Calgary Public Transit II

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by suburbia

Influencer for what exactly Corndogger?

All things political. Since you're doing it for multiple parties I think it's possible you might be an agent of Unifor's.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by lubicon

So then you really don't know the shutdown was related to a criminal investigation.

It was an investigation of a possible bomb, so yeah, they were investigating in that fashion. Thank god it wasn't one!

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

All things political. Since you're doing it for multiple parties I think it's possible you might be an agent of Unifor's.

Hahaha! Yeah okay, you got me!

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Is there an official system map for when the Green Line opens?

That’s a long ways away yet.

[lrt's friend]

The Ottawa discussion group would like opinion of Calgarians on running LRT down a highway median. What have been the pros and cons especially from a transit users perspective?

[CTrainDude]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The Ottawa discussion group would like opinion of Calgarians on running LRT down a highway median. What have been the pros and cons especially from a transit users perspective?

From a LRT operations perspective, it’s great. Highways are generally straighter and higher speed, which means the train speeds are higher, and sight lines are better. The best part is that it’s totally grade separated. The biggest problem is that the stations need to be much bigger and more expensive to build, since they all need to go up and over the highway. Ottawa already has big stations and grade separation, so that’s pretty much the standard.

The big piece is that the train (and highway) need to be where people are to ride the train, and the stations easily accessed by feeder buses.

[ImmortalHawk]

Originally Posted by CTrainDude

From a LRT operations perspective, it’s great. Highways are generally straighter and higher speed, which means the train speeds are higher, and sight lines are better. The best part is that it’s totally grade separated. The biggest problem is that the stations need to be much bigger and more expensive to build, since they all need to go up and over the highway. Ottawa already has big stations and grade separation, so that’s pretty much the standard.

The big piece is that the train (and highway) need to be where people are to ride the train, and the stations easily accessed by feeder buses.

I'm a little scared of heights, but a bridge across a highway doesn't seem to bad. I'll just hang on to the railing if I need to. Cuz if we have the space, we might as well use it to our advantage.

[CrossedTheTracks]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The Ottawa discussion group would like opinion of Calgarians on running LRT down a highway median. What have been the pros and cons especially from a transit users perspective?

One clear con is an inevitable waste of walkable-distance space from the station, taken up by the highway itself.

This effect tends to be exacerbated by large park-and-ride lots adjacent to the station. For users of the park-and-ride lot, that feels like a feature. Otherwise, it's a barrier to what lies beyond, whether residential or commercial that station patrons may wish to access.

This tends to be further exacerbated by car-oriented design in adjacent commercial spaces. e.g., what's the closest thing to the Dalhousie station on one side? A gas station. Crowfoot station? Most of the office & retail is farther from the station than... car dealerships.

It makes it less attractive to use these stations as a destination, or as a "stop on the way home" for whatever purpose comes up.

Pro? Typically land is cheaper, with available rights of way. Though that's mitigated by more expensive stations.

[J.OT13]

Seems to match a lot of the pros and cons we've heard on the Ottawa forum and from local bloggers.

Other criticisms, as per the link below, is that road accidents could result in shut-downs (eg. cars and trucks crashing into the median, tires flying onto the tracks or stations...) The line, stations and commuters could also be sprayed by slush, salt and grime coming off the highway. The pollution from the cars speeding by could also result in poor air quality for transit users.

Are any of these negative effects experienced by Calgary transit users?

https://www.westsideaction.ca/confederation-lines-new-east-stations-dismay/

In terms of location of the Ottawa stations, Jeanne D'Arc serves a low-density suburban area and recreational complex. This complex has been identified for possible TOD and affordable housing. The closest destination is about 250 meters away. The road it serves is a main thoroughfare that snakes through a large chunk of Orleans, so good potential for local bus transfers. Orleans Boulevard is strictly low-density residential with little to no TOD potential. Some local bus routes could serve the station. Place d'Orleans serves an indoor mall and park-and-rides. Lots of TOD potential but little walk-up traffic potential as is. Trim will only be connected to the south of the highway, serving a park and ride and bus loop. The north of the highway, encompassing a high density residential, a popular beach and a trades college will not be served. The City expects a developer to eventually plug-in with a pedestrian bridge at their own expense.

The first three stations are 400 to 750 meters away from a St-Joseph Boulevard, one of Orleans first thoroughfares with a high potential of becoming a proper retail main street.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Seems to match a lot of the pros and cons we've heard on the Ottawa forum and from local bloggers.

