Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion - Page 190

mr.x · #**3781** Posted **Sep 3, 2009, 7:02 AM**

^ to be fair, we saw the Expo Line extended in the early-90s.

Still, these projects are long overdue.

ravman · #**3782** Posted **Sep 3, 2009, 7:13 AM**

meh.... they will get started when there is an election nearby... mayors would be 2011, prov 2013 fed

( does anyone really know)

so i would guesstimate and say that 2012 will be start date of construction based on this.... so that would be another 2yr delay in the best possible situation....

or take the 390 million from BC PLACE, add a few millions, = BOOOOM Evergreen Line

The_Henry_Man · #**3783** Posted **Sep 3, 2009, 1:44 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLC

Forget TransLink's big ticket expansion for now
http://www.bclocalnews.com/news/56748447.html

If Transit is this short of money, then instead of raising taxes here and there, we should first look at the bus drivers union and demand massive pay cuts to bus drivers. They currently earn way too much for its worth (around $22/month is it? Many professional careers that require university education earn just a tad higher that that) and it definitely partly contributes to this Translink mess. Same goes with union bosses. I won't be surprised if significant savings can be made in this area that will cover their current financial windfalls.

Unions will never be efficient. Get over it. If they can't make concessions like this in a difficult economy. Get rid of it. I can't believe UBC even has an union for their Teaching Assistants (for god's sake, they're students. They should work and study hard for their careers, not getting another pay raise every single time they go on strike. Just breads laziness). I'm a TA myself at an US university and we don't EVEN have an union. Yet do I whine and complain like the TA's at UBC who are in unions did back in 2003 and went on strike? Course not, because I totally appreciate my job no matter what. I worked hard for it, so I got the job. So, I enjoy it and I try to learn as much as possible from it. Everytime I think about the TA union at UBC and being a TA here in the US right now, I find it hard to believe. Sorry for my rambling.

twoNeurons · #**3784** Posted **Sep 3, 2009, 2:18 PM**

What makes a job that requires a University Education automatically worth more than a bus driver?

If you graduate with a science degree and end up doing product testing as a lab assistant for example. You spend your days putting materials into little machines and compiling results together. A nice, easy, boring job.

Compare that to a bus driver, who functions as the lifeblood of the city's transportation network, is responsible for the lives of hundreds of people, has to deal with all kind of crap. I don't think we can say just because he didn't go through 4 years of University, his job should pay less. They do receive training, it's just on-the-job and constant. We should be happy that we have so many people willing to stay on as drivers with so much experience. I can't recall the last time there was ever any news story about some crazy bus driver with no training who caused an accident or hit anyone.

Personally, I chose the Uni Degree/non-Trades route, but I have a healthy respect for the skill many of these trades have. Sure, there are losers out there, but then there are also lazy "white-collar" workers too.

Okay, that's my rant. I reserve the right not to be coherent.

Unions are very efficient at keeping skilled labour paid well, because generally the ones who control the paychecks have less respect ( or perhaps jealousy? ) for the skilled jobs that they can't ( or won't ) do and didn't require throwing thousands of dollars down the toilet on a University Education that nets you a whopping $16/hour. I'm not saying education is useless, but there is room for all kinds of workers, some apprenticeships, some management, some clerks...etc.

Gordon · #**3785** Posted **Sep 3, 2009, 2:58 PM**

Hopefully when it comes time for the Mayors Council to vote on the the 10year Plan they will at least see fit to okay the 130m\yr plan because to go bace to 70's frequencies would be totally unacceptable to everyone.

I don't see why a Vehicle Levy could be brought in now and be replaced with congestion charges & tolls at a point when the provincial government would be more confortable passing that sort of thing.

It's about time the provincial government stepped up to the plate & funded transit porperly.

DKaz · #**3786** Posted **Sep 3, 2009, 3:03 PM**

For the responsibility of getting passengers to their destinations safely and on time while also dealing with crap from passengers who think its their right as a fare paying (or non-fare paying) passenger to abuse the drivers whether physically or mentally, I think they're paid a fare wage.

Contractors are paid quite well and many of them don't have anything more than maybe an apprenticeship education from BCIT at best with a lot of them just jumping right in from the lowest level job as a kid/young adult (the kid from Gran Torino for example), do you think they're overpaid?

metroXpress · #**3787** Posted **Sep 3, 2009, 3:15 PM**

If they are unable to expand the system, they won't be getting more people off their cars. For example, Surrey is growing fast (with 800 people moving to the city every month.) What is their best way to travel in the region?

Also, how can you expect families to take the transit for trips in the region when, for example, a family of 5 (2 adults, 3 kids), travelling for 3 zones, would cost (2.50+2.50+1.75+1.75+1.75) * 2 = $20.5 (and this is the price for weekend...)

We probably have the most expensive system in the world....

WarrenC12 · #**3788** Posted **Sep 3, 2009, 3:50 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Compare that to a bus driver, who functions as the lifeblood of the city's transportation network, is responsible for the lives of hundreds of people, has to deal with all kind of crap. I don't think we can say just because he didn't go through 4 years of University, his job should pay less. They do receive training, it's just on-the-job and constant. We should be happy that we have so many people willing to stay on as drivers with so much experience. I can't recall the last time there was ever any news story about some crazy bus driver with no training who caused an accident or hit anyone.

So by your logic, taxi cabs should unionize. That would probably double the fares we pay now. Thanks, but no thanks.

If you had ever run a company or seen the internal numbers, you'll know that employees are a huge part of the expense of any business. Take a look at Translink's payroll numbers and compare that to their funding shortfall.

