Rapid Transit in the Halifax area

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Thanks for your post! I'm curious about the NSLP/Halifax relationship worked. Growing up in Dartmouth, I remember riding on the electric trolleycoaches in Halifax but standard buses in Dartmouth. Do you know how all that worked, given that Dartmouth was its own city at the time?

I don't know all the details, but both the Halifax and Dartmouth bus services back then were privately owned and operated. NSL&P ran the trolley system, while a company known as Bell Buses ran the Dartmouth system. The Halifax trolleys served only the peninsula while the Dartmouth system was small and had very limited routes, using old (even for the time) GM diesel coaches.

Where it gets murky for me is what happened in 1970 when the systems were taken over by govt. I know Metro Transit was established and used a fleet of new-look GM buses, but I read in the HRM archives some Dartmouth city council minutes from the late 1970s where they approved purchase of a fleet of used buses from Victoria BC, which I could not understand. Maybe MT just ran the service and the city govts were responsible for buying the hardware. I just don't know.

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Thanks for your post! I'm curious about the NSLP/Halifax relationship worked. Growing up in Dartmouth, I remember riding on the electric trolleycoaches in Halifax but standard buses in Dartmouth. Do you know how all that worked, given that Dartmouth was its own city at the time?

Keith is right; both Halifax and Dartmouth's transit systems were independent and privately held until the 70s. I haven't done the research but my guess is ours were among the last privately-owned transit systems serving a major North American city.

In Dartmouth, a guy named Lawrence Bell operated the bus services from the early 20s until 1957. The service operated under L.M. Bell Ltd from 1927 then as Bell Busses Ltd. from around 1938. A company called DTS [Dartmouth Transit System] Buses Ltd. took over on April 1, 1957. I'm not sure about the ownership of that company. Both Bell and DTS painted their buses in a blue and white scheme. The City of Dartmouth took the system over in 1978 and operated it until the Metropolitan Authority launched Metro Transit in 1981.

NSLP was the direct descendent of the original street railway, which opened in 1866 as Halifax City Railroad Company. (Halifax, incidentally, was the fourth city in Canada with an integrated transit system, after Toronto, Montreal and Quebec City). The Halifax Electric Tramway Company completed the conversion from horse-powered cars to electric trams in 1896. The tram fleets were worn out and needed replacement after both world wars and, in 1949, NSLP replaced the trams with its bright yellow electric trolleycoaches. Halifax was, I think, the largest all-trolley system in North America before adding diesel buses in 1963. When the first Halifax Transit took over at the start of 1970, the system became all-diesel.

Leger and Lawrence's wonderful 1994 book Halifax – City of Trolleycoaches documents the painful negotiations between NSLP and Bell on who should have the right to traverse the McDonald bridge when it opened and how to share the fare revenue on transfers between the systems. NSLP won that right and Bell always maintained they were shortchanged on the revenue.

PS: This June marks the 150th anniversary of transit service in Halifax. I haven't heard a word about any plan by Metro Transit to commemorate the occasion.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

In Dartmouth, a guy named Lawrence Bell operated the bus services from the early 20s until 1957. The service operated under L.M. Bell Ltd from 1927 then as Bell Busses Ltd. from around 1938. A company called DTS [Dartmouth Transit System] Buses Ltd. took over on April 1, 1957. I'm not sure about the ownership of that company. Both Bell and DTS painted their buses in a blue and white scheme. The City of Dartmouth took the system over in 1978 and operated it until the Metropolitan Authority launched Metro Transit in 1981.

That clarifies things for me, thanks. I forgot that in 1970 it became Halifax Transit and was run by the city, and that Metro Transit didn't happen until the Metropolitan Authority was created 10 or so years later. That explains why the City of Dartmouth bought a bunch of used buses from B.C.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Thanks to both Keith and ns_kid for the education!

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Thanks to both Keith and ns_kid for the education!

You're welcome, ODMark. Not sure why I find this stuff so fascinating.

If you want a couple of related transit/urban infrastructure sidebars:

The arrival of those smoke-belching diesels to Halifax in 1963 was another legacy of the ever-popular Scotia Square. The trolley overhead had to come down on Barrington, Duke, Brunswick, Buckingham and Jacob Streets to allow construction to begin so buying GM "new look" TDH4519 buses was the best solution. NSLP also used the diesels to begin running charter services to areas the trolleys couldn't go.

Halifax Electric Tramway Company had its head office at 415 Barrington Street, now 1589 Barrington, built in 1916. Which is why the building is still called the Tramway Building. The company became the Nova Scotia Tramways and Power Company the following year and Nova Scotia Light and Power in 1928. NSLP moved its offices to the Capitol Theatre Building in 1930 and was there until 1970 when, you guessed it, they moved to Scotia Square (Duke Tower).

