Transit Fantasies

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Don't forget Commercial and the two Surrey lines.

I'm really not seeing the need for either - Main and Fraser would be fine with just more bus service. Kingsway maybe, but only after the Willingdon and Commercial SkyTrains are finished, and the Expo and #19 are completely balls-to-the-wall packed.

The Expo Line is 2-branched at Surrey...

The lack of Guildford redevelopment, as a resident of N. Langley, saddens me.

Originally Posted by Bdawe

I I agree the light rail lines as more fantastical than other lines.

I think the main point I wanted to make was that the North Shore could possibly be served by redirecting the Expo Line, with Waterfront being taken over by hastings, and that the Production Way branch could be through-routed to the Marpole interuban (and in this imagining, wired up for lrvs rather than grade separtated) in order to create more branching opportunities in Surrey, and that Burnaby Mountain isn't quite as steep as I had thought it was

I'd argue that Kingsway should be done before the skytrain can handle no more, as improved Kingsway service would take pressure off of the most congested section of the Expo Line and reduce the capacity demand imbalance along that the whole line.

How would you move the Expo to the North Shore? Break a hole in the current Dunsmuir Tunnel? Has something like that been done before on a currently-running SkyTrain Line?


On a side note, I know this isn't related, but would it be practical to build a Skytrain Station at Royal?

I want to have another New Westminister Skytrain Station, at approximately the intersection of Royal Ace and Columbia St in front of a strip mall and the riverside condos, on the Expo. I know Skytrain on Stewardston was ruled out due to too many curves, but here it seems to be both (approximately) level and lack any curves for 80m.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by fredinno

The Expo Line is 2-branched at Surrey...

The lack of Guildford redevelopment, as a resident of N. Langley, saddens me.



How would you move the Expo to the North Shore? Break a hole in the current Dunsmuir Tunnel? Has something like that been done before on a currently-running SkyTrain Line?

Because the the dunsmuir tunnel is stacked, I suspect you could tunnel up to the wall and then punch through during a *relatively* brief closure without having to construct some big underground flying junction

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

Because the the dunsmuir tunnel is stacked, I suspect you could tunnel up to the wall and then punch through during a *relatively* brief closure without having to construct some big underground flying junction

Hopefully, the Commerical & Hastings line are operational before then.

Otherwise, bus traffic in downtown is going to be a nightmare.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by fredinno

On a side note, I know this isn't related, but would it be practical to build a Skytrain Station at Royal?

I want to have another New Westminister Skytrain Station, at approximately the intersection of Royal Ace and Columbia St in front of a strip mall and the riverside condos, on the Expo. I know Skytrain on Stewardston was ruled out due to too many curves, but here it seems to be both (approximately) level and lack any curves for 80m.

It totally wouldn't be practical to build a station at Columbia and Royal - it would be as close to New West Station as Columbia is. There are nowhere near enough people taking the train in New West to warrant it. The only additional station that's been considered (and isn't on their radar - I've asked them) is the planned for Woodlands Station at the bottom of McBride.

[Unregistered User]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

I made a thing https://drive.google.com/open?id=1WKoFUcwF6Vl7g38OzuytCPXzl-In6Byw&usp=sharing

Was the Hastings Line/Expo-West Line influenced at all by my post #1459 or do great mind just think alike? Or maybe this idea been floating around for awhile.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Sheba

It totally wouldn't be practical to build a station at Columbia and Royal - it would be as close to New West Station as Columbia is. There are nowhere near enough people taking the train in New West to warrant it. The only additional station that's been considered (and isn't on their radar - I've asked them) is the planned for Woodlands Station at the bottom of McBride.

The redevelopment potential is pretty high for New West, though, which was the big idea. I did see that problem going in.

The area around 13th street is the last place in West New West where the Expo is not sloped... Are there any Curved metro stations out there? It's not entirely on a curve- but it can't fit a 80m max-length platform without adding a curved station section.

