TriMet/Metro Southwest Corridor Planning (Portland to Bridgeport Village)

[2oh1]

Here's something people never talk about when discussing the rising costs of housing: Those who get priced out of their neighborhoods unintentionally feed the cycle by pricing out people in the neighborhoods they move into. It's a vicious cycle.

I have a friend we'll call Alice. Alice lived in Hollywood, not far from the theater. For years, she watched as prices were rising in her hood. Eventually, the sad day came when she couldn't afford the latest rent increase. She got priced out. I'm sure those of us who are old enough have all seen this happen to some of our friends, or even to some of us.

Alice & her husband moved further out toward 82nd, and she HATES it... but where else could she find a place big enough for them and her daughter? But think about it from the viewpoint of those who have been living near 82nd for years. They've been seeing more and more people like Alice moving into their neighborhood in recent times. And they've been seeing landlords jacking up the rent - because to newcomers like Alice, those places are a bargain.

Eventually, the people who've been living in Alice's new neighborhood for years may get priced out. And the cycle continues.

I'm not going to pretend there are easy answers. I hope nobody else does either. Developers are usually going to chase the upper market rate and luxury housing segments because that's where the dollars are, and developers making money is an important part of a strong economy. But I firmly believe a major part of the dealing with the issue of escalating housing costs will need to be keeping the economy strong and adding some forms of either incentives or requirements to include affordable housing into new development.

[2oh1]

Soleri - you nailed it.

[58rhodes]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

soleri - you nailed it.

yep!

[65MAX]

Finally!! Some sensible discussion.

Too bad it's in the wrong thread, but a lot of threads got hijacked, so....

Regarding the SW Corridor, I still think an all-day, every day electric shuttle bus or even a full blown people mover to and from the 53rd and Barbur Station is a far better solution for serving PCC-Sylvania than spending 100's of millions on a tunnel there. Any tunneling in the Corridor needs to happen under OHSU before it happens anywhere else.

[hat]

Originally Posted by 58rhodes

yep!

Agreed. How in the hell do we both redevelop neighborhoods AND keep people (and existing businesses) in their place without pricing them out? I have a rudimentary understanding of inclusionary zoning, but often zoning doesn't include businesses as well.

Developers should be required to include the existing residents and businesses of an area when redeveloping, but how this happens and to what extent, I have no clue.

[58rhodes]

Originally Posted by hat

Agreed. How in the hell do we both redevelop neighborhoods AND keep people (and existing businesses) in their place without pricing them out? I have a rudimentary understanding of inclusionary zoning, but often zoning doesn't include businesses as well.

Developers should be required to include the existing residents and businesses of an area when redeveloping, but how this happens and to what extent, I have no clue.

I think Portland's best bet for developing affordable housing is to create a small city atmosphere east of 82nd with retail, industry,housing, mass transit. But building large quantities of blocky apts will only lead to bad things. They have to develop a village like feel. If the developments are nice it could attract people from all over the city to the area. Of course over time that will become expensive too.If the city could do something for the infrastructure I think developers could and would use private money to build.

[58rhodes]

Also keep in mind that there are still many areas in established hoods that still have room for housing. Portland is not completely full yet

[2oh1]

We've got a fantastic conversation here, but as mentioned previously, it's off topic... which means we could really use a thread for affordable housing. So... please join me in:

The Affordable Housing Thread.

Mods: any chance we can move the off topic housing posts into that thread? I'd really like to keep the conversation going.

P.S. 58rhodes

Originally Posted by 58rhodes

Also keep in mind that there are still many areas in established hoods that still have room for housing. Portland is not completely full yet

Absolutely. Not only is Portland not full yet, in your previous comment, you hinted at an approach that has already worked in underdeveloped areas where new investment brings new affordable housing too, such as The Pearl (underdeveloped in the 1990s), SoWa (a decade later), and hopefully it will happen in inner SE as well.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by hat

So, I'm not an engineer or architect. To me the cut and cover idea seems a little overboard for one simple reason: the train will pass within 1500 ft of the campus even if it follows Barbur. I know it's a bit hilly (I actually went to Sylvania for my first couple years of college), but I'm not sure what impediments there are to simply putting a station on Barbur below campus. Anyone know why this–with improvements in sidewalks–isn't being considered? With a shuttle that runs every ten minutes traveling the 1500 ft, perhaps a much cheaper solution can be had?

In this case perhaps parts of Lesser park can make room for expansion toward the station while returning some of the vast parking lots to some state of non-desert.

The best thing for PCC would be to simply run shuttle buses to and from the campus to the future station.



Also, can we not have every damn thread be about density??!! This is obnoxious to see so many threads all going on about the same thing, this isn't City-Data, take this crap over to that site where no one is trying to have an educated discussion and leave this site alone. Now lets all get back to topic with every thread here.

[babs]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

The best thing for PCC would be to simply run shuttle buses to and from the campus to the future station.

It's been proven that proximity to transportation impacts ridership. While I agree the cost to tunnel to PCC Sylvania is crazy expensive, the flip side is that if you don't ridership will never reach its full potential. That's the trade off here. Save a bunch of money and avoid PCC. Or spend the money for a more riders.

