Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[Cypherus]

This is the ideal way of having grade separated rapid transit. Minimal footprint, expedited service, and no disruption to goods movers, buses, and local traffic. Note, however, that there is no sense of livable community being created on that corridor. It looks sterile.



So I don't think anyone disagrees that some form of LRT is needed for Surrey, but if the LRT was grade separated (and not necessarily elevated) while achieving the benefits of creating a livable community along the corridor, then I think everyone would come to a happy agreement.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by Cypherus

This is the ideal way of having grade separated rapid transit. Minimal footprint, expedited service, and no disruption to goods movers, buses, and local traffic. Note, however, that there is no sense of livable community being created on that corridor. It looks sterile.



So I don't think anyone disagrees that some form of LRT is needed for Surrey, but if the LRT was grade separated (and not necessarily elevated) while achieving the benefits of creating a livable community along the corridor, then I think everyone would come to a happy agreement.

If you don't want sterile on Lougheed Highway then you need to be able to accept changing lougheed highway from a highway into a street. And that would mean adding crossings, slowing down traffic, permitting more street-fronting usages and the rest.

it's not that the viaduct created the current condition, but rather that there has not been a desire to change it.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

I love how instead of presenting an argument things just descend to out and out mindless bashing....

Well maybe if people would look through what's been posted on here in the past they'd discover that their new amazing ideas have been discussed before (generally multiple times) and any benefits / flaws have been debated to death.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

If you don't want sterile on Lougheed Highway then you need to be able to accept changing lougheed highway from a highway into a street. And that would mean adding crossings, slowing down traffic, permitting more street-fronting usages and the rest.

it's not that the viaduct created the current condition, but rather that there has not been a desire to change it.

Exactly - they built a Skytrain line along a highway. That's not generally the kind of road people want their house fronting onto.

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Cypherus

Note, however, that there is no sense of livable community being created on that corridor. It looks sterile.

that is a highway, and was a highway, long before SkyTrain was there. way to leave out that facts. IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE STERILE SINCE IT IS A HIGHWAY AND BUILT AS A HIGHWAY AND MEANT TO BE A HIGHWAY.

i hate when people pull stunts like this. talk about misleading people. leaving out most of the facts that would put that photo of yours into its context and your own evidence leading to refuting your own statement.

here is a LRT at street level.

source

and another!

source

and here is a non-highway portion with a station and guideway.


and another!

P.S. this is the same road that you posted :O *gasp* amazing what a difference in planning can do around a SkyTrain guide-way when the road is meant as a road, and NOT a free-flowing, fast highway.

if you want more, go take a look at the threads about Richmond on this forum and see what is being built down No. 3 Rd.

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[Cypherus]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

that is a highway, and was a highway, long before SkyTrain was there. way to leave out that facts. IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE STERILE SINCE IT IS A HIGHWAY AND BUILT AS A HIGHWAY AND MEANT TO BE A HIGHWAY.

That is the point, genius. That is exactly what the City of Surrey likely wants to oppose along the King George "Highway" or "Boulevard" via LRT instead. The suggestion that LRT will have more stops and influence more development along the corridor is my point. As well, the fact that you show the Brentwood station down the road doesn't really mean anything, because skytrain has always created isolated nodes of density around the stations, which the city of Surrey thinks LRT will do more of with more stations along the network.

i hate when people pull stunts like this.

Nice strawman. You really didn't read my post that argues there are two sides of the coin (LRT versus RRT). I clearly stated RRT is better for grade separated rapid transit. I am not making a claim LRT is better; people know that I oppose it as it is not grade separated in high traffic areas such as Central City! I already wrote to the City of Surrey about my displeasure.

All I am stating that it is an obvious fact that the Lougheed Hwy skytrain corridor is sterile because RRT simply creates density at the stations only, leaving everything else along the way to be stagnated. We have a good business case that RRT does not galvanize change along its corridors unless there is a station that influences density. It's obvious developers will not build a condo if it is too far away from the station. On the other hand, the city of Surrey suggests LRT will create more livable communities along its LRT corridors because it will have more stations and more opportunities for streamlined development along the way. All told, I am suggesting there is two sides to the argument to LRT and RRT. Talk about misleading people with your post which suggests I am pro LRT all while you simply insert your knee jerk reaction posting pointless photos while massaging your ego with "hahahaha" commentary....that is the type of people's opinions that I do not respect anyway....

