VIA Rail

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by milomilo

OK. Why bother? The Strathcona station is better located for travel to Calgary. Connection to the Canadian has no value but requires a lengthy runaround the city.

It is also nowhere near an LRT line. So, it is no better for getting downtown. If you are thinking this will only run between 2 stations, that is laughable. Most likely, it'll have a stations somewhere in the southern part of the city, maybe there.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

It is also nowhere near an LRT line. So, it is no better for getting downtown. If you are thinking this will only run between 2 stations, that is laughable. Most likely, it'll have a stations somewhere in the southern part of the city, maybe there.

Neither is a good option. Sorry to be patronising, but why is it so hard to see what is blatantly obvious?

The easiest option is to terminate at Strathcona, which still sucks but it's a 15 minute cab to downtown. You are proposing, with zero justification, to run around the city on a ~20km freight branch line to a station in the north of the city, which still isn't very close to an LRT station. So after that 30 minute detour, you have to walk over to the LRT and then get from there to your final destination, adding who knows how much time. And this is after your 4+ hour long train ride from Calgary, that was probably late. If you want to add stations, that just adds to the negative time difference.

Or you could just take the Red Arrow bus, which already exists and is scheduled to take 3 hours 20 minutes downtown to downtown. If you want a train, that is your target to beat. You will avoid this point, I predict.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Neither is a good option. Sorry to be patronising, but why is it so hard to see what is blatantly obvious?

The easiest option is to terminate at Strathcona, which still sucks but it's a 15 minute cab to downtown. You are proposing, with zero justification, to run around the city on a ~20km freight branch line to a station in the north of the city, which still isn't very close to an LRT station. So after that 30 minute detour, you have to walk over to the LRT and then get from there to your final destination, adding who knows how much time. And this is after your 4+ hour long train ride from Calgary, that was probably late. If you want to add stations, that just adds to the negative time difference.

Or you could just take the Red Arrow bus, which already exists and is scheduled to take 3 hours 20 minutes downtown to downtown. If you want a train, that is your target to beat. You will avoid this point, I predict.

I am proposing a station that meets the Canadian and that meets the LRT. That is the best, not easiest option. If this is to be successful, having transit connections, plus having the connection to the Canadian will make it even more viable. Having it at a station that requires a cab ride to get to anything is not a viable option.

Besides, the entire line is freight.

[milomilo]

See, as predicted you ignored the point that a bus already exists that makes the route in 3:20. Do you think a train can beat that?

You're weakening your original position that VIA should just run the cheapest train possible on existing infrastructure, as now you are saying that a new LRT and VIA station needs to be built.

Connecting to the Canadian is utterly pointless. How many people would make that transfer? There are only 6 trains per week!

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by milomilo

See, as predicted you ignored the point that a bus already exists that makes the route in 3:20. Do you think a train can beat that?

You're weakening your original position that VIA should just run the cheapest train possible on existing infrastructure, as now you are saying that a new LRT and VIA station needs to be built.

Connecting to the Canadian is utterly pointless. How many people would make that transfer? There are only 6 trains per week!

Forget it, in his alternative reality, people simply take the train because it’s a train, not because it offers any advantages over other modes of transport...^^

[Dengler Avenue]

people simply take the train because it’s a train

Just saying, there aren’t probably many of us, but we sure exist as a group.

For the record, I still railfan, but all these subdivision and spur route names lose me real quick. I don’t even know which route belongs to CN and which one CP. (ONR’s is easy to tell though.)

Also since it’s Thursday, time for a #tbt:
I took VIA once (both ways) between TO and MTL in winter 2014. Midtrip, we had to stop in the middle of nowhere to wait for the freight train. Now there were oil cars nearby. Keep in mind that the tragedy at Lac Mégantic happened just half a year ago, and at that time I didn’t know the exact cause, so seeing the oil cars standing by was sure as discomforting for me.

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I am proposing a station that meets the Canadian and that meets the LRT. That is the best, not easiest option. If this is to be successful, having transit connections, plus having the connection to the Canadian will make it even more viable. Having it at a station that requires a cab ride to get to anything is not a viable option.

Besides, the entire line is freight.

I agree with this mostly, it's just problematic for a future line that there can't be a station in downtown Edmonton because of the removal of the downtown rail line (which of course has been a big benefit otherwise).

Running it to Strathcona, since there is a proposed LRT for Whyte Ave to Downtown, could be the solution. Regardless, Whyte Ave is a primary tourist point of interest, so it's not the worst case scenario.