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

The arrival of those smoke-belching diesels to Halifax in 1963 was another consequence of the ever-popular Scotia Square. The trolley overhead had to come down on Barrington, Duke, Brunswick, Buckingham and Jacob Streets to allow construction to begin so buying GM "new look" TDH4519 buses was the best solution. NSLP also used the diesels to begin running charter services to areas the trolleys couldn't go.

That's not quite correct. Scotia Square didn't get underway until the late 1960s. I recall NSLP buying 12 (I think) diesels in '63. They were so clean, bright and modern as compared to the trolleys! They even had aqua-colored sparkle Formica on the ceilings. Aside from the charter opportunities, they were used to expand routes beyond the wired network. I seem to recall the original route 10 offering pretty much a tour of the city, from the Fairview Overpass area all the way downtown. I know they rewired the network to serve the Hfx Shopping Ctr but I think these were used there and at Simpson's across Mumford for a time as well.

[Ziobrop]

So Remember those Rail Diesel Cars that the last commuter rail report said would be viable? they all got scraped last week in Moncton after languishing there since they were disposed of by VIA in the early 90's..

So yah, thats out.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Ziobrop

So Remember those Rail Diesel Cars that the last commuter rail report said would be viable? they all got scraped last week in Moncton after languishing there since they were disposed of by VIA in the early 90's..

So yah, thats out.

HRM will have to go on the hunt for some even cheaper and more outdated vehicles.

Maybe some discarded Philippine tuk-tuk bodies could be mounted on some old railcar bogies?

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

That's not quite correct. Scotia Square didn't get underway until the late 1960s. I recall NSLP buying 12 (I think) diesels in '63. They were so clean, bright and modern as compared to the trolleys! They even had aqua-colored sparkle Formica on the ceilings. Aside from the charter opportunities, they were used to expand routes beyond the wired network. I seem to recall the original route 10 offering pretty much a tour of the city, from the Fairview Overpass area all the way downtown. I know they rewired the network to serve the Hfx Shopping Ctr but I think these were used there and at Simpson's across Mumford for a time as well.

Right you are, Keith. My memory, as is so often the case, is faulty. I checked Leger and Lawrence and NSLP's annual reports. NSLP did purchase 12 GM buses in 1963 to support a major route reorganization, trying to curb its growing losses. Two routes, 8 (downtown-Halifax Shopping Centre) and 10 (Armdale-Gottingen) became all diesel. Diesels were deployed on other routes, particularly on weekends. Scotia Square did figure in the plans -- NSLP was planning for an expected 1964 start to what it called the "redevelopment of the Jacob Street area" -- but the overhead did not finally come down until 1967 on Jacob Street and 1968 on Buckingham. In any case the reorganization did not produce the desired results. Ridership declined another 5.2 per cent in 1964.

[Drybrain]

Bousquet has a post this morning about how Halifax Transit is reneging on its plans to roll out more advanced payment systems, GPS, etc. I'm not entirely sure his conclusions follow from the evidence he presents, however, especially regarding GPS. Any transit nerds/experts with a better read on it?

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Ziobrop

So Remember those Rail Diesel Cars that the last commuter rail report said would be viable? they all got scraped last week in Moncton after languishing there since they were disposed of by VIA in the early 90's..

So yah, thats out.

Probably the best outcome. The refurbishing/maintenance costs would likely exceed the cost of buying new in the long run.

I'm still blown away that transit still doesn't seem to be taken seriously by HRM...

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

Right you are, Keith. My memory, as is so often the case, is faulty. I checked Leger and Lawrence and NSLP's annual reports. NSLP did purchase 12 GM buses in 1963 to support a major route reorganization, trying to curb its growing losses. Two routes, 8 (downtown-Halifax Shopping Centre) and 10 (Armdale-Gottingen) became all diesel. Diesels were deployed on other routes, particularly on weekends. Scotia Square did figure in the plans -- NSLP was planning for an expected 1964 start to what it called the "redevelopment of the Jacob Street area" -- but the overhead did not finally come down until 1967 on Jacob Street and 1968 on Buckingham. In any case the reorganization did not produce the desired results. Ridership declined another 5.2 per cent in 1964.

Thanks again, I find basically all aspects of Halifax's history to be fascinating, and particularly transit as I have an affinity for all machines that help people get around...

Feel free to keep the posts coming!