Happy that I'm not the one making this decision.

[dubu]

We probably will never have a max along 217 to i5. This max going over a hill thing is more like a streetcar. I'd be down for a subway that goes from downtown to PCC though

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by babs

It's been proven that proximity to transportation impacts ridership. While I agree the cost to tunnel to PCC Sylvania is crazy expensive, the flip side is that if you don't ridership will never reach its full potential. That's the trade off here. Save a bunch of money and avoid PCC. Or spend the money for a more riders.

Happy that I'm not the one making this decision.

I just don't see a community college being that important to connect light rail to directly because of the cost. If we were talking about a university like PSU, then I would agree with you, but in the case of PCC a shuttle bus line would be the most realistic idea.

[davehogan]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

Here's something people never talk about when discussing the rising costs of housing: Those who get priced out of their neighborhoods unintentionally feed the cycle by pricing out people in the neighborhoods they move into. It's a vicious cycle.

I got priced out of NW, so I moved to Sellwood. I got priced out of Sellwood, so I moved elsewhere in SE. That place turned out to have a terrible landlord, so I moved to close in NE. That was expensive and a long commute, so I found a place in Westmoreland. That place got sold so I moved to Brooklyn. That place just got sold so I have to move again.

And that's just since 2011. There's something wrong with a cycle that creates situations where people move six times in four years just trying to keep a place that's reasonably affordable and within a car-free commute. It's nice that we think that Portland offers that, but it's becoming more and more impossible to actually deliver that.

[colganc]

Originally Posted by davehogan

I got priced out of NW, so I moved to Sellwood. I got priced out of Sellwood, so I moved elsewhere in SE. That place turned out to have a terrible landlord, so I moved to close in NE. That was expensive and a long commute, so I found a place in Westmoreland. That place got sold so I moved to Brooklyn. That place just got sold so I have to move again.

And that's just since 2011. There's something wrong with a cycle that creates situations where people move six times in four years just trying to keep a place that's reasonably affordable and within a car-free commute. It's nice that we think that Portland offers that, but it's becoming more and more impossible to actually deliver that.

Move to a place rigt next to MAX and treat it as a moving sidewalk? I'm not familiar with non-inner Portland eastside MAx stop areas but on the westsde I know its possible to make it work. you could do it relatively cheaply too.

MAX to PCC may make sense, but where do most of the students currently come from for that campus? If inner Porland is too expensive for students why would having MAX come fom downtown be all that useful for decreasing traffic and increasing convenience for students? I expect most students going to that PCC location are from the westside.

[babs]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

I just don't see a community college being that important to connect light rail to directly because of the cost. If we were talking about a university like PSU, then I would agree with you, but in the case of PCC a shuttle bus line would be the most realistic idea.

How is a university different from a community college? Due to the way they are structured, many of the classes are only offered at one campus or another. It's not like they only draw from the immediate neighborhood. In fact, at a college many of the students live on or near campus. That's not the case at a community college. Especially one that serves such a vast area of Portland such as PCC.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by babs

How is a university different from a community college? Due to the way they are structured, many of the classes are only offered at one campus or another. It's not like they only draw from the immediate neighborhood. In fact, at a college many of the students live on or near campus. That's not the case at a community college. Especially one that serves such a vast area of Portland such as PCC.

Community colleges tend to be small two year schools that are easier access to the communities they serve. A university tend to be undergrad and grad schools that are designed to serve more than just the community and the city, but the state.

[dubu]

It would be good if there was one community college with light rail though

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by dabom

It would be good if there was one community college with light rail though

Absolutely.

In a perfect world, community colleges would be as close to the heart of the communities they serve, and they'd have excellent access to mass transit - especially light rail. That was a major point in the recent conversation that kept getting shouted down by one member recently. The discussion was about the cost of building a tunnel for MAX to reach PCC Sylvania, and whether that money could be more wisely spent by moving the school rather than building a tunnel. Does PCC Sylvania really have the best location in terms of serving students in SW? The fact that its campus is isolated clearly proves its location is removed from its community. In a perfect world, community colleges would be located in the communities they serve, and they'd have excellent access to mass transit - especially light rail.

[58rhodes]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

Absolutely.

In a perfect world, community colleges would be as close to the heart of the communities they serve, and they'd have excellent access to mass transit - especially light rail. That was a major point in the recent conversation that kept getting shouted down by one member recently. The discussion was about the cost of building a tunnel for MAX to reach PCC Sylvania, and whether that money could be more wisely spent by moving the school rather than building a tunnel. Does PCC Sylvania really have the best location in terms of serving students in SW? The fact that its campus is isolated clearly proves its location is removed from its community. In a perfect world, community colleges would be located in the communities they serve, and they'd have excellent access to mass transit - especially light rail.

It would require voter funding to move it

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by 58rhodes

It would require voter funding to move it

Oh, I realize it wouldn't happen, for a variety of reasons. I just thought it made for an interesting conversation.