There will be multiple stops on the new/hypothesized Chinook Line of course, but likely only Downtown Calgary, YYC, Red Deer, YEG, and whichever point of terminus is chosen in Edmonton. I could also see Olds possibly getting a station, as Olds College is fairly significant, a town population around 10 000 people, and outside the northern reaches of Calgary's economic region.

An extension to Lethbridge eventually would make sense, with a stop in Okotoks or High River before the long jump to downtown Lethbridge.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

I agree with this mostly, it's just problematic for a future line that there can't be a station in downtown Edmonton because of the removal of the downtown rail line (which of course has been a big benefit otherwise).

Running it to Strathcona, since there is a proposed LRT for Whyte Ave to Downtown, could be the solution. Regardless, Whyte Ave is a primary tourist point of interest, so it's not the worst case scenario.

There will be multiple stops on the new/hypothesized Chinook Line of course, but likely only Downtown Calgary, YYC, Red Deer, YEG, and whichever point of terminus is chosen in Edmonton. I could also see Olds possibly getting a station, as Olds College is fairly significant, a town population around 10 000 people, and outside the northern reaches of Calgary's economic region.

An extension to Lethbridge eventually would make sense, with a stop in Okotoks or High River before the long jump to downtown Lethbridge.

The thing is though, swimmer is saying that you can just use the existing infrastructure to run VIA trains and start from there without spending much money. Some of us, unsuccessfully, are trying to point out that this would be pointless as it would be too slow and infrequent. I was using the scenario of just Calgary - Edmonton, because as soon as you start adding stations it becomes even slower.

For rail to be worthwhile it has to either be cheaper or faster than one of the existing options, but it will be neither of those vs a car, plane or bus. Unless anyone thinks that a passenger train running on the CP line + a connection in Edmonton can be faster than the 3hr20 Red Arrow?

We must talk about this with reality in mind. If we want a Calgary - Edmonton line to be viable, it is going to need significant investment. It needs to be faster than a bus or car, which would also probably make it faster than a plane in terms of total journey time, and it would need to be reliable otherwise forget about business traffic.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by milomilo

See, as predicted you ignored the point that a bus already exists that makes the route in 3:20. Do you think a train can beat that?

You're weakening your original position that VIA should just run the cheapest train possible on existing infrastructure, as now you are saying that a new LRT and VIA station needs to be built.

Connecting to the Canadian is utterly pointless. How many people would make that transfer? There are only 6 trains per week!

Most of the Corridor trans cannot beat the bus or planes, yet they are full. Why is that?

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Forget it, in his alternative reality, people simply take the train because it’s a train, not because it offers any advantages over other modes of transport...^^

Why do people take a train on the Corridor when driving, a bus and plane are all faster?

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Just saying, there aren’t probably many of us, but we sure exist as a group.

For the record, I still railfan, but all these subdivision and spur route names lose me real quick. I don’t even know which route belongs to CN and which one CP. (ONR’s is easy to tell though.)

Also since it’s Thursday, time for a #tbt:
I took VIA once (both ways) between TO and MTL in winter 2014. Midtrip, we had to stop in the middle of nowhere to wait for the freight train. Now there were oil cars nearby. Keep in mind that the tragedy at Lac Mégantic happened just half a year ago, and at that time I didn’t know the exact cause, so seeing the oil cars standing by was sure as discomforting for me.

There is something that one day would like changed. I now it is a pipe dream, but still, it would make passenger better.

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

I agree with this mostly, it's just problematic for a future line that there can't be a station in downtown Edmonton because of the removal of the downtown rail line (which of course has been a big benefit otherwise).

Running it to Strathcona, since there is a proposed LRT for Whyte Ave to Downtown, could be the solution. Regardless, Whyte Ave is a primary tourist point of interest, so it's not the worst case scenario.

There will be multiple stops on the new/hypothesized Chinook Line of course, but likely only Downtown Calgary, YYC, Red Deer, YEG, and whichever point of terminus is chosen in Edmonton. I could also see Olds possibly getting a station, as Olds College is fairly significant, a town population around 10 000 people, and outside the northern reaches of Calgary's economic region.

An extension to Lethbridge eventually would make sense, with a stop in Okotoks or High River before the long jump to downtown Lethbridge.

Ottawa's is about 5km from downtown, but it still is busy. I feel that is because it has good transit connections.

I agree with the stops you suggest. The goal must be that it does connect to the LRT. Otherwise it won't be much of a success. If money were like dreams, a brand new intermodal station downtown Edmonton would be built. But, I think that is not very realistic.