I would imagine the engineering and cost challenges would pretty much guarantee it only gets built after the current New Westminister Stations fill out.

[waves]

Originally Posted by fredinno

The redevelopment potential is pretty high for New West, though, which was the big idea. I did see that problem going in.

The area around 13th street is the last place in West New West where the Expo is not sloped... Are there any Curved metro stations out there? It's not entirely on a curve- but it can't fit a 80m max-length platform without adding a curved station section.

I would imagine the engineering and cost challenges would pretty much guarantee it only gets built after the current New Westminister Stations fill out.

New York has one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Hall_(IRT_Lexington_Avenue_Line)

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by fredinno

The redevelopment potential is pretty high for New West, though, which was the big idea. I did see that problem going in.

The area around 13th street is the last place in West New West where the Expo is not sloped... Are there any Curved metro stations out there? It's not entirely on a curve- but it can't fit a 80m max-length platform without adding a curved station section.

I would imagine the engineering and cost challenges would pretty much guarantee it only gets built after the current New Westminister Stations fill out.

The only real gap in New West Skytrain coverage is where the Woodlands station would be - if they ever get around to building it. The area that Mayor Cote has talked about redeveloping is right by 22nd St Station.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by waves

New York has one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Hall_(IRT_Lexington_Avenue_Line)

Cool, thanks.

Though I guess the cost-benefit ratio, as the Wikipedia article itself states, favors straight stations.

Originally Posted by Sheba

The only real gap in New West Skytrain coverage is where the Woodlands station would be - if they ever get around to building it. The area that Mayor Cote has talked about redeveloping is right by 22nd St Station.

No, I was talking about long-term redevelopments, for the (5th? Redesign of my 2040 (now 2050) Vancouver Map). This IS a transit fantasy thread, after all.

The idea is, after the current town centres are filled out, new areas with generally shorter heights will likely be developed out (say 2030-40, depending on buildout rate). Woodlands, for example, might become a secondary centre to the Town Centre of New West. The foot of the BMG at Production Way could be another 'Secondary Centre' of Lougheed (and SFU), etc. etc.

So could a secondary centre be built @ Stewardston, if a station was built there, due to nearby redevelopment potential from the large number of strip malls and low-density commercial. (22nd st is mostly SOF, and Sapperton has a hospital on one side that limits redevelopment land.)


Those strip malls are (hopefully) not going to stick around forever.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by Unregistered User

Was the Hastings Line/Expo-West Line influenced at all by my post #1459 or do great mind just think alike? Or maybe this idea been floating around for awhile.

I wasn't thinking of that in particular, but It's entirely possible that I saw your post and forgot about where that idea came from in the intervening.

But yours is a very aesthetically pleasing map

[waves]

What does Metro Van look like to you in 2068?

See more details via my map on MapHub (I got frustrated with Google MyMaps). Zoom in, see all the station names, turn lines on/off, download for youself to play with.




See full size imagine here:https://i.imgur.com/z3NapIs.png

[Tetsuo]

I can get behind that Serpentine Line ! Great East-West link

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by waves

What does Metro Van look like to you in 2068?

See more details via my map on MapHub (I got frustrated with Google MyMaps). Zoom in, see all the station names, turn lines on/off, download for youself to play with.




See full size imagine here:https://i.imgur.com/z3NapIs.png

A Sea to Sky Line, and Skytrain to Abbotsford, but nothing for Arbutus or Willoughby? Wouldn't it make more sense to try to connect Metro's Secondary town Centres as possible before expanding Skytrain to the satellite cities?

Skytrain has a max speed of 80km/h, something to keep in mind, as this is one of its major weaknesses vs commuter rail for the satellite cities.


Also, why does the Surrey Line go down 152nd (other than being unique?) Just curious.

One thing's for sure, I've never quite seen anything like it. +10 cool points.