[casper]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Exactly - they built a Skytrain line along a highway. That's not generally the kind of road people want their house fronting onto.

I actually like what is happening along that stretch. You have town centers at the major stations and both rapid transit and a highway linking the town centers together. The area between the town centres have limited access Highway and traffic moving at a fairly good speed. There is also a ground level based rail corridor that mostly parallels the highway, used for inter-city passenger and freight.

If you tried to do the same thing with an at grade train it would just use up more space.

[Trainguy]

From railway-technology.com

I am not sure where they got all their info from but it is not all correct.

3 March 2018
Surrey Light Rail Transit
Vancouver British Columbia - Surrey Light Rail Transit (LRT) is a new light rail network proposed to be constructed in Surrey, British Columbia, Canada.

To be developed in two phases, the 27 kilometre long LRT will have the capacity to cater to the needs of local commuters over the next 30 years.

The first phase of the project will involve the construction of a 10.5 kilometre long section between Newton, Surrey Central Station, and Guildford, while the second phase will extend the line from Surrey to Langley Centre.

Construction of the phase one is expected to start in 2018.

The project is a part of the ten-year Translink investment plan to meet long-term ridership demand until 2045.

Surrey LRT Phase One Details

Phase one of Surrey LRT will be 10.5 kilometre long line, which will start at the Newton Transit Exchange and continue to Surrey City Centre through King George Boulevard, and then along 104 Avenue and 102 Avenue before terminating at the Guildford Transit Exchange.

The LRT guideways will be built along the centre of 104 Avenue and King George Boulevard.

They will include two at-grade LRT tracks, which will be approximately 7.9 metres wide.

The line will feature 11 stops, seven of which will be regular LRT stops, and the remaining will be connected to transit exchanges.

Surrey LRT Phase Two Details

Phase two of the LRT line will be laid between King George Station and Langley City, along Fraser Highway.

It will be 16 kilometres long with eight LRT stops, connecting from Surrey Central to Langley Centre with a short elevated segment over the Langley Bypass and Canadian Pacific rail Corridor.

Surrey LRT Infrastructure

The project will involve the development of major infrastructure, including LRT alignment and guideways, LRT stops, an operation and maintenance facility (OMF), as well as power, control, and communication systems.

The platforms will initially be 40 metres long and can be extended up to 60 metres.

The side platforms will be up to 4 metres wide, while the centre platforms will have a maximum width of 7.2 metres.

The OMF will be situated in Newton and include a control and administration building, a maintenance building, traction power substation, operator's facility, service pits, and yard track.

The LRT stops will be designed with minimal footprint and feature wind/rain shelters, lighting, surveillance systems, emergency call boxes, and real-time way finding information systems.

Rolling Stock

A fleet of articulated single unit vehicles is planned to be introduced on the LRT system.

Each 30 metres long vehicle will have the capacity to carry more than 200 passengers.

The LRT vehicles will be powered by direct current (DC) motors fed by an overhead catenary system, which will be supplied from eight substations of 1 MW each, connected to the BC Hydro distribution system.

The LRT service with headway of five minutes is expected to be replace 96 B-Line transit services.

It will cover the 10.5 kilometres distance between Newton and Guildford terminals in approximately 27 minutes.

Benefits of Surrey Light Rail

The light rail project is expected to reduce congestion, increase transit network capacity, and protect the environment while improving connectivity along major routes in the city.

The project is expected to create 3,500 direct jobs and 2,000 indirect jobs.

It is also anticipated to support the creation of highly-skilled jobs in the fields of education, technology, and health services.

Contractors Involved

McElhanney Consulting Services and Stewart Group Strategic Consulting were contracted to provide advisory services for the project.

WestPro was awarded a $5 million contract to replace the existing Bear Creek Bridge.

The contract included the demolition of the existing bridge, installation of piles and deck, road widening, and associated improvements.

Construction began in January 2018 and is expected to take approximately ten months to complete.

Author unknown.