As far as Lethbridge, I agree to that too. A southern extension could become a route like the Maple Leaf where it goes into the States to Shelby Montana or further to connect with the rest of Amtrak. We could even have a northern extension to Hay River NWT.

That is just it. We can whine about the problems, or we can look for solutions. I am looking at what the solutions are.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by milomilo

The thing is though, swimmer is saying that you can just use the existing infrastructure to run VIA trains and start from there without spending much money. Some of us, unsuccessfully, are trying to point out that this would be pointless as it would be too slow and infrequent. I was using the scenario of just Calgary - Edmonton, because as soon as you start adding stations it becomes even slower.

For rail to be worthwhile it has to either be cheaper or faster than one of the existing options, but it will be neither of those vs a car, plane or bus. Unless anyone thinks that a passenger train running on the CP line + a connection in Edmonton can be faster than the 3hr20 Red Arrow?

We must talk about this with reality in mind. If we want a Calgary - Edmonton line to be viable, it is going to need significant investment. It needs to be faster than a bus or car, which would also probably make it faster than a plane in terms of total journey time, and it would need to be reliable otherwise forget about business traffic.

Corridor trip between Toronto and Montreal can be up to 9 hours. I can do it in 5 driving. So, why is it a success? You answer that and I will take what you have to say as more than belly aching.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Most of the Corridor trans cannot beat the bus or planes, yet they are full. Why is that?

Why do people take a train on the Corridor when driving, a bus and plane are all faster?

Again, if you would actually do some research rather than relying on the notoriously unreliable gut feeling which is grotesquely distorted by the alternative reality you live in, you would know that the train is competitive against the bus and the car on most distances, as this little comparison of the fastest travel times I could find:

• Quebec City-Montreal: 3:11 Rail / 2:42 Car / 03:00 Bus => Car-Bus-Rail
• Montreal-Ottawa: 1:50 / 2:03 / 2:30 => Rail-Car-Bus
• Montreal-Toronto: 4:49 / 5:16 / 5:45 => Rail-Car-Bus
• Ottawa-Toronto: 4:05 / 4:16 / 5:15 => Rail-Car-Bus
• Toronto-London: 2:07 / 2:03 / 2:30 => Car-Rail-Bus
• Toronto-Windsor: 3:59 / 3:46 / 5:24 => Car-Rail-Bus

Therefore, rail beats the car within the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal triangle and the bus everywhere except Quebec-Montreal. Also, the train is time-competitive against the plane on half of these routes, as the minimum downtown-to-downtown travel time with the plane is more than 3 hours, almost all of which isn’t productive work time.

And now back to the incoherent and reliably fact-deprived results of your brainstorming right from the alternative reality you live in, which you share incessantly with us for whatever reason...

[niwell]

IIRC 9 hours from Toronto to Montreal would be the milk run with a transfer in Ottawa. Of course the normal 5 hours can also be delayed significantly at times which is an issue. But It's also taken me 8 hours to do the drive on a Sunday/Monday at the end of a long weekend. And personally I'd much rather read a book with a beer on a delayed train than sit in stop and go traffic for 200km on the 401.

Of course we do need significant improvements on the corridor to improve speed and reliability.

If timing is really an issue I'll fly Porter anyways. Never had to do that to Montreal but have had to Ottawa after work on a Friday.

[TorontoDrew]

Good news, while I support the actions of the protesters I'm glad that the negotiations seem to be working.

Via rail posted this lat night.

March 4, 2020 - 5:45PM
MONTRÉAL, March 4, 2020 – VIA Rail Canada (VIA Rail) announces that as of Saturday, March 7, most of its trains will resume service on their normal schedule.

As of this Saturday, all services between Toronto-Montréal and Toronto-Ottawa will be offered, with the exception of trains 45 and 655, which will be resuming the day after on Sunday, March 8.

Furthermore, VIA Rail confirms that the Canadian, which resumed operations with a first departure on March 4, is now back to its full and normal schedule.

VIA Rail service on the Prince-Rupert – Prince-George – Jasper route remains suspended at this time as we continue to work with the infrastructure owner, CN Rail, on a resumption timeline.

As a result, VIA Rail will continue to call back the vast majority of the 1000 employees affected by the temporary suspensions announced on February 19.

[J81]

Originally Posted by roger1818

That is only true when operating on class 5 (or higher) track. AFAIK, CN’s Kingston sub is the only Class 5 track in Canada (I believe even VIA’s own track near Ottawa is most class 4). I believe (and please prove me wrong if you can) most of Canada’s main lines are Class 4 or 3. Branch lines are typically Class 3 and below. Consequently, to operate this way, VIA, would have to pay to have the track upgraded, which would only be worth while if they are running multiple trains a day.