[waves]

Originally Posted by fredinno

A Sea to Sky Line, and Skytrain to Abbotsford, but nothing for Arbutus or Willoughby? Wouldn't it make more sense to try to connect Metro's Secondary town Centres as possible before expanding Skytrain to the satellite cities?

I disagree that Arbutus needs rapid transit. Canada Line is 2.7km away at most. Other regional priorities in my opinion are more important. Also Willoughby is devoid of people right now. Very few people live between Langley City Center Area and Walnut Grove. Bus Service will be fine. Maybe you will see the Serpentine Line do a split and have an arm continue up to Pitt Meadows eventually.

Skytrain has a max speed of 80km/h, something to keep in mind, as this is one of its major weaknesses vs commuter rail for the satellite cities.

Skytrain top speed is 90km/h. Canada Line 80km/h (and could probably be made faster if we asked). That's plenty fast. Also Serpentine is Commuter LRT (DSU, EMU or Aventura 345), and Sea to Sky is Commuter ALRT (Hyundai Rotem with some mods to go faster, have more comfy seats, be 6 car trains, wiki, usb plugs).

Also, why does the Surrey Line go down 152nd (other than being unique?) Just curious.

Its a simpler and shorter alignment which means it will be cheaper. It will also be less disruptive to build. Once it gets on 152nd in can point straight down to it's termination at Semaihmoo Mall.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by waves

I disagree that Arbutus needs rapid transit. Canada Line is 2.7km away at most. Other regional priorities in my opinion are more important. Also Willoughby is devoid of people right now. Very few people live between Langley City Center Area and Walnut Grove. Bus Service will be fine. Maybe you will see the Serpentine Line do a split and have an arm continue up to Pitt Meadows eventually.



Skytrain top speed is 90km/h. Canada Line 80km/h (and could probably be made faster if we asked). That's plenty fast. Also Serpentine is Commuter LRT (DSU, EMU or Aventura 345), and Sea to Sky is Commuter ALRT (Hyundai Rotem with some mods to go faster, have more comfy seats, be 6 car trains, wiki, usb plugs).



Its a simpler and shorter alignment which means it will be cheaper. It will also be less disruptive to build. Once it gets on 152nd in can point straight down to it's termination at Semaihmoo Mall.

I can get Artubutus (it's more since the ROW makes it relatively cheap to upgrade from LRT to Skytrain), but Willoughby? This goes to 2070, Willoughby is already built out, or being built out, more dense than the L-line corridor on most of 208th.


And that doesn't account for Walnut Grove/North Willoughby T. Centre either, and the fact that it could be a north-south extension to Maple Ridge. You have to keep in mind future population patterns, which is why I made a development map on top of my master plan (even though it made it cluttered- I'm going to separate it into two maps for the next version).

Skytrain top speed is 90km/h. Canada Line 80km/h (and could probably be made faster if we asked). That's plenty fast. Also Serpentine is Commuter LRT (DSU, EMU or Aventura 345), and Sea to Sky is Commuter ALRT (Hyundai Rotem with some mods to go faster, have more comfy seats, be 6 car trains, wiki, usb plugs).

Hyundai Rotem plus modifications is a modified Canada Line. Still 80-90 km/h max speed, with stations serving the far-out suburban communities of Britannia Beach and Lions Bay, each with highly limited room to expand due to being on difficult, rugged slopes (except Squamish). And you say Willoughby wasn't good enough for Skytrain?


57 km/80km/h x60min/h +((1min/stop+ slowdown time)x10)= 52 minutes to get from Squamish to Taylor Way. Right now, it takes 45 min to drive from Taylor Way to Squamish. Getting Skytrain up to 100km/h somehow still gets you to around 45 min, so it will provide low benefits compared to just using buses.

Also, Lions Bay to Horseshoe Bay is literally the least used bus route in the entire system. It doesn't destroy the rationale of transit to Squamish, but there's not much demand in between.

http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/translink-2017-ridership-statistics-part-2


The advantages of light-metro go out the window at these sorts of long distances, because their main advantage of avoiding congestion goes out the window: 80km/h is the average speed limit of Sea-to-Sky- and cars don't need to stop at bus stops.