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Cypherus

That is the point, genius. That is exactly what the City of Surrey likely wants to oppose along the King George "Highway" or "Boulevard" via LRT instead. The suggestion that LRT will have more stops and influence more development along the corridor is my point. As well, the fact that you show the Brentwood station down the road doesn't really mean anything, because skytrain has always created isolated nodes of density around the stations, which the city of Surrey thinks LRT will do more of with more stations along the network.

because SkyTrain is down the Lougheed, that is not what made that highway what it is. just because SkyTrain is down it, that has nothing to do with "that is what Surrey wants to prevent." what causes that is zoning and land use plans. look at the Expo-Line. they created a parkway connected to many parks. it all depends on land use. just because there is a SkyTrain guide way, that doesn't mean ut will become some highway with a jersey barrier. that is the type of road it is because of zoning, not SkyTrain.

Originally Posted by Cypherus

All I am stating that it is an obvious fact that the Lougheed Hwy skytrain corridor is sterile because RRT simply creates density at the stations only, leaving everything else along the way to be stagnated. We have a good business case that RRT does not galvanize change along its corridors unless there is a station that influences density. It's obvious developers will not build a condo if it is too far away from the station. On the other hand, the city of Surrey suggests LRT will create more livable communities along its LRT corridors because it will have more stations and more opportunities for streamlined development along the way. All told, I am suggesting there is two sides to the argument to LRT and RRT.

SkyTrain down Fraser Highway is not what will make or break that road. if it is LRT or SkyTrain (this is meaning SkyTrain is grade-separated Vs. LRT which will be considered at-grade) the reality is that the zoning of that land around the road is what will make or break it. transportation corridors are meant to be that, for moving people. transit decisions shouldn't be made based on the fact that "well, it sucks at moving people, but itll allow developers to make more money." that is not how you move people.

that fact is, if Fraser Highway ever goes anything but what integrates into the current system, then it will be a terrible transportation decision. on-top of that, how many stations to people want? the current standard is ~ to have stations overlapping so that people are ~ within 400/500m walk of a station. are stations going to start being half the distance? now you're taking a transportation corridor that connects 2 communities and putting in a local service vs an express service. if you want that, do that Cambie has. SkyTrain with station every ~1km apart and then a local bus service. wasting the same amount of money on what is basically a local bus is ludicrous.

the only way i would ever support that is if the City of Surrey does it themselves without using my tax dollars. then they can go and do whatever the hell they want since they are wasting my money that should be used for sound transportation decisions; not development decisions causing problems for transportation for the next 30 years.

and the fallacy of how "LRT will integrate" is false. fences will be needed, gates will be needed, it will be loud, and it will cut off even more then SkyTrain would.

just because that one part of SkyTrain is in a highway median, that doesn't paint the whole picture of the Cambie Corridor, No. 3 Rd. corridor, and the greenway along the Expo-Line.

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Skytrain takes up space too but instead its over the street which can have impacts on developments which want to go over the street.

developments rarely go over streets, cities generally don't like that as it creates a tunnel; look at Expo Blvd by BC Place. it becomes somewhere no one wants to walk and where all the lights burn-out and it is in constant darkness.

but, if a development really wants to, they can build over, under, and around a SkyTrain viaduct. they aren't that big and creating a tunnel around that doesn't matter.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Cypherus

All I am stating that it is an obvious fact that the Lougheed Hwy skytrain corridor is sterile because RRT simply creates density at the stations only, leaving everything else along the way to be stagnated.

Funny, I'd say it's because Lougheed Highway is a highway. Developers appear more than happy to develop along the entire length of a metro/subway route, but they mostly leave expressways alone.

Originally Posted by Cypherus

The suggestion that LRT will have more stops and influence more development along the corridor is my point. As well, the fact that you show the Brentwood station down the road doesn't really mean anything, because skytrain has always created isolated nodes of density around the stations, which the city of Surrey thinks LRT will do more of with more stations along the network.

Originally Posted by Cypherus

We have a good business case that RRT does not galvanize change along its corridors unless there is a station that influences density. It's obvious developers will not build a condo if it is too far away from the station. On the other hand, the city of Surrey suggests LRT will create more livable communities along its LRT corridors because it will have more stations and more opportunities for streamlined development along the way. All told, I am suggesting there is two sides to the argument to LRT and RRT.