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by Ziobrop

So Remember those Rail Diesel Cars that the last commuter rail report said would be viable? they all got scraped last week in Moncton after languishing there since they were disposed of by VIA in the early 90's..

So yah, thats out.

The news is a little sad for those of us who remember riding the RDCs back in the day. In the 70s I was travelling for work to Kentville and New Glasgow and occasionally to Moncton and Saint John for meetings and enjoyed riding the RDCs though, to be honest, they were neither luxurious nor rapid. But I agree with ODMark: if we were to ever resolve as a community to jump into some form of commuter rail, there are several manufacturers of modern lightweight rail vehicles including Bombardier and Alstom that would be much more cost-effective and likely to succeed.

[curnhalio]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Bousquet has a post this morning about how Halifax Transit is reneging on its plans to roll out more advanced payment systems, GPS, etc. I'm not entirely sure his conclusions follow from the evidence he presents, however, especially regarding GPS. Any transit nerds/experts with a better read on it?

The mini-fleet test is underway and they are projecting to have all the buses outfitted by late February-early March. This should sort out the issue of only getting scheduled departures when calling GoTime. All of the bells and whistles associated with that end of it should be functional as well. I love the potential of all the information that this system should produce (passenger counts, tracking of travel times and how that relates to the printed schedule) but I worry about how that information will get misused by those who will eventually see it.

As for the fare box... well, a company that wins the tender will probably only budget for the things that are on the tender (such is life when you're legally obligated to take the lowest bidder ). So there likely will not be any less rudimentary payment options in the near future. Real-time bus info should still be attainable, but once it arrives you will still have to rip off a ticket or show your pass rather than swipe it.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by curnhalio

The mini-fleet test is underway and they are projecting to have all the buses outfitted by late February-early March. This should sort out the issue of only getting scheduled departures when calling GoTime. All of the bells and whistles associated with that end of it should be functional as well. I love the potential of all the information that this system should produce (passenger counts, tracking of travel times and how that relates to the printed schedule) but I worry about how that information will get misused by those who will eventually see it.

As for the fare box... well, a company that wins the tender will probably only budget for the things that are on the tender (such is life when you're legally obligated to take the lowest bidder ). So there likely will not be any less rudimentary payment options in the near future. Real-time bus info should still be attainable, but once it arrives you will still have to rip off a ticket or show your pass rather than swipe it.

I'm not sure if the experience here is typical but the implementation of these features as been a bit of a disaster in Vancouver.

The RFID cards here in particular probably weren't worth it. They arrived years later than planned, cost a lot to implement (maybe $100M+ now, not sure; they used to talk about $60M before the hugely slipped schedules), and actually resulted in worse usability of the system for a lot of people. Vancouver used to have essentially an honour system with spot checks that worked well. All you needed to do was carry a valid transit pass. Now you need to tap in and out everywhere and I won't be surprised if they still do the spot checks because the card-based system hasn't worked well enough yet that they've actually been able to leave all of the fare gates closed.

This will probably be considered a horrifying idea to some but I think Canadian cities should just move toward free to use, fully tax-supported transit services. A lot of American cities already do this for parts of their systems. Maybe special services like airport buses and long distance commuter rail could still have user fees. The advantage of getting people out of their cars probably outweighs the fares, it costs money to collect the fares, and the poorest people are hit hardest by the fare prices.

[Phalanx]

I've used RFID based passes in Montreal and Chicago, and never had or witnessed any problems with them personally. Granted, both were short term periods (~week or two at most), so my experience is limited.

Are these just teething problems in Vancouver? I also don't recall ever having to tap out of anywhere.

[IanWatson]

I have no burning need for RFID cards, but ticket machines in convenient places would be nice (bonus points for machines that take plastic payment).

The real-time GoTime is also high on my list of transit wants.

I get the feeling that Halifax Transit is trying to jump straight from 1980 to 2020. In a way I can see the allure of that, because you're not duplicating work. But it leads to a huge paralysis as you try to get all of the pieces of cutting-edge tech to play nice with each other. I think it'd be way more preferable for HT to focus on getting the system to the year 2010, and make people feel like SOME improvement is being made, rather than trying for the moon shot.

[Keith P.]

Imagine, in this day and age, a private business insisting on only cash or gift certificates as a form of payment.

This type of customer-facing service is what govt almost always does very, very poorly. Transit should be privately run.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Are they actively trying to not make money or increase ridership?

What a joke. This stuff should be done yesterday.

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Imagine, in this day and age, a private business insisting on only cash or gift certificates as a form of payment.

This type of customer-facing service is what govt almost always does very, very poorly. Transit should be privately run.

That's not fair... they also take loyalty cards (bus passes).