Transit Fantasies

[waves]

Sorry, I couldn't remember the max frequency and had just assumed 90 sec. I drew out a schematic to illustrate what I mean with the 75 sec max headway:

[fredinno]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9kGEdcYTPs

This Translink documentary states 90s max frequency...

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9kGEdcYTPs

This Translink documentary states 90s max frequency...

Okay, that's weird...

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by waves

Sorry, I couldn't remember the max frequency and had just assumed 90 sec. I drew out a schematic to illustrate what I mean with the 75 sec max headway:

Interesting point there.
With a North Shore line, the demand between Burrard and waterfront may be reduced (fewer Seabus passengers if it still operates).

Also - as a side note, the Waterfront Station Hub plan has provisions for another platform north of the WCE platform as "Potential Additional Transit Line".

http://former.vancouver.ca/commsvcs/currentplanning/whitecaps/pdf/2009/full%20section.pdf

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Also - as a side note, the Waterfront Station Hub plan has provisions for another platform north of the WCE platform as "Potential Additional Transit Line".

http://former.vancouver.ca/commsvcs/currentplanning/whitecaps/pdf/2009/full%20section.pdf

No shit! I guess they'd go with waves' Option 2 then: Hastings Line to the First Narrows.

[waves]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Also - as a side note, the Waterfront Station Hub plan has provisions for another platform north of the WCE platform as "Potential Additional Transit Line".

That shouldn't affect this schematic since trains would just continue through the existing Waterfront Expo Line Station using the existing center platform. (You don't need to expand the station or add new platforms).

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Okay, that's weird...

The documentary I have is from the 80s. I'm assuming they were able to cut an extra 15s due to better automation tech- but I'd honestly still give myself an extra 15s to work with to account for potential delays.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

No shit! I guess they'd go with waves' Option 2 then: Hastings Line to the First Narrows.

That looked like an extra commuter-rail line area to me, not Skytrain. How would Skytrain get across the WCE tracks?

Originally Posted by waves

That shouldn't affect this schematic since trains would just continue through the existing Waterfront Expo Line Station using the existing center platform. (You don't need to expand the station or add new platforms).

It's still not as flexible as just taking the L and adding another line.

I don't see the point to having everything split off the Expo. It's sacrificing maximum frequency and capacity for... what, exactly? It's a strange decision considering the Expo is supposed to be the spine of the Skytrain...

I know I'm pretty critical of your plans so far, but its just a sign of how interesting it is, don't worry.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

That looked like an extra commuter-rail line area to me, not Skytrain. How would Skytrain get across the WCE tracks?

Doesn't have to. When cross-referenced with Google Maps, it would seem that the hypothetical line would expropriate the freight track directly adjacent to the WCE, underneath the parkade; the Hastings Line is going to be mostly underground, so all it'd need to do is tunnel under the rail bed and surface at the platform. I suspect that the bigger problem is the western end, having to share part of the Duinsmuir Tunnel with the Expo.

[waves]

Originally Posted by fredinno

It's sacrificing maximum frequency and capacity

The schematic shows that it does not sacrifice maximum frequency and capacity.

Also Hastings Line as I have drawn it is not a spur - it's just a continuation of the existing line (Just like King George in Surrey won't be the terminus anymore when the Expo Line gets extended to Surrey).

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by waves

The schematic shows that it does not sacrifice maximum frequency and capacity.

Also Hastings Line as I have drawn it is not a spur - it's just a continuation of the existing line (Just like King George in Surrey won't be the terminus anymore when the Expo Line gets extended to Surrey).

Sorry about the Hastings.






1/6th the trains are being shorted to Lonsdale at the busiest section of the Expo. This is less of a problem now, but considering the plan goes up to 2070, this alone would effectively limit max Expo Line capacity from 25,000 pphd to ~20,900 pphd. Skytrains at Main St would likely be overcapacity.

Also, you haven't shown exactly why you should have such a complex arrangement of Expo Line tracks.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by waves

The schematic shows that it does not sacrifice maximum frequency and capacity.

But maximum frequency/capacity is 75 second headways in all directions (save Production-SFU); that can be achieved with a second SkyTrain line, but not with three Expo branches.

[jollyburger]

Unless ship traffic gets crazy or you reach some threshold where docking/unloading becomes problematic, I don't see the incentive for Translink to dump SeaBus for a SkyTrain link to the North Shore.

And that future transit line platform from the document just seems to be another platform for WCE (you can see a cross section with the same vehicle dimensions for WCE and tracks tying into the railway)

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

Unless ship traffic gets crazy or you reach some threshold where docking/unloading becomes problematic, I don't see the incentive for Translink to dump SeaBus for a SkyTrain link to the North Shore.

And that future transit line platform from the document just seems to be another platform for WCE (you can see a cross section with the same vehicle dimensions for WCE and tracks tying into the railway)

It was basically meant to make North Van more accessible, and more quick to access by rapid transit.

Seabus takes 10-12 minutes to get across the inlet, Skytrain 4-5 minutes.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

Unless ship traffic gets crazy or you reach some threshold where docking/unloading becomes problematic, I don't see the incentive for Translink to dump SeaBus for a SkyTrain link to the North Shore.

If there was ever a Skytrain connection that connected the North Shore to somewhere near the core, then the seabus would become a hell of a liability.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by scryer

If there was ever a Skytrain connection that connected the North Shore to somewhere near the core, then the seabus would become a hell of a liability.