I'm not saying bus drivers are overpaid necessarily, but you have to operate in reality, and unions are trying to operate about 50 years ago.

Every time I hear some union complaining about wages and wanting raises in this economy I want to snap.

WarrenC12 · #**3789** Posted **Sep 3, 2009, 3:57 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allen

Also, how can you expect families to take the transit for trips in the region when, for example, a family of 5 (2 adults, 3 kids), travelling for 3 zones, would cost (2.50+2.50+1.75+1.75+1.75) * 2 = $20.5 (and this is the price for weekend...)

We probably have the most expensive system in the world....

That will seem like a steal when the PMB tolling is in effect. What are you comparing it to anyway? You're using cash fares, the most expensive way to travel, and have no comparison to other modes of transportation (specifically, cars).

Just because people don't pay every time they start their cars, they seem to think it's somehow cheaper than public transit. Cars are way more expensive when you factor in capital cost (purchase), gas, insurance, repairs, etc. It's just a fact.

Regarding prices, check here for a comparison. http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/07/subway-fares-around-the-world.php

Granted there are a lot of variables (zones, peak, etc.) but we are somewhere in the middle.

I'll be in Rome in a few weeks, paying about $25 Cdn for a 7 day Metro pass. Rome only has 2 subway lines (and a bunch of other non-bus transit). I'll let you know if it's worth the premium over Vancouver's transit system.

DKaz · #**3790** Posted **Sep 3, 2009, 5:25 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allen

Also, how can you expect families to take the transit for trips in the region when, for example, a family of 5 (2 adults, 3 kids), travelling for 3 zones, would cost (2.50+2.50+1.75+1.75+1.75) * 2 = $20.5 (and this is the price for weekend...)

On Sundays, up to two adults and four children can ride on a single bus pass.

SpongeG · #**3791** Posted **Sep 3, 2009, 5:57 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr.x

^ that amounts to about $900-million of the $1.4-billion....not sure how far they would get.

halfway is better than none

cabotp · #**3792** Posted **Sep 3, 2009, 5:58 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Just because people don't pay every time they start their cars, they seem to think it's somehow cheaper than public transit. Cars are way more expensive when you factor in capital cost (purchase), gas, insurance, repairs, etc. It's just a fact.

Actually I believe that the cost of running a personal vehicle is still too cheap and I drive every day and take transit maybe once a year. I firmly believe they should raise the gas taxes. Toll all the bridges at maybe $0.50 - $1 each way. (except for the downtown bridges ie Burrard, Granville, Cambie). And some how implement a road usage toll. So that people who don't cross any bridge (like me) still have to pay somehow to drive. Of course I realize nobody would like this

dreambrother808 · #**3793** Posted **Sep 3, 2009, 6:58 PM**

great post

Quote:

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

What makes a job that requires a University Education automatically worth more than a bus driver?

If you graduate with a science degree and end up doing product testing as a lab assistant for example. You spend your days putting materials into little machines and compiling results together. A nice, easy, boring job.

Compare that to a bus driver, who functions as the lifeblood of the city's transportation network, is responsible for the lives of hundreds of people, has to deal with all kind of crap. I don't think we can say just because he didn't go through 4 years of University, his job should pay less. They do receive training, it's just on-the-job and constant. We should be happy that we have so many people willing to stay on as drivers with so much experience. I can't recall the last time there was ever any news story about some crazy bus driver with no training who caused an accident or hit anyone.

Personally, I chose the Uni Degree/non-Trades route, but I have a healthy respect for the skill many of these trades have. Sure, there are losers out there, but then there are also lazy "white-collar" workers too.

Okay, that's my rant. I reserve the right not to be coherent.

Unions are very efficient at keeping skilled labour paid well, because generally the ones who control the paychecks have less respect ( or perhaps jealousy? ) for the skilled jobs that they can't ( or won't ) do and didn't require throwing thousands of dollars down the toilet on a University Education that nets you a whopping $16/hour. I'm not saying education is useless, but there is room for all kinds of workers, some apprenticeships, some management, some clerks...etc.

ozonemania · #**3794** Posted **Sep 3, 2009, 7:03 PM**

If we had turnstiles at the Skytrain stations all along, I'm sure the financial situation for Vancouver transit wouldn't be so dire today.

mr.x · #**3795** Posted **Sep 3, 2009, 7:06 PM**

^ Translink would probably see tens and tens of millions in more revenues if it had fare gates...

dreambrother808 · #**3796** Posted **Sep 3, 2009, 7:07 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

you have to operate in reality, and unions are trying to operate about 50 years ago.

Specific examples of specific unions demanding unfair raises and wages is fine, but making vague, blanket statements about unions as a whole based upon such large generalisations is unfair and inaccurate, in my opinion.

WarrenC12 · #**3797** Posted **Sep 3, 2009, 7:08 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabotp

Actually I believe that the cost of running a personal vehicle is still too cheap and I drive every day and take transit maybe once a year. I firmly believe they should raise the gas taxes. Toll all the bridges at maybe $0.50 - $1 each way. (except for the downtown bridges ie Burrard, Granville, Cambie). And some how implement a road usage toll. So that people who don't cross any bridge (like me) still have to pay somehow to drive. Of course I realize nobody would like this

I would like to see the cost increased as well. Two main problems:

1) Tough to implement a pay per use system. Ideally insurance and taxes would be a per km thing. Gas taxes are good but an imperfect system.

2) You can't over-penalize people who don't have an alternative. I like the carbon tax for example but do have some sympathy for people outside Metro Vancouver.