No its not true. I cant show you all the timetable speed charts for every subdivision in the country for obvious reasons but i can tell you that for subdivisions where passenger trains operate there are two charts or two columns depending on the types of passenger equipment operated. Where the two exist on the same sub there is always a difference in speed.

[J81]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Corridor trip between Toronto and Montreal can be up to 9 hours. I can do it in 5 driving. So, why is it a success? You answer that and I will take what you have to say as more than belly aching.

If it takes a VIA train 9 hrs to make that trip something has gone terribly wrong. Its a 5hr trip.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Again, if you would actually do some research rather than relying on the notoriously unreliable gut feeling which is grotesquely distorted by the alternative reality you live in, you would know that the train is competitive against the bus and the car on most distances, as this little comparison of the fastest travel times I could find:

• Quebec City-Montreal: 3:11 Rail / 2:42 Car / 03:00 Bus => Car-Bus-Rail
• Montreal-Ottawa: 1:50 / 2:03 / 2:30 => Rail-Car-Bus
• Montreal-Toronto: 4:49 / 5:16 / 5:45 => Rail-Car-Bus
• Ottawa-Toronto: 4:05 / 4:16 / 5:15 => Rail-Car-Bus
• Toronto-London: 2:07 / 2:03 / 2:30 => Car-Rail-Bus
• Toronto-Windsor: 3:59 / 3:46 / 5:24 => Car-Rail-Bus

Therefore, rail beats the car within the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal triangle and the bus everywhere except Quebec-Montreal. Also, the train is time-competitive against the plane on half of these routes, as the minimum downtown-to-downtown travel time with the plane is more than 3 hours, almost all of which isn’t productive work time.

And now back to the incoherent and reliably fact-deprived results of your brainstorming right from the alternative reality you live in, which you share incessantly with us for whatever reason...

https://www.viarail.ca/en/plan-your-trip/customize-your-train-schedule
over 5 hours for some trains.

For some reason, I saw one for 9 hours that is not there. It might be the one that goes through Ottawa.

Thank you for helping me.

So, the goal would be to match the speed of driving.

Has the corridor in the last 20 years always been equal time to driving?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by J81

No its not true. I cant show you all the timetable speed charts for every subdivision in the country for obvious reasons but i can tell you that for subdivisions where passenger trains operate there are two charts or two columns depending on the types of passenger equipment operated. Where the two exist on the same sub there is always a difference in speed.

Is that public information? Is there a way to get it?

[J81]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Again, if you would actually do some research rather than relying on the notoriously unreliable gut feeling which is grotesquely distorted by the alternative reality you live in, you would know that the train is competitive against the bus and the car on most distances, as this little comparison of the fastest travel times I could find:

• Quebec City-Montreal: 3:11 Rail / 2:42 Car / 03:00 Bus => Car-Bus-Rail
• Montreal-Ottawa: 1:50 / 2:03 / 2:30 => Rail-Car-Bus
• Montreal-Toronto: 4:49 / 5:16 / 5:45 => Rail-Car-Bus
• Ottawa-Toronto: 4:05 / 4:16 / 5:15 => Rail-Car-Bus
• Toronto-London: 2:07 / 2:03 / 2:30 => Car-Rail-Bus
• Toronto-Windsor: 3:59 / 3:46 / 5:24 => Car-Rail-Bus

Therefore, rail beats the car within the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal triangle and the bus everywhere except Quebec-Montreal. Also, the train is time-competitive against the plane on half of these routes, as the minimum downtown-to-downtown travel time with the plane is more than 3 hours, almost all of which isn’t productive work time.

And now back to the incoherent and reliably fact-deprived results of your brainstorming right from the alternative reality you live in, which you share incessantly with us for whatever reason...

Lolol!!! *shakes hand*

Well done

[J81]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Is that public information? Is there a way to get it?

No its not public information. Its a railway document and thus railway property for use by operating crews. Hence why i cant post a picture of the chart here.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

https://www.viarail.ca/en/plan-your-trip/customize-your-train-schedule
over 5 hours for some trains.

For some reason, I saw one for 9 hours that is not there. It might be the one that goes through Ottawa.

Thank you for helping me.

So you know so little about this country’s existing trains that being presented with a travel time which is almost twice what it should be (because you managed to only check one of the few connections which not only detour via Ottawa, but add a stopover of 2+ hours) doesn’t surprise you enough to consider performing a sanity check, yet, you believe you can write a research paper which will convince (not just politically, but also fiscally) conservative politicians about the merits of providing new rural rail services...?