Other criticisms, as per the link below, is that road accidents could result in shut-downs (eg. cars and trucks crashing into the median, tires flying onto the tracks or stations...) The line, stations and commuters could also be sprayed by slush, salt and grime coming off the highway. The pollution from the cars speeding by could also result in poor air quality for transit users.

Are any of these negative effects experienced by Calgary transit users?

The effects noted in your post - no, not at all. I don't think LRTs in highway medians is optimal either, but it should be noted that car and pedestrian collisions will have the very greatest effect when ran on street, and that is totally felt in Calgary. If you use the system for any length of time you will find the rate of collisions and unreliability correlates perfectly with the level of street interaction - the most accidents happen on 7th Ave and 36 St.

[CrossedTheTracks]

What milomilo said, +100. Sure, rollovers have happened. But far less frequently that other problems in the non-(near)-highway sections of the Calgary system.

Also, never have I ever been sprayed with anything coming off the road/highway while on a train platform. The bus loop, walkways, and platform are usually the cleanest things I'll walk on during a winter transit trip. Though, as with any bridge, icing on the bridge to the median station is always something to watch out for.

I have not found vehicle emissions to be an issue either. Not that pollution is necessarily the same thing as smell, but the open air platforms are certainly cleaner-smelling than many underground subway stations in many other cities I've lived in/visited.

[J.OT13]

Thanks for the responses. Puts my mind at ease. Hopefully dose the same for other Ottawa forumers.

[CTrainDude]

As mentioned, it is VERY rare that any vehicular accident goes over the GM barrier to foul the tracks - although one of my favourites when it has happened is when a car struck a fire hydrant. The hydrant went flying onto the tracks and was subsequently run over by a train. You'd never be able to do it again if you tried.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by CTrainDude

As mentioned, it is VERY rare that any vehicular accident goes over the GM barrier to foul the tracks - although one of my favourites when it has happened is when a car struck a fire hydrant. The hydrant went flying onto the tracks and was subsequently run over by a train. You'd never be able to do it again if you tried.

Did you see that in person?

[CTrainDude]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Did you see that in person?

No, I wasn't there for it, but was driving that day when it happened. I heard it called in on the radio.

[ggopher]

The City is presenting the plan for the 17 Avenue Stampede Crossing (17SX) at the Transportation Committee meeting on Wednesday.

Report to the Transportation and Transit Committee:
1.17 Avenue - Stampede Crossing - TT2019-0506.pdf
2.Attach 1 - TT2019-0506.pdf
3.Attach 2 - TT2019-0506.pdf


The most significant change to the area will be the at-grade crossing which will improve connectivity for all modes of transportation, providing greater accessibility for Calgarians with limited mobility, increased platform capacity and the re-imagining and reconstruction of Victoria Park / Stampede Station. However, the 17SX will introduce new conflict points among pedestrians, vehicles and CTrains; these risks cannot be eliminated, but mitigations will be sought through a Road Safety Audit, appropriate design, safety measures and treatments. During construction, there will be impacts to CTrain service and customer access through station closures, as well as a need for temporary lane closures on northbound Macleod Trail north and south of 17 Ave SE. The crossing will introduce a noticeable impact to vehicle queues and delays on northbound Macleod Trail and eastbound 17 Avenue SE.

Project design will begin with the selection of a prime-design consultant in May 2019 and project completion is expected for Q3 2023.

I think this project will make a huge difference to development along the eastern portion of 17th Avenue and the Stampede grounds. But by changing this crossing to being at grade with no overpasses. They are clearly acknowledging that this will have an impact on traffic, c-train speed, and pedestrian safety.

Another huge plus is this project is being managed by CMLC, they have been doing a great job developing this area.

[ImmortalHawk]

Originally Posted by ggopher

The City is presenting the plan for the 17 Avenue Stampede Crossing (17SX) at the Transportation Committee meeting on Wednesday.



I think this project will make a huge difference to development along the eastern portion of 17th Avenue and the Stampede grounds. But by changing this crossing to being at grade with no overpasses. They are clearly acknowledging that this will have an impact on traffic, c-train speed, and pedestrian safety.

Another huge plus is this project is being managed by CMLC, they have been doing a great job developing this area.

Even though I really like the open concept of the Victoria Park station, it worries me that the pedestrian traffic after a game or event in the Saddledome will cause problems for the traffic on Macleod. It will cause major congestions in the whole area. Not to mention the accidents that could be caused when the station is at-grade. Tbh I like the Victoria Park station, just maybe renovate the station to make it more open, and demolish that ugly pedestrian bridge. Maybe build a new, expanded one? Cuz the spiral stairs and ramp coming down from the bridge are a real sketchy place...

