Herongate Mall Conversion

[Sens1992]

The site plan of the New Herongate Mall setup is up: http://www.trinity-group.com/?q=node/460 Looks like Herongate is getting rid of its indoor mall.

[Ottawan]

But how could they destroy the habitat of those trees that grow in indoor planters?

Seriously though: this is a real misuse of a site that should have intensification and mixed-use written all over it. If the City is serious about using the Baseline/Heron Corridor as a major transit route, and of doing the same with the Alta Vista Parkway if/when it is built, the last thing that should go here is another box mall. It is adjascent to high-density residential AND to the Ottawa Business Park. A well thought-out redevelopment of this space could help bring up the quality of life for the Heron Gate/Heatherington residents, but this certainly will not.

[waterloowarrior]

the work starts this summer
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/sto...development-for-large-retail-stores.html

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Ottawan

Seriously though: this is a real misuse of a site that should have intensification and mixed-use written all over it. If the City is serious about using the Baseline/Heron Corridor as a major transit route, and of doing the same with the Alta Vista Parkway if/when it is built, the last thing that should go here is another box mall. It is adjascent to high-density residential AND to the Ottawa Business Park. A well thought-out redevelopment of this space could help bring up the quality of life for the Heron Gate/Heatherington residents, but this certainly will not.

What he said.

God forbid a developer attempt to create a walkable mixed use urban environment rather than capitalizing on one that already exists.


Don't worry, though: the residents of Westboro and the Glebe and a few other select neighbourhoods are always there to carry the can of intensification for the rest of the city.

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by Dado

What he said.

God forbid a developer attempt to create a walkable mixed use urban environment rather than capitalizing on one that already exists.

Don't worry, though: the residents of Westboro and the Glebe and a few other select neighbourhoods are always there to carry the can of intensification for the rest of the city.

I'm sure most of us would agree with Ottawan's comment, but creating a new high density mixed use community here would be in the hundreds of millions.... not too many Ottawa developers are big enough or would be interested in that risk beside Heatherington Road.

Developers are building in Westboro because lots of people want to live there... could a developer create something like that here? Maybe... but could they sell thousands of units in Herongate and fill all the retail space needed for a good mixed use community? I think it can be done, but I don't know if there is the right developer out there to do it right now.... I think there are other underutilized sites (e.g. Carlingwood, Lincoln Fields, Billings Bridge) that will be tackled before Ottawa developers will take on a site like this.

Here's a potential model in Toronto in a lower end neighbourhood http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread....nce-Av-W-Dufferin-Lanterra-15-20-24s-P-S)

[Dado]

Well they're not even trying across the road from Carlingwood at Fairlawn Plaza and Carlingwood-the-mall itself does not appear to be in any danger of disappearing any time soon anyway. Any redevelopment in the Carlingwood area will be limited to infilling Carlingwood's parking lots.

The point remains that Ottawa's intensification policies really aren't about intensification. They only get enforced when they are favourable to developers. The point of intensification - at least in theory - is to reduce the outward spread of the city and the costs of serving development by leveraging existing infrastructure and using underused land within the city more intensively. Related goals are to increase the viability of alternate modes of transport by reducing the need for a car and to help rejuvenate areas by increasing their density. But what we see in practise is intensification used to justify condo projects in the few areas that are already mixed use and walkable.

If intensification policies can be used by developers to push through projects, then those same policies should be used to stop ones that don't further those goals. If the policies don't allow that, then they should be rewritten so they can. This proposal actually has the effect of making the site less dense and less walkable (for all their other faults, at least malls are intended for walking) than it already is.

This location already has lots of people living nearby in high density residential, so I doubt any developer would actually have trouble finding people to live there. They might have trouble convincing people to pay megabucks for a condo, but intensification is not about building high-priced condos.

But I think you've touched on the key point in all this: Ottawa's developers really just aren't up to it. By the way, I wrote most of this last night but left it until today to post it so as to give it a reread before posting it... and this morning I read in the Citizen Councillor Hume going on about Ottawa's "insular" and uncreative developers passing up opportunities at sites like Train Yards and Laurentian HS.