I'd just go by buses.


I'm sorry for being harsh, but I need to get this out. I can accept everything, but the Sea-to-sky. I get that the Upper Levels can't handle much highway growth, but Skytrain to Squamish just isn't worth the multi-billion dollar cost it would entail- but even that's challenging, as it's single-tracked.

Its a simpler and shorter alignment which means it will be cheaper. It will also be less disruptive to build. Once it gets on 152nd in can point straight down to it's termination at Semaihmoo Mall.

King George is ~7.9km, 152nd St is ~8.1 km. Plus, 152nd st skips the S. Surrey Park and Ride.

[waves]

Originally Posted by fredinno

I can get Artubutus (it's more since the ROW makes it relatively cheap to upgrade from LRT to Skytrain), but Willoughby? This goes to 2070, Willoughby is already built out, or being built out, more dense than the L-line corridor on most of 208th.

And that doesn't account for Walnut Grove/North Willoughby T. Centre either, and the fact that it could be a north-south extension to Maple Ridge. You have to keep in mind future population patterns, which is why I made a development map on top of my master plan (even though it made it cluttered- I'm going to separate it into two maps for the next version).

I am aware of the increase in population planned for Willoughby. I still don't think that justifies it getting its own North South Line in the next 50 years. Also just because my map doesn't happen to have the population growth underneath it doesn't mean I haven't looked at it.

Hyundai Rotem plus modifications is a modified Canada Line. Still 80-90 km/h max speed, with stations serving the far-out suburban communities of Britannia Beach and Lions Bay, each with highly limited room to expand due to being on difficult, rugged slopes (except Squamish). And you say Willoughby wasn't good enough for Skytrain? Also, Lions Bay to Horseshoe Bay is literally the least used bus route in the entire system. It doesn't destroy the rationale of transit to Squamish, but there's not much demand in between.

No it's not. You misunderstand that the main purpose is too connect Squamish to HB to Vancouver, not the smaller communities who might happen to benefit along the way. The demand in between is irrelevant. Second, 120km/h or higher max speed, 6 car Hyundai Rotem train at 15-30min frequency.

57 km/80km/h x60min/h +((1min/stop+ slowdown time)x10)= 52 minutes to get from Squamish to Taylor Way. Right now, it takes 45 min to drive from Taylor Way to Squamish. Getting Skytrain up to 100km/h somehow still gets you to around 45 min, so it will provide low benefits compared to just using buses.

The advantages of light-metro go out the window at these sorts of long distances, because their main advantage of avoiding congestion goes out the window: 80km/h is the average speed limit of Sea-to-Sky- and cars don't need to stop at bus stops.

I'd just go by buses.

If you are interested in the calculations I have done them here for you: https://1drv.ms/x/s!AjWWltw_HSwzh9QjMkEESc-yRT2pZw

With all the stops I have listed at 120km/hr max speed travel time is 35min assuming 30 sec stopping time at stations (1min is excessive). Take away 5 stations and you decrease the travel time to 30min.

I'm sorry for being harsh, but I need to get this out. I can accept everything, but the Sea-to-sky. I get that the Upper Levels can't handle much highway growth, but Skytrain to Squamish just isn't worth the multi-billion dollar cost it would entail- but even that's challenging, as it's single-tracked.

You are completely off on cost. Just don't renew CN's lease on the railway in 2060 and you already have your right of way ready to go. 15min frequency with 30min end to end means 4 trains, so you only need double tracking at 3 spots along the line. And there are double tracking spots along the line already. It's arguably one of the cheapest lines to implement. I bet you could do it for under $1b.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by waves

I am aware of the increase in population planned for Willoughby. I still don't think that justifies it getting its own North South Line in the next 50 years. Also just because my map doesn't happen to have the population growth underneath it doesn't mean I haven't looked at it.