Waterfront-Lonsdale maybe (and even then there's still be a few riders), but there's no reason TransLink can't set up the Waterfront-Ambleside route they're always proposing.

[waves]

Originally Posted by fredinno

..

Quoting myself:

Originally Posted by waves

CB now has the third platform which would allow it to have that flexibility for trains to turn back to the North Shore at CB.

If we look at the graph, we can see the modeled on/off with the Langley extension. If you tally up all the alightings up to and including CB that number is 15371. After CB is 15366. 50% of all riders travelling on the Expo Line are not going past CB - So if you were to take 20% of the line and split it to North Van would that cause problems with capacity for downtown? According to these numbers at least, my thoughts are that it wont.

If we are concerned however about maintaining the full capacity from CB to Burrard, you can make a small change to the schematic and do just that. 5 of 6 trains from go from Langley to Burrard, 1 from Langley to North Shore, and 1 from Commercial Broadway to Burrard (which would be highly valuable considering that 4000 people need to board at CB alone). This wouldn't be possible without the third platform at CB.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

But maximum frequency/capacity is 75 second headways in all directions (save Production-SFU); that can be achieved with a second SkyTrain line, but not with three Expo branches.

The schematic above shows the capability for maximum frequency/capacity of 75 second headways in the following directions:

- Langley Centre to Scott Road
- Columbia to CB [current]
- CB to Burrard [current]
- Hastings-Willingdon to Waterfront

What more needs to be at 75?

Originally Posted by jollyburger

I don't see the incentive for Translink to dump SeaBus for a SkyTrain link to the North Shore.

For every seabus that Translink runs across the inlet, they could potentially run 5 buses round trip across the Lions Gate. The Seabus is very expensive to operate and having a Skytrain line would drastically reduce our systems reliance on the Seabus and thus, they could go back to having two Seabuses with 30min frequency (or even one Seabus).

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by waves

Quoting myself:

For every seabus that Translink runs across the inlet, they could potentially run 5 buses round trip across the Lions Gate. The Seabus is very expensive to operate and having a Skytrain line would drastically reduce our systems reliance on the Seabus and thus, they could go back to having two Seabuses with 30min frequency (or even one Seabus).

In 2017:

SeaBus
One-way route length: 3.2 km
Average speed: 21.3 km/hr
Total annual boardings: 6,343,000
Average weekday boardings: 18,740
Average Saturday boardings: 16,300
Average Sunday/holiday boardings: 12,890
Average boardings per hour: 525
Average passenger load: 126
Average peak load factor: 33%
Annual operating cost: $9,719,000
Cost per boarded passenger: $1.53

But once the zone changes it will be interesting to see how the weekday boardings change.

[jollyburger]

And it's fairly simplistic even for a fantasy to say you can just replace XXX service based on passenger count but spending no attention to road capacities, how passengers moving through a dedicate transit hub versus being dumped onto West Georgia Street.

If anything, SeaBus does a better job at siphoning traffic that would go onto Lions Gate and the Second Narrows providing better service for the parts of the North Shore that are far from the Quay.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by waves

The schematic above shows the capability for maximum frequency/capacity of 75 second headways in the following directions:

- Langley Centre to Scott Road
- Columbia to CB [current]
- CB to Burrard [current]
- Hastings-Willingdon to Waterfront

What more needs to be at 75?

The two Burrard Inlet routes? Both would be at 2018 Canada Line levels of frequency; having at least one at Expo/Millennium level (or at least as an option in the future) would go a long way toward future-proofing North Shore transit.

Originally Posted by jollyburger

And it's fairly simplistic even for a fantasy to say you can just replace XXX service based on passenger count but spending no attention to road capacities, how passengers moving through a dedicate transit hub versus being dumped onto West Georgia Street.

If anything, SeaBus does a better job at siphoning traffic that would go onto Lions Gate and the Second Narrows providing better service for the parts of the North Shore that are far from the Quay.

Sorry, what? SkyTrain would remove many times more drivers from the road than SeaBus, all the new lines would have grade-separated connections, and the "dumping" would be spread out from Denman to Commercial, not just the CBD; that seems like an overall reduction in gridlock from where I'm standing.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The two Burrard Inlet routes? Both would be at 2018 Canada Line levels of frequency; having at least one at Expo/Millennium level (or at least as an option in the future) would go a long way toward future-proofing North Shore transit.

Is there a way that Lonsdale could become a '3rd downtown', cutting down dependency on the CBD (and thus transportation needs?)

It seems only logical to try to cut down the # of trans-inlet trips as much as possible(and transportation in general, considering the geography and NIMBYism), though Lonsdale is already partially built up with condos.

It would probably also suck out a lot of office-building energy out of the other downtowns.

Sorry, what? SkyTrain would remove many times more drivers from the road than SeaBus, all the new lines would have grade-separated connections, and the "dumping" would be spread out from Denman to Commercial, not just the CBD; that seems like an overall reduction in gridlock from where I'm standing.

TBH, the vast majority of trips from the North Shore end in the CBD.

The Lonsdale Line route take 4.25min from Waterfront to Commerical-Hastings, then 2.3 min across the inlet, plus transfers to the Hastings Line (say, 1 min avg wait). However, that's still way better than the Seabus time of 10-12 minutes crossing+ up to 15 min wait times.