[Ottawan]

Originally Posted by Dado

If intensification policies can be used by developers to push through projects, then those same policies should be used to stop ones that don't further those goals. If the policies don't allow that, then they should be rewritten so they can. This proposal actually has the effect of making the site less dense and less walkable (for all their other faults, at least malls are intended for walking) than it already is.

Yes! This is one of my greatest frustrations with how the City manages intensification.

This location already has lots of people living nearby in high density residential, so I doubt any developer would actually have trouble finding people to live there. They might have trouble convincing people to pay megabucks for a condo, but intensification is not about building high-priced condos.

Exactly. I don't expect any developer to build the highest-end sort of development here. But they must be able to build a decent, walkable development here at a profit. It would not be as easy or as quick as converting an indoor mall into a "smart" or "power" (read: stupid) centre, but it actually has the potential to make for a greater return for the developer as well as the City.

Intensification cannot be just about building high-end condos. It must be about building functional, walkable, mixed-use communities at a variety of price-points.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Ottawan

Intensification cannot be just about building high-end condos. It must be about building functional, walkable, mixed-use communities at a variety of price-points.

If we stopped overcharging redevelopers in old, established neighbourhoods, and stopped subsidizing greenfield developers on the fringes, we'd have a chance of getting that.

Until the playing field is levelled, and the perverse incentives and corrupting disincentives are removed, we won't.

[waterloowarrior]

from Diane Deans' website
http://dianedeans.com/community_news_events.php

September 13, 2012

Herongate Mall Re-development – 1670 Heron Road

I would like to provide an update on the Herongate Mall re-development project as I have recently received some new information on its progress. Even though this shopping centre is not within the Gloucester-Southgate ward boundaries I know it is of interest to many residents because of its close proximity to Gloucester-Southgate ward.

I have learned that there will be five new buildings constructed in the mall re-development. The Food Basics store will remain in its current location and will have general façade work done once the rest of the mall has been demolished. The pedestrian crosswalk across Walkley Road will remain in place and the Planning Branch has assured me that there will be a future sidewalk connection, with a crosswalk, leading to the new front door of the Food Basics store for enhanced pedestrian safety.

The building currently under construction at the Walkley Road south corner of the site will house a Rexall Pharmacy; the future building on the north side of the site off of the Heron Road entrance will be a Scotiabank, and they are both scheduled to be completed by March 2013. There will be a future building adjacent to the Scotiabank off of Heron Road, but the tenant and completion date have not been determined. The largest building on the northwest edge of the site has no scheduled construction date at this time as well. Lastly, there is a small building to be located at the Walkley Road main entrance which will house a barbershop, dentist and a Subway Restaurant slated to be completed prior to any future mall demolition.

here's the Trinity site, not updated with these new retailers yet
http://www.trinity-group.com/properties/.../ottawa-on/herongate-mall-redevelopment/

[canabiz]

I was in this mall today and man was it ever dead, only a few stores are open, most are boarded up and the general atmosphere was pretty depressing. I used to come here quite a bit before as a lot of friends worked for Convergys but it's about time they do something for this mall.

Not sure what retailers will want to set up shop here as the area does not exactly have the greatest rep.

[Harley613]

I was in shock today when I drove by Heron Gate Mall...because there was no Heron Gate Mall!!!

[J.OT13]

What, no heritage protection?

[Harley613]

Buildings in Ottawa are only heritage buildings if they are to be replaced with new buildings over 10 stories.

[S-Man]

Buildings in Ottawa are only heritage buildings if they are to be replaced with new buildings over 10 stories.

Like the Ogilvy Building - being replaced by something two floors shorter.

Cynical!

[lrt's friend]

Demolition began in late May and was completed (with the exception of the clean up) at the end of July. It is sad how little has replaced the old mall so far especially considering how desirable local shopping is to a fairly dense lower income neighbourhood where many are dependent on transit. But these days, retailers are more attracted to those mega big box malls that require a car to reach.

[drawarc]

Regarding Herongate mall, old Citizen article about it's opening in 1981:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=T6M...,2352145&dq=herongate+mall+opening&hl=en

[mac_junkie1]

I absolutely loved the Ogilvy's building, hence why I'm writing a book about it, but the place looked like crap in the end. It was in bad condition when it was still inhabited. Robinson's didn't even use all 5 floors, because the building was in dire need of renovations in the late 80s-early 90s. I'm really glad the facade is being rebuilt using original original enough bricks (1916). The new look is different, but we've seen it as 5 floors for awhile now. Now lets see it in its original vision from 1906. This will be great... I went thru the place in Dec 2012... It was beyond help :'(

Originally Posted by S-Man

Like the Ogilvy Building - being replaced by something two floors shorter.