Let me (ahem) "stop" you right there. If you'll check the TransLink study, BRT, LRT and RRT all have identical station spacing, and it's spread pretty far. The only real difference is the commute time, and there, LRT is no better than the existing 96 B-Line.

As for SkyTrain only creating nodal pockets of high-rises, we should probably explain this to the developers along No. 3 and Cambie, since they appear to be doing it wrong; both are seeing various forms of densification all the way up and down the line, even if the property's not next to a station. Hell, Broadway doesn't even need rapid transit in order to densify.

Really, since they're in charge of zoning, the only thing stopping Surrey City Council from getting their walkable neighbourhoods is, well, themselves. And if they want localized transit to facilitate that, all they need is a better grid and more bus service. High-traffic corridors need rapid transit, not "semi-rapid densification catalysts."

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

From railway-technology.com

I am not sure where they got all their info from but it is not all correct.

3 March 2018
Surrey Light Rail Transit
Vancouver British Columbia - Surrey Light Rail Transit (LRT) is a new light rail network proposed to be constructed in Surrey, British Columbia, Canada.

To be developed in two phases, the 27 kilometre long LRT will have the capacity to cater to the needs of local commuters over the next 30 years.

The first phase of the project will involve the construction of a 10.5 kilometre long section between Newton, Surrey Central Station, and Guildford, while the second phase will extend the line from Surrey to Langley Centre.

Construction of the phase one is expected to start in 2018.

The project is a part of the ten-year Translink investment plan to meet long-term ridership demand until 2045.

Surrey LRT Phase One Details

Phase one of Surrey LRT will be 10.5 kilometre long line, which will start at the Newton Transit Exchange and continue to Surrey City Centre through King George Boulevard, and then along 104 Avenue and 102 Avenue before terminating at the Guildford Transit Exchange.

The LRT guideways will be built along the centre of 104 Avenue and King George Boulevard.

They will include two at-grade LRT tracks, which will be approximately 7.9 metres wide.

The line will feature 11 stops, seven of which will be regular LRT stops, and the remaining will be connected to transit exchanges.

Surrey LRT Phase Two Details

Phase two of the LRT line will be laid between King George Station and Langley City, along Fraser Highway.

It will be 16 kilometres long with eight LRT stops, connecting from Surrey Central to Langley Centre with a short elevated segment over the Langley Bypass and Canadian Pacific rail Corridor.

Surrey LRT Infrastructure

The project will involve the development of major infrastructure, including LRT alignment and guideways, LRT stops, an operation and maintenance facility (OMF), as well as power, control, and communication systems.

The platforms will initially be 40 metres long and can be extended up to 60 metres.

The side platforms will be up to 4 metres wide, while the centre platforms will have a maximum width of 7.2 metres.

The OMF will be situated in Newton and include a control and administration building, a maintenance building, traction power substation, operator's facility, service pits, and yard track.

The LRT stops will be designed with minimal footprint and feature wind/rain shelters, lighting, surveillance systems, emergency call boxes, and real-time way finding information systems.

Rolling Stock

A fleet of articulated single unit vehicles is planned to be introduced on the LRT system.

Each 30 metres long vehicle will have the capacity to carry more than 200 passengers.

The LRT vehicles will be powered by direct current (DC) motors fed by an overhead catenary system, which will be supplied from eight substations of 1 MW each, connected to the BC Hydro distribution system.

The LRT service with headway of five minutes is expected to be replace 96 B-Line transit services.

It will cover the 10.5 kilometres distance between Newton and Guildford terminals in approximately 27 minutes.

Benefits of Surrey Light Rail

The light rail project is expected to reduce congestion, increase transit network capacity, and protect the environment while improving connectivity along major routes in the city.

The project is expected to create 3,500 direct jobs and 2,000 indirect jobs.

It is also anticipated to support the creation of highly-skilled jobs in the fields of education, technology, and health services.

Contractors Involved

McElhanney Consulting Services and Stewart Group Strategic Consulting were contracted to provide advisory services for the project.

WestPro was awarded a $5 million contract to replace the existing Bear Creek Bridge.

The contract included the demolition of the existing bridge, installation of piles and deck, road widening, and associated improvements.

Construction began in January 2018 and is expected to take approximately ten months to complete.

Author unknown.