... Walnut Grove ALONE has more people than the entirety of Squamish.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walnut_Grove,_Langley
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squamish,_British_Columbia

And Willoughby is larger than Walnut Grove both in land area and population size- and a line up 200 St would support North Clayton and possibly Maple Ridge as well, with extensions. All of which are going to get to medium-density in the (relatively) near future.

Oh yeah, that's unjustifiable, but a line up to Squamish is?

Is Squamish going to quintuple in population?

No it's not. You misunderstand that the main purpose is too connect Squamish to HB to Vancouver, not the smaller communities who might happen to benefit along the way. The demand in between is irrelevant. Second, 120km/h or higher max speed, 6 car Hyundai Rotem train at 15-30min frequency.

How did modify the trains to get 120km/h max speed? And even if you do, it's still iffy, for the population reason I pointed out above.

4000 people/year is 109x less than the least-used Skytrain Station, Lake City Way.
(excluding Sea City Centre, because YVR uses Skytrain to move between its parts, and thus does not have to justify its costs as much.)

At those rates, you wouldn't make enough money to keep the lights on.


The Sea-to-Sky Line would have difficulty finding people to use the stations even on the section on the Upper Levels- the densities on the Cypress Hills are unlikely to get higher than SFH, as the entire area is owned by the British Properties.

If you are interested in the calculations I have done them here for you: https://1drv.ms/x/s!AjWWltw_HSwzh9QjMkEESc-yRT2pZw

With all the stops I have listed at 120km/hr max speed travel time is 35min assuming 30 sec stopping time at stations (1min is excessive). Take away 5 stations and you decrease the travel time to 30min.

1 min plus slow-down time. It's excessive, but I did that because I was using very back of the envelope calculations.

You are completely off on cost. Just don't renew CN's lease on the railway in 2060 and you already have your right of way ready to go. 15min frequency with 30min end to end means 4 trains, so you only need double tracking at 3 spots along the line. And there are double tracking spots along the line already. It's arguably one of the cheapest lines to implement. I bet you could do it for under $1b.

Uhh, sure, it's not like you have to provide power to those trains or anything along the entire route.

[waves]

Fredinno, you are being rude; its not becoming of you.

Travel on the S2S is over 20,000 AADT typically and has been growing about 1% annually. Again you miss the point that the service is a regional connector. The stops in between are irrelevant.

Also, if you took more than 10 second to inspect the spreadsheet you would have seen the calculations actually include acceleration.

There is nothing strange about getting a 120kph capable electric engine. Many trains run much higher than 120. Maybe you missed my comment that they are envisioned as "modified" Hyundai Rotem like trains.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by waves

Travel on the S2S is over 20,000 AADT typically and has been growing about 1% annually. Again you miss the point that the service is a regional connector. The stops in between are irrelevant.

Sure, but even if the Rotems grab 50% mode share (highly doubtful), that's still almost 2040 before we get B-Line levels of ridership, and 2050 before we get to the present-day Canada Line. The national average is 30%.

I'm guessing an S2S Line would come with a couple more freeway lanes attached, so maybe just stick a high-capacity tram down the median, elevated at HB and Squamish?

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by waves

Fredinno, you are being rude; its not becoming of you.

Travel on the S2S is over 20,000 AADT typically and has been growing about 1% annually. Again you miss the point that the service is a regional connector. The stops in between are irrelevant.

Also, if you took more than 10 second to inspect the spreadsheet you would have seen the calculations actually include acceleration.

There is nothing strange about getting a 120kph capable electric engine. Many trains run much higher than 120. Maybe you missed my comment that they are envisioned as "modified" Hyundai Rotem like trains.

[QUOTE=waves;8403713]Fredinno, you are being rude; its not becoming of you.

Travel on the S2S is over 20,000 AADT typically and has been growing about 1% annually. Again you miss the point that the service is a regional connector. The stops in between are irrelevant.

Also, if you took more than 10 second to inspect the spreadshee