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by ImmortalHawk

Even though I really like the open concept of the Victoria Park station, it worries me that the pedestrian traffic after a game or event in the Saddledome will cause problems for the traffic on Macleod. It will cause major congestions in the whole area. Not to mention the accidents that could be caused when the station is at-grade. Tbh I like the Victoria Park station, just maybe renovate the station to make it more open, and demolish that ugly pedestrian bridge. Maybe build a new, expanded one? Cuz the spiral stairs and ramp coming down from the bridge are a real sketchy place...

I don't disagree with you, however, there are several mitigating factors also.
1. Currently large numbers of cars east-bound on 17th avenue must turn left, however, now I suspect a majority of them will end up continuing east through the newly revitalized area, and then turn north on Olympic Way, which will have many more services and a major hotel added.
2. Some cars going north on MacLeod may now turn right for all of new destinations mentioned above, all the way up to East Village.
3. A vast majority of the pressure on MacLeod Trail northbound is during hours that there will not be pedestrians crossing over the the Stampede Grounds. In the afternoon, the pressure is on MacLeod Trail southbound, not northbound.
4. The pedestrian pathway across MacLeod is on the north of the car intersection, so all volumes from 1 & 2 above will not be effected.
5. The pedestrian pathway across MacLeod is ultra-wide, so movements can happen quickly.
6. A vast majority of the pedestrian traffic, save for specific scenarios like a rare Flames playoff run, will actually be moving between the Stampede grounds and the station itself. Given the tracks are on the east of the road, these larger volumes will not be crossing MacLeod at all. Further, it looks like the pedestrian areas both sides of the train station run for a good distance north, so many crossings may happen to the north of the BMO from the train
7. Even for those post playoff game scenarios, odds are much higher that the red wave (of whatever you want to call it) will shift in large part Olympic Way and the eastern portion of the "new" 17th avenue, only extending till MacLeod - more of a Jurassic Park scenario like in Toronto. This is something that can be "planned" and I suspect will be.
8. The high volume of pedestrians we've previously seen for the Stampede going all the way across has gone down substantially, as the large parking lots between MacLeod north and south have been eliminated.

So all in all, I think what we are currently envisioning is car and pedestrian movements akin to the broader area as we currently see it, however what we really need to be thinking about is car and pedestrian movements how they will be after the full broader revitalization. Those congregation points and destinations will all change.

[ImmortalHawk]

Originally Posted by suburbia

I don't disagree with you, however, there are several mitigating factors also.
1. Currently large numbers of cars east-bound on 17th avenue must turn left, however, now I suspect a majority of them will end up continuing east through the newly revitalized area, and then turn north on Olympic Way, which will have many more services and a major hotel added.
2. Some cars going north on MacLeod may now turn right for all of new destinations mentioned above, all the way up to East Village.
3. A vast majority of the pressure on MacLeod Trail northbound is during hours that there will not be pedestrians crossing over the the Stampede Grounds. In the afternoon, the pressure is on MacLeod Trail southbound, not northbound.
4. The pedestrian pathway across MacLeod is on the north of the car intersection, so all volumes from 1 & 2 above will not be effected.
5. The pedestrian pathway across MacLeod is ultra-wide, so movements can happen quickly.
6. A vast majority of the pedestrian traffic, save for specific scenarios like a rare Flames playoff run, will actually be moving between the Stampede grounds and the station itself. Given the tracks are on the east of the road, these larger volumes will not be crossing MacLeod at all. Further, it looks like the pedestrian areas both sides of the train station run for a good distance north, so many crossings may happen to the north of the BMO from the train
7. Even for those post playoff game scenarios, odds are much higher that the red wave (of whatever you want to call it) will shift in large part Olympic Way and the eastern portion of the "new" 17th avenue, only extending till MacLeod - more of a Jurassic Park scenario like in Toronto. This is something that can be "planned" and I suspect will be.
8. The high volume of pedestrians we've previously seen for the Stampede going all the way across has gone down substantially, as the large parking lots between MacLeod north and south have been eliminated.

So all in all, I think what we are currently envisioning is car and pedestrian movements akin to the broader area as we currently see it, however what we really need to be thinking about is car and pedestrian movements how they will be after the full broader revitalization. Those congregation points and destinations will all change.

Does anyone know the plans for the new 17 avenue configuration if the manage to change Vic Park stampede station? Will that mean they will break down the fence (The boundary of weadickville) and run a road through. So maybe BMO Centre will empty into a pedestrian area in front of the new 17 ave?