Don't know where this guy gets his information, but the technology for the Langley line has not been chosen yet.

This seems like a Surrey made fluff piece.

Also, what a stupid debate, not every corridor with skytrain / RRT running down it is going to be the same seeing how there are various forms of urban corridors that serve very different purposes.

The current form of Lougheed Highway between Lougheed Town Centre and Brentwood is not a "failure" due to Skytrain, it is a higher capacity road artery running alongside major greenbelts / a heavy railway corridor / industrial zones. It is exactly what it needs to be, not every road needs to be Robson Street.

As far as I am concerned this is also why Fraser Highway is perfect for Skytrain and not surface LRT, because it is a higher capacity inter regional road artery that connects several major nodes while running through wide swaths of ALR between them. Fraser Highway does not need to become Davie Street.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

As far as I am concerned this is also why Fraser Highway is perfect for Skytrain and not surface LRT, because it is a higher capacity inter regional road artery that connects several major nodes while running through wide swaths of ALR between them. Fraser Highway does not need to become Davie Street.

Is it bad that I kinda want to see somebody propose a Green Timbers redevelopment plan, just to watch all the environmentalists crucify them?

[nname]

Originally Posted by Cypherus

All I am stating that it is an obvious fact that the Lougheed Hwy skytrain corridor is sterile because RRT simply creates density at the stations only, leaving everything else along the way to be stagnated. We have a good business case that RRT does not galvanize change along its corridors unless there is a station that influences density.

Check out Gilmore-Brentwood-Holdom... or Metrotown-Patterson.... and maybe even Lougheed-Burquitlam and Lincoln-Lafarge

Whether it's a LRT or RRT doesn't really matter. What's matter is whether the city want to develop that area and zone it accordingly. It's a long distance between Lougheed and Burquitlam, but the City of Coquitlam wants to develop that strip, and we're starting to see high-density housing projects going up replacing the old apartments. If it's RRT going down Fraser, development is going to be focused at Fleetwood, Clayton, and Willowbrook-Langley. If it's LRT, development is still going to be focused at Fleetwood, Clayton, and Willowbrook-Langley. If the city wants to turn Fraser into a liner strip of urban jungle cutting right through Green Timber and ALR, there's nothing stopping (or helping) them from doing so whether it's LRT or RRT.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

The most important thing is to keep growing the system. If you look at Toronto and Montreal they also had similar booms in growth on their systems, but look at them now from the 70's to present neither has seem a significant expansion. Lets hope thats not Vancouver.

toronto is proposing a new single-stop tunnelled subway extension from Kennedy station to Scarborough Center at a cost est'd to be over $3 Billion. if completed, the 80's-era RT between kennedy and scarborough will be scrapped. the RT was the prototype for skytrain mk I trains, using operators to close the doors and press the "go" button; the run to the next station is otherwise automatic (like skytrain) to stop at the right spot and opening the doors.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by nname

Whether it's a LRT or RRT doesn't really matter. What's matter is whether the city want to develop that area and zone it accordingly. It's a long distance between Lougheed and Burquitlam, but the City of Coquitlam wants to develop that strip, and we're starting to see high-density housing projects going up replacing the old apartments. If it's RRT going down Fraser, development is going to be focused at Fleetwood, Clayton, and Willowbrook-Langley. If it's LRT, development is still going to be focused at Fleetwood, Clayton, and Willowbrook-Langley. If the city wants to turn Fraser into a liner strip of urban jungle cutting right through Green Timber and ALR, there's nothing stopping (or helping) them from doing so whether it's LRT or RRT.

Exactly. It's not some magical event happening around the stations - it's what the area is zoned for. A lot of the CoV Skytrain stations are surrounded by SFH and those stations are quieter than the ones surrounded by density and / or retail. It's not rocket science.

For the moment there's not much point in Surrey looking at zoning along Fraser Hwy as any variety of rail transit is far enough in the future to make it pointless. I wouldn't be surprised for them to start working on it when there's serious planning and funding in place for that line.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Is it bad that I kinda want to see somebody propose a Green Timbers redevelopment plan, just to watch all the environmentalists crucify them?

You mean after half of the environmentalists have massive heart attacks over the idea. They're freaking out over cutting down dying / dead trees to widen Fraser Hwy.