Cynical!

[mac_junkie1]

this place didn't need heritage protection. it was a cool mall, and could've been remodeled better, but this place has been pretty much all closed since 2010-2011. the mall stopped signing new contracts a long time ago. they should've kept a bigger part for indoor and outdoor shopping, but whatever.... what can we do. it was old, but not worth saving.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

What, no heritage protection?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by mac_junkie1

this place didn't need heritage protection. it was a cool mall, and could've been remodeled better, but this place has been pretty much all closed since 2010-2011. the mall stopped signing new contracts a long time ago. they should've kept a bigger part for indoor and outdoor shopping, but whatever.... what can we do. it was old, but not worth saving.

The heritage comment was just a smart ass remark; I never thought that building was worth anything to anyone.

Warning: the following is a rant that is way off topic, but needs to be said.

I'm starting to think you either work for the City, Cadillac Fairview or that you might be Barry Padolsky.

The Ogilvy building was not beyond saving. If anything, it would have been a simple heritage renovation compared to many others. Sure it was missing a few bricks and some of the spandrels were badly damaged, but the Besserer façade (since the expansion would have covered it anyway) would have provided plenty of spare parts.

The interior just needed a good cleanup. It just looked bad because a. it was gutted and b. broken windows exposed the interior to weather, pigeons and other wildlife.

Structurally, the place was as solid as ever, possibly even more solid than a lot of modern buildings. No one has ever indicated otherwise. If it was unsound, CF, Padolsky and the City would have used that as a reason for demolition. The steel frame also made it earthquake resistant, so no need for a retro fit.

As for the "time to see the building as it originally was", I would like to point out that Charles Ogilvy made sure it was built for expansion; he approved every single one up to its 5 floor rendition. That was Ogilvy's building, our building; we can't just tear down a building and partially rebuild to an earlier rendition because we are tired of the same old thing. That is the point of a heritage structure, to give people a snap shot of the good old times when things were built with great designs and built to last . Now, we will never be able to bring it back to 1934. And with the wall "hanging" on the Rideau Centre, I bet it will be completely lost within 50 years and the Rideau Centre won't last anywhere close to 100 years.

The only reason the City rubber stamp the demolition was because they didn't want to piss off CF. Yet, they don't seem to care about pissing off Melnyk, who owns the most important private business in the city. That I don't understand.

All across Canada, buildings in much worse condition are given new life. I recommend reading the "Great Canadian Heritage Restoration" thread. Here is a link;

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=203463

I know that it is gone and I know it won't come back and I know I am one to say "get over it" on other issues, but this will forever piss me off. I'm sick and tired of people justifying the demolition. I'm not targeting you in particular mac_junkie1, I'm talking about the City; I wrote a letter to save it in November and used it as an example of an epic fail heritage issue while trying to convince the City to put a heritage designation on St-Charles. Both times they justified that "oh yes, you will be happy to know that we are saving the original façade which will have a prominent place on the Rideau expansion". I know that you a** h****, but that is shit compared to saving the whole building, one of our last privately owned landmarks.

Heritage is more than a quarter of a façade hanging on a mall, it is the structure, the foundation, the space created, the space built and enjoyed by one of the city's greatest business men. In the meantime, we will keep spending millions moving ho-hum old buildings like the ones on Sussex and the Horticulture. We will also fight to save a brick shell that used to be a school on Cumberland.

That's another thing, anyone notice that the City never really cared about heritage neglect until after the Ogilvy was demolished? What's up with that?

[J.OT13]

And another thing, H&M wanted to come into the Ottawa market for 10 years and Simons for what, 5 years? Why was the Rideau Centre lying their asses off about not having space when they could have restored the Ogilvy? I'm sure an Ogilvy restoration would have been much less expensive per square feet the massive overhaul of the old Sears building in Vancouver; now that should have been a demolish and rebuild job.