high frequency is a good idea, and a good start.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

If you added in Saint John in the corridor, that would be getting up to about 950,000 people (including smaller towns along the way).

I'm not sure about HFR, but I would be happy with 2-3x daily rail passenger service along this corridor.

Outside of the Quebec-Windsor corridor however, and Edmonton-Calgary, a Saint John-Moncton-Halifax corridor would make the most sense in terms of future service expansion.

I agree that adding a separate train along that route makes sense. Sadly, I doubt anyone who could make these changes want to.